New ish DM here and was looking to even the playing field for our group. About to start "Hoard of the Dragon Queen". Looking for any feed back. Hope you like/agree.
Grappling from the air.
A2 + B2 =C2… Pythagorean theorem
A (Height of creature) =50
B (Distance on ground) =75
C (Length of rope) =90
A 100ft rope is needed for this equation. 10ft to be used to grapple the creature.
75ft radius for the rope to be thrown at an angle of 45 degrees. 75ft to be broken down into 3 ranges. Within 25ft of creature: armor class vs attack.
Within 25ft of creature: armor class vs attack.
25ft+ of creature: Flying creature gets +1 to armor class.
50ft+ of creature: Attacker rolls with disadvantage.
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a Special melee Attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them.
The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach(rope length using geometry listed abpove). Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an Attack roll: a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, you subject the target to the Grappled condition (see Conditions ). The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
Escaping a Grapple: A Grappled creature can use its action to Escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) check. OR… A ranged attack with free hand or mouth that can damage or destroy the rope being used to grapple. Keeping in mind the cone of attack… May or may not hit any creature with the direction of attack.
If creature fails to escape grapple the next turn (speed reduced to zero) or is grappled by two other creatures, it falls to the ground and its next turn is used for grapple escape and is prone position.
The flying creature is subject to a falling damage/saving throw.
Creature shall make a dexterity saving throw. If successful, creature takes half damage. If Dex-saving throw fails, creature takes full damage of 3d6+4 bludgeoning damage.
Moving a Grappled Creature: When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
I wouldn't go with grappling for this. A grapple is a special melee attack that is resolved via a contested Strength check. I'm all on board with pulling a roped flying critter down to the ground needing some kind of Strength check, but the roping part is ranged and you're not really using a weapon (a thrown weapon would allow for Strength to be applied to the attack roll) - I think that should be Dex based.
I also don't see why the "attack with free hand or mouth that can damage or destroy the rope being used" would be a ranged attack.
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I used grapple to make it fair on both sides. I tried to think of actions taken during play... some might say a flying creature could dodge or use a saving throw from being grappled. I wasn't sure what else to use that was close and fair for both sides during combat.
The ranged attack was thinking about a dragon using a "Breath Attack" which could be considered a ranged attack is all.
My group likes to try and stump me with rules vs RL.... lol. Trying to think of all counter arguments is all. Thx for the feed back!
A breath weapon is not a ranged attack. Overall, I think you've gone way overboard on the complexity of this- I'm having flashbacks to 3rd Edition's grapple rules.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This post was hard to follow. Are you... trying to implement rules for a lasso? Is that what I'm looking at?
If so, the grappled condition is not what you want, because a lasso won't set a target's speed to 0, as it can approach the lassoer (is that a word?) freely. A new condition you write yourself is probably best, and don't allow it at squints holy crap, is that 50 feet? Have you ever tried to maneuver a 20 foot rope? 50 foot rope is well beyond even a STR 20 wielder. I'd recommend just letting PCs use whips as lasso weapons. Mechanically, have the condition be that the lasso is attached to the target until removed (use the net rules for removal), and so the two creatures on either end are now attached, but the wielder of the lasso can let go at will. While both creatures are attached, either one can functionally drag the other with it, like grapple movement does (don't forget to check weights - creatures have drag limits). Inflict the condition the same way grapple inflicts, with an Athletics check vs Athletics or Acrobatics, target's choice. If you want to allow this to work despite radical size differences, give the larger creature advantage.
I used grapple to make it fair on both sides. I tried to think of actions taken during play... some might say a flying creature could dodge or use a saving throw from being grappled. I wasn't sure what else to use that was close and fair for both sides during combat.
The ranged attack was thinking about a dragon using a "Breath Attack" which could be considered a ranged attack is all.
My group likes to try and stump me with rules vs RL.... lol. Trying to think of all counter arguments is all. Thx for the feed back!
Nothing wrong with wanting things to be fair, but as 6thLyranGuard says this is really complicated. It also has a few holdovers from the grapple mechanic that just don't make a lot of sense: Str vs Dex aside, if you're throwing a rope to bring something down, does its size relative to yours really matter that much? You don't need to get your arm around the beastie after all, you need to get a rope across.
I could see a homebrew mechanic using a lasso of sorts using Dex to be able to snag the flying critter followed by Str to bring it down (assuming the brave folks on the ground aren't simply lifted into the air). I could also see a net being used, as explained in the rules (that'd actually prevent the target from flying, if its flight is wing-based). In both cases I'd wonder how the lasso/net would get thrown as far/high up as that, unless an action to use them was readied for when the target comes close enough.
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Hmmmm. I like that!. I figured that 90ft wasn't to far unless you disagree. Maybe use an archer to help lasso with an arrow? A grappled creature's ability to lift a creature is a good thought as well. My thought was a grappled creature wouldn't have all its strength to fly if so?
I am liking this brain storming. Keep the ideas and thoughts coming please. Hoping to have a strong homebrew rule by this weekend game!
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
You are correct. It is impossible by a non-mechanical means to throw a rope that far. If anyone watches a rodeo, which is the closest thing to this, the entire length of rope (not including the loop), might be 20 feet, max.
The other close option of this concept is a harpoon, where thrown weapon of that size would be the equivalent of a Trident (Lance is too light). A Trident has a range of 20/60, and that is before any rope is attached to it. So unless the player wants to harpoon or lasso something within 20 feet, this entire rule of cool is way way off the table.
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
You are correct. It is impossible by a non-mechanical means to throw a rope that far. If anyone watches a rodeo, which is the closest thing to this, the entire length of rope (not including the loop), might be 20 feet, max.
The other close option of this concept is a harpoon, where thrown weapon of that size would be the equivalent of a Trident (Lance is too light). A Trident has a range of 20/60, and that is before any rope is attached to it. So unless the player wants to harpoon or lasso something within 20 feet, this entire rule of cool is way way off the table.
Or, you know, they craft some mechanical means. Not exactly unheard of in anti-dragon combat.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
You are correct. It is impossible by a non-mechanical means to throw a rope that far. If anyone watches a rodeo, which is the closest thing to this, the entire length of rope (not including the loop), might be 20 feet, max.
The other close option of this concept is a harpoon, where thrown weapon of that size would be the equivalent of a Trident (Lance is too light). A Trident has a range of 20/60, and that is before any rope is attached to it. So unless the player wants to harpoon or lasso something within 20 feet, this entire rule of cool is way way off the table.
Or, you know, they craft some mechanical means. Not exactly unheard of in anti-dragon combat.
There is something in the game already, depending on what books are used as source material. A Ballista would be the closest thing to an Air Harpoon. And its chances against a fast moving target, like a Dragon, given it takes a full turn to aim.....no, just no.
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
You are correct. It is impossible by a non-mechanical means to throw a rope that far. If anyone watches a rodeo, which is the closest thing to this, the entire length of rope (not including the loop), might be 20 feet, max.
The other close option of this concept is a harpoon, where thrown weapon of that size would be the equivalent of a Trident (Lance is too light). A Trident has a range of 20/60, and that is before any rope is attached to it. So unless the player wants to harpoon or lasso something within 20 feet, this entire rule of cool is way way off the table.
Or, you know, they craft some mechanical means. Not exactly unheard of in anti-dragon combat.
There is something in the game already, depending on what books are used as source material. A Ballista would be the closest thing to an Air Harpoon. And its chances against a fast moving target, like a Dragon, given it takes a full turn to aim.....no, just no.
I could see an adapted heavy crossbow being a reasonable equivalent to a harpoon. Reduce the range to account for the weight of the rope, probably using heavier-than-normal bolts...
It's doable. However, you're still going to hit a problem when the dragon swipes at the rope or uses it's breath weapon in your direction and easily destroys it.
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
You are correct. It is impossible by a non-mechanical means to throw a rope that far. If anyone watches a rodeo, which is the closest thing to this, the entire length of rope (not including the loop), might be 20 feet, max.
The other close option of this concept is a harpoon, where thrown weapon of that size would be the equivalent of a Trident (Lance is too light). A Trident has a range of 20/60, and that is before any rope is attached to it. So unless the player wants to harpoon or lasso something within 20 feet, this entire rule of cool is way way off the table.
Or, you know, they craft some mechanical means. Not exactly unheard of in anti-dragon combat.
There is something in the game already, depending on what books are used as source material. A Ballista would be the closest thing to an Air Harpoon. And its chances against a fast moving target, like a Dragon, given it takes a full turn to aim.....no, just no.
I could see an adapted heavy crossbow being a reasonable equivalent to a harpoon. Reduce the range to account for the weight of the rope, probably using heavier-than-normal bolts...
It's doable. However, you're still going to hit a problem when the dragon swipes at the rope or uses it's breath weapon in your direction and easily destroys it.
Define an adapted heavy X-Bow. A Heavy X-Bow weighs in at 18 pounds. Assuming per the PHB a 50 foot length of normal rope weighs in at 10 lbs, and high end silk rope weighs 5 lbs, plus an over-sized bolt that is going to have to be one seriously big X-Bow.
Have a look at page 220 of Mord's. It describes essentially a Ballista carried by an Ogre Bolt Launcher (protip, never roll a 20 when attacking players with one, it ends up with tears), with a range of 120/480. But Ballista weigh in the hundreds of pounds (think the one in D&D is listed at 400 pounds).
Even if you want to have some custom built weapon that is between a Heavy X-Bow and a Ballista, it is going to weigh in at close to 100 pounds, when you factor in all the extra required power to launch the oversized bolt AND the rope. This is going to require all kinds of homebrewing by a DM, for range, weight, rate of fire, etc.
All great stuff. Thx again for all the input. I agree with everything so far. I will adapt the math to 60ft max with disadvantage throw. I may have them craft a stronger rope to pull the dragon to the ground but agree with the hit points. It will be fun to see how it plays out.
Cross bolt and thrown weapons are also fun ideas. I think I'll adopt some of the points made from the article listed below.
It will make the group use more strategy at close range for their melee attackers and maybe force one to work towards a special Proficiency, Feat or Expertise that will help during these situations.
New ish DM here and was looking to even the playing field for our group. About to start "Hoard of the Dragon Queen". Looking for any feed back. Hope you like/agree.
Grappling from the air.
Within 25ft of creature: armor class vs attack.
25ft+ of creature: Flying creature gets +1 to armor class.
50ft+ of creature: Attacker rolls with disadvantage.
Creature shall make a dexterity saving throw. If successful, creature takes half damage. If Dex-saving throw fails, creature takes full damage of 3d6+4 bludgeoning damage.
I wouldn't go with grappling for this. A grapple is a special melee attack that is resolved via a contested Strength check. I'm all on board with pulling a roped flying critter down to the ground needing some kind of Strength check, but the roping part is ranged and you're not really using a weapon (a thrown weapon would allow for Strength to be applied to the attack roll) - I think that should be Dex based.
I also don't see why the "attack with free hand or mouth that can damage or destroy the rope being used" would be a ranged attack.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I used grapple to make it fair on both sides. I tried to think of actions taken during play... some might say a flying creature could dodge or use a saving throw from being grappled. I wasn't sure what else to use that was close and fair for both sides during combat.
The ranged attack was thinking about a dragon using a "Breath Attack" which could be considered a ranged attack is all.
My group likes to try and stump me with rules vs RL.... lol. Trying to think of all counter arguments is all. Thx for the feed back!
A breath weapon is not a ranged attack. Overall, I think you've gone way overboard on the complexity of this- I'm having flashbacks to 3rd Edition's grapple rules.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This post was hard to follow. Are you... trying to implement rules for a lasso? Is that what I'm looking at?
If so, the grappled condition is not what you want, because a lasso won't set a target's speed to 0, as it can approach the lassoer (is that a word?) freely. A new condition you write yourself is probably best, and don't allow it at squints holy crap, is that 50 feet? Have you ever tried to maneuver a 20 foot rope? 50 foot rope is well beyond even a STR 20 wielder. I'd recommend just letting PCs use whips as lasso weapons. Mechanically, have the condition be that the lasso is attached to the target until removed (use the net rules for removal), and so the two creatures on either end are now attached, but the wielder of the lasso can let go at will. While both creatures are attached, either one can functionally drag the other with it, like grapple movement does (don't forget to check weights - creatures have drag limits). Inflict the condition the same way grapple inflicts, with an Athletics check vs Athletics or Acrobatics, target's choice. If you want to allow this to work despite radical size differences, give the larger creature advantage.
You are right my friend, I just read up un Breath Attack. I assumed :/
My groups likes to have specific rules when possible. Not trying to complicate except for a little geometry. Thx for the insight!
Nothing wrong with wanting things to be fair, but as 6thLyranGuard says this is really complicated. It also has a few holdovers from the grapple mechanic that just don't make a lot of sense: Str vs Dex aside, if you're throwing a rope to bring something down, does its size relative to yours really matter that much? You don't need to get your arm around the beastie after all, you need to get a rope across.
I could see a homebrew mechanic using a lasso of sorts using Dex to be able to snag the flying critter followed by Str to bring it down (assuming the brave folks on the ground aren't simply lifted into the air). I could also see a net being used, as explained in the rules (that'd actually prevent the target from flying, if its flight is wing-based). In both cases I'd wonder how the lasso/net would get thrown as far/high up as that, unless an action to use them was readied for when the target comes close enough.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Hmmmm. I like that!. I figured that 90ft wasn't to far unless you disagree. Maybe use an archer to help lasso with an arrow? A grappled creature's ability to lift a creature is a good thought as well. My thought was a grappled creature wouldn't have all its strength to fly if so?
I am liking this brain storming. Keep the ideas and thoughts coming please. Hoping to have a strong homebrew rule by this weekend game!
Rope has 2 HP. That's the biggest issue I'm seeing with this plan.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
90ft (about 30m) of rope is a lot. It will weigh just under 20lbs.
A hand axe can be thrown 60ft at long range. That only weighs 2lbs, and is weighted reasonably well for throwing.
If you attach it to an arrow (0.05lbs), the additional weight of the rope and its resistance as uncoiling will massively reduce the range and accuracy.
I think you are going to have to be a lot closer to make this viable. If you compare with people lassoing animals in the real world, they don't do so at a distance, they get up close.
You may be able to lasso the dragon and then back away, if you're lucky. Maybe 2 characters, each lassoing from opposite sides then backing away to a safe distance? I think it would be extremely difficult and would take a huge amount of luck to pull off. Even then, as mentioned, rope has 2HP, so the dragon is more than likely just going to break/burn the rope.
You are correct. It is impossible by a non-mechanical means to throw a rope that far. If anyone watches a rodeo, which is the closest thing to this, the entire length of rope (not including the loop), might be 20 feet, max.
The other close option of this concept is a harpoon, where thrown weapon of that size would be the equivalent of a Trident (Lance is too light). A Trident has a range of 20/60, and that is before any rope is attached to it. So unless the player wants to harpoon or lasso something within 20 feet, this entire rule of cool is way way off the table.
Or, you know, they craft some mechanical means. Not exactly unheard of in anti-dragon combat.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There is something in the game already, depending on what books are used as source material. A Ballista would be the closest thing to an Air Harpoon. And its chances against a fast moving target, like a Dragon, given it takes a full turn to aim.....no, just no.
I could see an adapted heavy crossbow being a reasonable equivalent to a harpoon. Reduce the range to account for the weight of the rope, probably using heavier-than-normal bolts...
It's doable. However, you're still going to hit a problem when the dragon swipes at the rope or uses it's breath weapon in your direction and easily destroys it.
Define an adapted heavy X-Bow. A Heavy X-Bow weighs in at 18 pounds. Assuming per the PHB a 50 foot length of normal rope weighs in at 10 lbs, and high end silk rope weighs 5 lbs, plus an over-sized bolt that is going to have to be one seriously big X-Bow.
Have a look at page 220 of Mord's. It describes essentially a Ballista carried by an Ogre Bolt Launcher (protip, never roll a 20 when attacking players with one, it ends up with tears), with a range of 120/480. But Ballista weigh in the hundreds of pounds (think the one in D&D is listed at 400 pounds).
Even if you want to have some custom built weapon that is between a Heavy X-Bow and a Ballista, it is going to weigh in at close to 100 pounds, when you factor in all the extra required power to launch the oversized bolt AND the rope. This is going to require all kinds of homebrewing by a DM, for range, weight, rate of fire, etc.
All great stuff. Thx again for all the input. I agree with everything so far. I will adapt the math to 60ft max with disadvantage throw. I may have them craft a stronger rope to pull the dragon to the ground but agree with the hit points. It will be fun to see how it plays out.
Cross bolt and thrown weapons are also fun ideas. I think I'll adopt some of the points made from the article listed below.
https://thinkdm.org/2019/09/14/thrown-weapon-master/
It will make the group use more strategy at close range for their melee attackers and maybe force one to work towards a special Proficiency, Feat or Expertise that will help during these situations.
Please keep schooling me. Thx for the help!
Rolling a 20!!! Very funny hahahaha
That appears to be the entire purpose of this thread.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].