As a level 12 Wizard, can I polymorph into Traxigor, and cast 9th-level spells?
Traxigor is polymorphed into an otter, so yes you could polymorph into an otter, no you don't his NPC stats and abilities. You become an otter.
While that would be a reasonable house rule and possibly more in line with the intent of Polymorph, as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities, but no you cannot cast spells or speak or do anything that relies on hands or speech (Polymorph restrictions that are independent of the beast you polymorph into).
as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities
Curious: as written, would the same apply to Druid Wildshapes? i.e. when a Druid Wildshapes, she becomes a 'Beast', but with some additional skill and saving throw proficiencies over the previous beast stats. Would another Druid now be able to Wildshape into that Beast form?
as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities
Curious: as written, would the same apply to Druid Wildshapes? i.e. when a Druid Wildshapes, she becomes a 'Beast', but with some additional skill and saving throw proficiencies over the previous beast stats. Would another Druid now be able to Wildshape into that Beast form?
Technically yes. As long as the CR and restrictions are met. (Such as flight etc).
In FR and Eberron there are tribes of Druids who spread the "seen" aspect of beasts by wildshaping into it for the tribe, basically if you left and saw a dinosaur but your tribe hasn't you could wildshape into so they could see it thus meeting the seen it requirements
as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities
Curious: as written, would the same apply to Druid Wildshapes? i.e. when a Druid Wildshapes, she becomes a 'Beast', but with some additional skill and saving throw proficiencies over the previous beast stats. Would another Druid now be able to Wildshape into that Beast form?
Technically yes. As long as the CR and restrictions are met. (Such as flight etc).
In FR and Eberron there are tribes of Druids who spread the "seen" aspect of beasts by wildshaping into it for the tribe, basically if you left and saw a dinosaur but your tribe hasn't you could wildshape into so they could see it thus meeting the seen it requirements
I figured Druids spread wildshapes that way but... I did not figure you would also obtain the other Druid's skill and saving throw proficiencies (since the beast you are emulating technically has them). It seems like you could daisy chain wildshapes to obtain All The Proficiencies.
as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities
Curious: as written, would the same apply to Druid Wildshapes? i.e. when a Druid Wildshapes, she becomes a 'Beast', but with some additional skill and saving throw proficiencies over the previous beast stats. Would another Druid now be able to Wildshape into that Beast form?
There are some particulars of how Wild Shape is written that make it clear the designers never thought about the possibility of druids wild shaping into player characters. The wild shape rules explicitly mention a "stat block," a concept unique to monsters and not possessed by PCs. I don't bring that up in order to claim that a druid CAN'T wild shape into another PC, only to make it clear that the designers weren't thinking about the possibility. It's an edge case, mechanically. Now, could a druid wild shape into Traxigor? Sadly no, because no druid can wild shape into a CR 12 beast.
Polymorph, however, is written differently. It just says "game statistics," which is more general than "stat block." And it doesn't care at all about how the beast in question came to be (natural beast, polymorphed beast, it doesn't matter; as long as it's a beast, it's valid, and Traxigor, mechanically, is unambiguously a beast). So, could you polymorph someone into a wild shaped druid? Yes. "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast." Type, according to the Monster Manual, is a "statistic," and type is not one of the things that Wild Shape calls out as being preserved, so a druid is a beast while wild shaped into one. It would be incredibly cheesy to have your druid wild shape into something and then polymorph the fighter into the wild shaped druid to get their Wisdom bonus which the fighter desperately needs for some reason, but there's nothing in the rules that prevents it.
as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities
Curious: as written, would the same apply to Druid Wildshapes? i.e. when a Druid Wildshapes, she becomes a 'Beast', but with some additional skill and saving throw proficiencies over the previous beast stats. Would another Druid now be able to Wildshape into that Beast form?
Technically yes. As long as the CR and restrictions are met. (Such as flight etc).
In FR and Eberron there are tribes of Druids who spread the "seen" aspect of beasts by wildshaping into it for the tribe, basically if you left and saw a dinosaur but your tribe hasn't you could wildshape into so they could see it thus meeting the seen it requirements
I figured Druids spread wildshapes that way but... I did not figure you would also obtain the other Druid's skill and saving throw proficiencies (since the beast you are emulating technically has them). It seems like you could daisy chain wildshapes to obtain All The Proficiencies.
Oh oh sorry. Yeah just the beast stats. The proficiencies are tied to the druid not the beast. You always gain the beasts stats, your class abilities or feats in older DnD gave you extra bits. (Tis why non druids who had shift in older editions didn't get the extra bits like the druids proficiencies)
I just thought it was interesting to add from what you said. It's always neat when there's a bit of in world lore that mirrors the mechanics. Didn't mean to muddle lol
It would be incredibly cheesy to have your druid wild shape into something and then polymorph the fighter into the wild shaped druid to get their Wisdom bonus which the fighter desperately needs for some reason, but there's nothing in the rules that prevents it.
I managed to get an answer for that here. Basically: Wild Shaped PC's do not have a CR, and thus cannot meet Polymorph's restriction of "The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s".
CR is part of a monster's statistics; a PC druid takes on its beast form's CR while wild shaped. Keeping their mental scores wouldn't alter the beast form's CR either because that's mainly a function of their offense or defense.
Traxigor (the otter) is that way because of a Wish spell right, not Polymorph? I skimmed the book before prepping what I'm running and recall something along those lines.
Traxigor (the otter) is that way because of a Wish spell right, not Polymorph? I skimmed the book before prepping what I'm running and recall something along those lines.
He was polymorphed with Polymorph, and it was made permanent by means of Wish, none of which is relevant to his statblock, which is all that’s relevant to whether or not someone else can be polymorphed into him.
My question to that would be then how does Traxigor cast spells without hands or likely speech?
True Polymorph though has this to say about spell casting. "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." This however also allows a creature to become another creature. So the "unless" could be talking about when a creature becomes another creature.
Yeah, no DM would or should let you polymorph into a specific person who was permanently polymorphed into the beast. Yes polymorph lets you use the game statistics, but at the end of the spell it says, "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech." So yes you can perform the actions of the new form, and you cant speak or cast spells. A player asking to do this is just trying to find a stupid hole in a setting specific book and alter the spirit of the rules and the intended use of the the spell.
yeah, typically you cannot transform into specific individuals which traxigor is. True polymorph for example would not let you turn into strahd von zarovich...
Additionally poly morph stipulates you can't use spells or speak so even if you were traxigor you would not be able to cast spells. The specific wording is " The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech." That doesn't just mean that you cant do any thing the new form can't and means that even if the new form can speak and cast spells you can't. Turning into Traxigor would just make you a very high hp otter...
Actually there is no otter stat block, maybe 99 hp with resistances is typical of otters...
Edit: true polymorph says "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." highlighting that the ability to cast spells if the form can requires the line "unless the new form is capable of such actions"
As a level 12 Wizard, can I polymorph into Traxigor, and cast 9th-level spells?
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I don't have Descent into Avernus but either way, polymorph explicitly says you can't cast spells.
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Traxigor is polymorphed into an otter, so yes you could polymorph into an otter, no you don't his NPC stats and abilities. You become an otter.
While that would be a reasonable house rule and possibly more in line with the intent of Polymorph, as written, yes you can polymorph into Traxigar and yes you get his stats and abilities, but no you cannot cast spells or speak or do anything that relies on hands or speech (Polymorph restrictions that are independent of the beast you polymorph into).
Curious: as written, would the same apply to Druid Wildshapes? i.e. when a Druid Wildshapes, she becomes a 'Beast', but with some additional skill and saving throw proficiencies over the previous beast stats. Would another Druid now be able to Wildshape into that Beast form?
Technically yes. As long as the CR and restrictions are met. (Such as flight etc).
In FR and Eberron there are tribes of Druids who spread the "seen" aspect of beasts by wildshaping into it for the tribe, basically if you left and saw a dinosaur but your tribe hasn't you could wildshape into so they could see it thus meeting the seen it requirements
I figured Druids spread wildshapes that way but... I did not figure you would also obtain the other Druid's skill and saving throw proficiencies (since the beast you are emulating technically has them). It seems like you could daisy chain wildshapes to obtain All The Proficiencies.
There are some particulars of how Wild Shape is written that make it clear the designers never thought about the possibility of druids wild shaping into player characters. The wild shape rules explicitly mention a "stat block," a concept unique to monsters and not possessed by PCs. I don't bring that up in order to claim that a druid CAN'T wild shape into another PC, only to make it clear that the designers weren't thinking about the possibility. It's an edge case, mechanically. Now, could a druid wild shape into Traxigor? Sadly no, because no druid can wild shape into a CR 12 beast.
Polymorph, however, is written differently. It just says "game statistics," which is more general than "stat block." And it doesn't care at all about how the beast in question came to be (natural beast, polymorphed beast, it doesn't matter; as long as it's a beast, it's valid, and Traxigor, mechanically, is unambiguously a beast). So, could you polymorph someone into a wild shaped druid? Yes. "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast." Type, according to the Monster Manual, is a "statistic," and type is not one of the things that Wild Shape calls out as being preserved, so a druid is a beast while wild shaped into one. It would be incredibly cheesy to have your druid wild shape into something and then polymorph the fighter into the wild shaped druid to get their Wisdom bonus which the fighter desperately needs for some reason, but there's nothing in the rules that prevents it.
Oh oh sorry. Yeah just the beast stats. The proficiencies are tied to the druid not the beast. You always gain the beasts stats, your class abilities or feats in older DnD gave you extra bits. (Tis why non druids who had shift in older editions didn't get the extra bits like the druids proficiencies)
I just thought it was interesting to add from what you said. It's always neat when there's a bit of in world lore that mirrors the mechanics. Didn't mean to muddle lol
I managed to get an answer for that here. Basically: Wild Shaped PC's do not have a CR, and thus cannot meet Polymorph's restriction of "The new form can be any beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s".
CR is part of a monster's statistics; a PC druid takes on its beast form's CR while wild shaped. Keeping their mental scores wouldn't alter the beast form's CR either because that's mainly a function of their offense or defense.
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Traxigor (the otter) is that way because of a Wish spell right, not Polymorph? I skimmed the book before prepping what I'm running and recall something along those lines.
...cryptographic randomness!
He was polymorphed with Polymorph, and it was made permanent by means of Wish, none of which is relevant to his statblock, which is all that’s relevant to whether or not someone else can be polymorphed into him.
_
My question to that would be then how does Traxigor cast spells without hands or likely speech?
True Polymorph though has this to say about spell casting. "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." This however also allows a creature to become another creature. So the "unless" could be talking about when a creature becomes another creature.
Well, he can obviously talk because he does so in the module. And he can obviously cast spells because he also does that in the module.
So if you really need to have an explanation for why he can do both, say it's an effect of the Wish spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
no
Yeah, no DM would or should let you polymorph into a specific person who was permanently polymorphed into the beast. Yes polymorph lets you use the game statistics, but at the end of the spell it says, "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech." So yes you can perform the actions of the new form, and you cant speak or cast spells. A player asking to do this is just trying to find a stupid hole in a setting specific book and alter the spirit of the rules and the intended use of the the spell.
Regardless of whether he's a beast or humanoid, if anyone tries to turn into him, I'd say no. If they argue, invoke Rule Zero.
yeah, typically you cannot transform into specific individuals which traxigor is. True polymorph for example would not let you turn into strahd von zarovich...
Additionally poly morph stipulates you can't use spells or speak so even if you were traxigor you would not be able to cast spells. The specific wording is " The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech." That doesn't just mean that you cant do any thing the new form can't and means that even if the new form can speak and cast spells you can't. Turning into Traxigor would just make you a very high hp otter...
Actually there is no otter stat block, maybe 99 hp with resistances is typical of otters...
Edit: true polymorph says "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions." highlighting that the ability to cast spells if the form can requires the line "unless the new form is capable of such actions"