I'd suggest to go with Daggers instead of Darts, as they are basically the same thing, but he dagger would effectively allow you to use them in melee. Also, you proficient in Daggers by default with the monk, so they found as monk weapons to you.
As per choosing them as the kensei weapon, this as well is most definitely possible. I'd say you should be able to benefit from both the melee and ranged variants of the Kensei weapon feature by just selecting Dagger as your melee weapon choice for the Kensei, leaving you the possibility of choosing another ranged-only weapon.
Thanks dagger itself would then qualify for everything both your monk and your rogue levels would allow: Kensei abilities, sneak attack and of course proficiency. Additional to that, you would could use it with all this whether you use it in melee or throwing it, with the difference that Agile Party could only be used in melee, and Kensei shot only when thrown (in case there could be a doubt).
Hope this helps.
Edit: just to be clear, the Dagger can also be used with martial arts, as it counts as a monk weapon by default, so its damage would scale the same as your unarmed strikes.
Some other key points to remember, the dagger is not a ranged weapon, it isn't on either of the ranged weapon's tables... it is a melee weapon that you can make a ranged attack with since it can be thrown... don't know if that affects your kensai ranged weapon stuff, but the dagger is good for most other stuff as mentioned above... although there is one more thing that wasn't addressed, the dart is not an improvised weapon and neither is the dagger so they wouldn't trigger the tavern brawler feat.
While you are technically right, I feel that by definition, if it is a weapon. And it's being used at a range. To make an attack. It counts as a ranged weapon attack.
But even besides that fact, Kensei Shot specifically says "You can use a bonus action on your turn to make your ranged attacks with a kensei weapon more deadly."
So since it also, per the PHB, Ranged attack is defined as, "When you make a ranged attack, you fire a bow or a crossbow, hurl a handaxe, or otherwise send projectiles to strike a foe at a distance." The latter of the two examples given is essentially a dagger throw.
So ultimately, yes, you can not say, "I choose the dagger as my ranged weapon." But it can be used with the ranged weapon's perks.
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You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
Some other key points to remember, the dagger is not a ranged weapon, it isn't on either of the ranged weapon's tables... it is a melee weapon that you can make a ranged attack with since it can be thrown... don't know if that affects your kensai ranged weapon stuff, but the dagger is good for most other stuff as mentioned above... although there is one more thing that wasn't addressed, the dart is not an improvised weapon and neither is the dagger so they wouldn't trigger the tavern brawler feat.
This is one of the areas in which 5th edition's "casual language" approach to the rules gets a bit messy; there are two different things which use nearly the same words. There are ranged weapon attacks which are any attack made at range using a weapon, and there are attacks with ranged weapons which are only attacks made with weapons explicitly labeled as "ranged weapon" by their location on the weapon charts.
Some features work with both, but other features (like the archery fighting style) are expressly limited to ranged weapons.
Ranged weapons are the weapons that are listed as ranged weapons in the weapons table. Bows, crossbows, darts, slings.
Ranged attacks are attacks made at range, and they can be ranged weapon attacks or ranged spell attacks.
Ranged weapon attacks don't have to be made with ranged weapons; they just aren't spell attacks. Throwing a vase at someone's head is still a ranged weapon attack (improvised), but it is not an attack with a ranged weapon.
Since the ranged attack vs attack with a ranged weapon has been handled, I just wanted to add that you could talk to your DM about skinning the dagger to look like a dart. Most reasonable DMs would have no problem with saying "It looks like a dart." as long as it functions mechanically like a dagger. That way you still get all the bonuses of the dagger with the flavor of a dart/throwing knife.
Further to the "ranged weapon attack vs attack with a ranged weapon" points; if you make a melee attack using a weapon with the Ammunition property then "you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon" - this means you are no longer even attacking with a ranged weapon, just with an improvised club-thing. Annoyingly the same is not clearly specified to cover darts (or nets). I think we have to assume that the same thing occurs, though, since there is nothing else in the rules that allows making a melee attack using a ranged weapon except the rules in Improvised weapon section which state: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack it also deals 1d4 damage". But does that mean you are using an improvised weapon, and would that in turn mean that it is not a finesse weapon and must use strength? And so on, once it is improvised is it no longer your Kensai weapon? I think this situation gets so complex that every DM ought to make their own ruling before they fall too far down this rabbit hole. I'm gonna go with "everything is a dagger!"
Further to the "ranged weapon attack vs attack with a ranged weapon" points; if you make a melee attack using a weapon with the Ammunition property then "you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon" - this means you are no longer even attacking with a ranged weapon, just with an improvised club-thing. Annoyingly the same is not clearly specified to cover darts (or nets). I think we have to assume that the same thing occurs, though, since there is nothing else in the rules that allows making a melee attack using a ranged weapon except the rules in Improvised weapon section which state: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack it also deals 1d4 damage". But does that mean you are using an improvised weapon, and would that in turn mean that it is not a finesse weapon and must use strength? And so on, once it is improvised is it no longer your Kensai weapon? I think this situation gets so complex that every DM ought to make their own ruling before they fall too far down this rabbit hole. I'm gonna go with "everything is a dagger!"
In regard to the kensei thing, no. A weapon is declared as your kensei weapon when you take it. That's why this argument started. If I say, "Daggers are my melee kensei weapon." And make a ranged attack with them, I can use kensei shot because of it's wording saying "When you make a ranged attack with a kensei weapon." Now, I don't know if you can choose arrows as your kensei weapon but if your DM allows it than I suppose even as an improvised attack, it would work.
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You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
Further to the "ranged weapon attack vs attack with a ranged weapon" points; if you make a melee attack using a weapon with the Ammunition property then "you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon" - this means you are no longer even attacking with a ranged weapon, just with an improvised club-thing. Annoyingly the same is not clearly specified to cover darts (or nets). I think we have to assume that the same thing occurs, though, since there is nothing else in the rules that allows making a melee attack using a ranged weapon except the rules in Improvised weapon section which state: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack it also deals 1d4 damage". But does that mean you are using an improvised weapon, and would that in turn mean that it is not a finesse weapon and must use strength? And so on, once it is improvised is it no longer your Kensai weapon? I think this situation gets so complex that every DM ought to make their own ruling before they fall too far down this rabbit hole. I'm gonna go with "everything is a dagger!"
Any ranged weapon (including darts and nets, though nets do no damage normally) used to make a melee attack is an improvised weapon for that attack, making a melee weapon attack. And you are correct that (RAW) it would use Strength and not have any properties like Finesse or Light. However, the DM could reasonably adjudicate that it would have a property like that depending on the implement. As for kensei weapons, I would not consider it a kensei weapon for the purpose of that attack; your kensei weapon implies training with that weapon in its intended use, not an improvised one. Again it's up to the DM's interpretation.
Further to the "ranged weapon attack vs attack with a ranged weapon" points; if you make a melee attack using a weapon with the Ammunition property then "you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon" - this means you are no longer even attacking with a ranged weapon, just with an improvised club-thing. Annoyingly the same is not clearly specified to cover darts (or nets). I think we have to assume that the same thing occurs, though, since there is nothing else in the rules that allows making a melee attack using a ranged weapon except the rules in Improvised weapon section which state: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack it also deals 1d4 damage". But does that mean you are using an improvised weapon, and would that in turn mean that it is not a finesse weapon and must use strength? And so on, once it is improvised is it no longer your Kensai weapon? I think this situation gets so complex that every DM ought to make their own ruling before they fall too far down this rabbit hole. I'm gonna go with "everything is a dagger!"
In regard to the kensei thing, no. A weapon is declared as your kensei weapon when you take it. That's why this argument started. If I say, "Daggers are my melee kensei weapon." And make a ranged attack with them, I can use kensei shot because of it's wording saying "When you make a ranged attack with a kensei weapon." Now, I don't know if you can choose arrows as your kensei weapon but if your DM allows it than I suppose even as an improvised attack, it would work.
This is really up to the DM - RAW, an improvised weapon loses any of the normal properties of the weapon for that attack. https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976 However, daggers don't become improvised weapons because they have the thrown property, so they definitely still benefit from being kensei weapons.
So I want to create a monk/rogue who attacks in melee with a dart (throwing knife).
It is finesse (sneak attack) and improvised (tavern brawler at 1st as Vuman makes you proficient)
By 4th level (Monk 3/Rogue 1) w/Kensai weapon Dart.
Question?
Does it qualify for basically everything it should? Sneak, bonus grapple from tavern brawler, kensai weapon abilities, proficiency bonus?
Cant see a reason not.
Also should be able to reflavor unarmed attacks as knife strikes (no extra damage or effects).
Death by a thousand cuts.
I'd suggest to go with Daggers instead of Darts, as they are basically the same thing, but he dagger would effectively allow you to use them in melee. Also, you proficient in Daggers by default with the monk, so they found as monk weapons to you.
As per choosing them as the kensei weapon, this as well is most definitely possible. I'd say you should be able to benefit from both the melee and ranged variants of the Kensei weapon feature by just selecting Dagger as your melee weapon choice for the Kensei, leaving you the possibility of choosing another ranged-only weapon.
Thanks dagger itself would then qualify for everything both your monk and your rogue levels would allow: Kensei abilities, sneak attack and of course proficiency. Additional to that, you would could use it with all this whether you use it in melee or throwing it, with the difference that Agile Party could only be used in melee, and Kensei shot only when thrown (in case there could be a doubt).
Hope this helps.
Edit: just to be clear, the Dagger can also be used with martial arts, as it counts as a monk weapon by default, so its damage would scale the same as your unarmed strikes.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
This is one of the areas in which 5th edition's "casual language" approach to the rules gets a bit messy; there are two different things which use nearly the same words. There are ranged weapon attacks which are any attack made at range using a weapon, and there are attacks with ranged weapons which are only attacks made with weapons explicitly labeled as "ranged weapon" by their location on the weapon charts.
Some features work with both, but other features (like the archery fighting style) are expressly limited to ranged weapons.
Ranged weapons are the weapons that are listed as ranged weapons in the weapons table. Bows, crossbows, darts, slings.
Ranged attacks are attacks made at range, and they can be ranged weapon attacks or ranged spell attacks.
Ranged weapon attacks don't have to be made with ranged weapons; they just aren't spell attacks. Throwing a vase at someone's head is still a ranged weapon attack (improvised), but it is not an attack with a ranged weapon.
Hope that clears things up.
Since the ranged attack vs attack with a ranged weapon has been handled, I just wanted to add that you could talk to your DM about skinning the dagger to look like a dart. Most reasonable DMs would have no problem with saying "It looks like a dart." as long as it functions mechanically like a dagger. That way you still get all the bonuses of the dagger with the flavor of a dart/throwing knife.
Further to the "ranged weapon attack vs attack with a ranged weapon" points; if you make a melee attack using a weapon with the Ammunition property then "you treat the weapon as an improvised weapon" - this means you are no longer even attacking with a ranged weapon, just with an improvised club-thing. Annoyingly the same is not clearly specified to cover darts (or nets). I think we have to assume that the same thing occurs, though, since there is nothing else in the rules that allows making a melee attack using a ranged weapon except the rules in Improvised weapon section which state: "If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack it also deals 1d4 damage". But does that mean you are using an improvised weapon, and would that in turn mean that it is not a finesse weapon and must use strength? And so on, once it is improvised is it no longer your Kensai weapon? I think this situation gets so complex that every DM ought to make their own ruling before they fall too far down this rabbit hole. I'm gonna go with "everything is a dagger!"
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.