I've been going over the Dragonlance MMC vol. 2 sourcebook stats and I'm wondering why Lord Verminaard has a Strength rating of 22 which is equal to Lord Soth?
That's crazy and to anyone who has read the original books know that Soth was well beyond Verminaard in terms of physical strength. Looks like the person who did these stats has no concept of what happened in those books or even what was written in previous Dragonlance sourcebooks. Regardless, Verminaard (powered up by Takhisis or not) should be a 19 at best in 5e.
Stuff like this makes me realize that some of the people who make these things behind the scenes never read the books (or even stats from ALL the other Dragonlance sourcebooks).
Lord Soth was always the strongest of the main characters. Tracy Hickman, who basically created all the characters wrote the stats for each character in the game for the 1st editions, so he has the final say. This is the strength levels for each character.
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Is there an error in the credits page? Because otherwise I'm not sure you understand what 'a nobody' means.
If that one number is that important to never ever change between editions, just homebrew a copy and change the Strength score. Probably faster to do that than post messages here insulting industry veterans.
When I see things like this, it shows me how out of touch this new generation of creators are.
Is "new generation of creators" mean anyone who started after 2000??? Because most of them have been doing this professionally for 10-20 years. Is this sort of like all those news stories treating all millenials as perpetually 20 years old and ruining everything? LOL! ;)
I know Soth was arguably the most powerful of the Dragon army leaders, but I don't think that has to mechanically mean he's got the highest STR. I mean I don't remember a scene in the the armies of Takhesis's weight room where everyone's deadlift maxes were on the whiteboard, and I haven't compared the the stat blocks to see how Soth and Verminaard dish out their respective damages.
Past editions' artistic rendering of Verminaard seem in line with the illustration provided in the Monstrous Compendium. The stats are comparable to whatever the designers wanted V to accomplish in this game, since he's currently bonus content (anyone get a sense they're hedging on a sequel for this book?) he simply fills the role of imposing warlord member of Takhesis's inner circle of mortal generals.
Would DMs presume this guy has some magic items likely boosted his STR beyond 20 to give out as loot for a party that manages to take him down?
Lord Soth was always the strongest of the main characters. Tracy Hickman, who basically created all the characters wrote the stats for each character in the game for the 1st editions, so he has the final say. This is the strength levels for each character.
3.5 edition (with stats given by Hickman and Weis together)
Lord Soth: 24 Caramon: 19 Riverwind: 18 Verminaard: 14
Now today in 5th edition (with stats made up by basically a nobody with no input from Hickman or Weis)
Lord Soth: 22 Verminaard: 22
When I see things like this, it shows me how out of touch this new generation of creators are. Sad.
This, to me, looks like solid proof that Verminaard needed a serious tune-up. The guy is a dragon lord. He is someone so powerful he treats dragons basically like ponies: He puts saddles on them and rides them for all they're worth. 'Ride, little pony - ride!' By comparison, who are Caramon and Riverwind, again? Vagrants, basically - although later in the books, they become ... I dunno, more powerful vagrants.
And why would Lord Soth be strong, particularly? He's undead. He doesn't even have muscles. Sure, he's a powerful death knight, and overall scary dude. But I see no valid argument why 'death knight scary dude' needs to be stronger than 'dragonlord scary dude'.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So they buffed Verminaard relative to Soth who cares. You're also looking solely at the strength score as if that's the sole arbiter of 'power.' Soth was always strong but he wasn't strong just because big muscles, but the dark power he commands which is not represented by his strength score.
In the context of 5E, 22 str feels appropriate here for both of them. It's above what normal PCs can achieve without a boon or magic item or something that can raise their stat cap. But they're also not gargantual dragons etc to warrant a score of 30 etc.
You need to look at their entire pages not just who's going to win in an arm wrestling context.
So your complaint is that Darth Vader *Lite* (Dragon Highlord Verminaard) now has the same physical stength as Darth Vader *Full* (Lord Soth)?
Firstly, he might have. We never saw them (Vermin and Soth) in a scene together so how would you know otherwise?
Secondly, If you are just complaining that later versions of the game don't keep things consistent with prior iterations of stats from the game made ~40 years ago? Good. There were many issues in terms of design that DL1-14 had. There is nothing that should be treated as sacrosanct in terms of DL's crunch. All should be on the table and negotiable for 5e.
Thirdly, if your complaint is that some 5e designer now is not treating the novels as canon that must be slavishly adhered to? Good. Crap to that. This is the problem with DragonLance and some of its fans: some want to slavishly adhere to the books in a way that is never at issue with any other novelization of D&D or its characters. When the novels stymie continued development of the game and the game world, it's time to throw the novels into the fireplace and burn them. We are playing a game, not a novel.
I've been going over the Dragonlance MMC vol. 2 sourcebook stats and I'm wondering why Lord Verminaard has a Strength rating of 22 which is equal to Lord Soth?
That's crazy and to anyone who has read the original books know that Soth was well beyond Verminaard in terms of physical strength. Looks like the person who did these stats has no concept of what happened in those books or even what was written in previous Dragonlance sourcebooks. Regardless, Verminaard (powered up by Takhisis or not) should be a 19 at best in 5e.
Stuff like this makes me realize that some of the people who make these things behind the scenes never read the books (or even stats from ALL the other Dragonlance sourcebooks).
Sheesh, such a shame.
Lord Soth agrees with this post.
Thank you, sir. Verminaard's strength stat straight sucks and made by someone who is uneducated in Dragonlance history.
Lord Soth was always the strongest of the main characters. Tracy Hickman, who basically created all the characters wrote the stats for each character in the game for the 1st editions, so he has the final say. This is the strength levels for each character.
ADnD 1st and 2nd edition
Lord Soth: 18 (99)
Caramon: 18 (63)
Riverwind: 18 (35)
Verminaard: 14
3.5 edition (with stats given by Hickman and Weis together)
Lord Soth: 24
Caramon: 19
Riverwind: 18
Verminaard: 14
Now today in 5th edition (with stats made up by basically a nobody with no input from Hickman or Weis)
Lord Soth: 22
Verminaard: 22
When I see things like this, it shows me how out of touch this new generation of creators are.
Sad.
... 'K.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
If I put this Verminaard build against the Companions, I think that Thakisis can just rest on the sofà drinking some nasty cocktail.
Took the words right out of my mouth, Cybermind...
Why even bother with Lord Soth stats. It's not like the adventure was written so that the party could fight him.
"You will own nothing, and be happy"
Is there an error in the credits page? Because otherwise I'm not sure you understand what 'a nobody' means.
If that one number is that important to never ever change between editions, just homebrew a copy and change the Strength score. Probably faster to do that than post messages here insulting industry veterans.
Is "new generation of creators" mean anyone who started after 2000??? Because most of them have been doing this professionally for 10-20 years. Is this sort of like all those news stories treating all millenials as perpetually 20 years old and ruining everything? LOL! ;)
I know Soth was arguably the most powerful of the Dragon army leaders, but I don't think that has to mechanically mean he's got the highest STR. I mean I don't remember a scene in the the armies of Takhesis's weight room where everyone's deadlift maxes were on the whiteboard, and I haven't compared the the stat blocks to see how Soth and Verminaard dish out their respective damages.
Past editions' artistic rendering of Verminaard seem in line with the illustration provided in the Monstrous Compendium. The stats are comparable to whatever the designers wanted V to accomplish in this game, since he's currently bonus content (anyone get a sense they're hedging on a sequel for this book?) he simply fills the role of imposing warlord member of Takhesis's inner circle of mortal generals.
Would DMs presume this guy has some magic items likely boosted his STR beyond 20 to give out as loot for a party that manages to take him down?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This, to me, looks like solid proof that Verminaard needed a serious tune-up. The guy is a dragon lord. He is someone so powerful he treats dragons basically like ponies: He puts saddles on them and rides them for all they're worth. 'Ride, little pony - ride!' By comparison, who are Caramon and Riverwind, again? Vagrants, basically - although later in the books, they become ... I dunno, more powerful vagrants.
And why would Lord Soth be strong, particularly? He's undead. He doesn't even have muscles. Sure, he's a powerful death knight, and overall scary dude. But I see no valid argument why 'death knight scary dude' needs to be stronger than 'dragonlord scary dude'.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
So they buffed Verminaard relative to Soth who cares. You're also looking solely at the strength score as if that's the sole arbiter of 'power.' Soth was always strong but he wasn't strong just because big muscles, but the dark power he commands which is not represented by his strength score.
In the context of 5E, 22 str feels appropriate here for both of them. It's above what normal PCs can achieve without a boon or magic item or something that can raise their stat cap. But they're also not gargantual dragons etc to warrant a score of 30 etc.
You need to look at their entire pages not just who's going to win in an arm wrestling context.
So your complaint is that Darth Vader *Lite* (Dragon Highlord Verminaard) now has the same physical stength as Darth Vader *Full* (Lord Soth)?
Firstly, he might have. We never saw them (Vermin and Soth) in a scene together so how would you know otherwise?
Secondly, If you are just complaining that later versions of the game don't keep things consistent with prior iterations of stats from the game made ~40 years ago? Good. There were many issues in terms of design that DL1-14 had. There is nothing that should be treated as sacrosanct in terms of DL's crunch. All should be on the table and negotiable for 5e.
Thirdly, if your complaint is that some 5e designer now is not treating the novels as canon that must be slavishly adhered to? Good. Crap to that. This is the problem with DragonLance and some of its fans: some want to slavishly adhere to the books in a way that is never at issue with any other novelization of D&D or its characters. When the novels stymie continued development of the game and the game world, it's time to throw the novels into the fireplace and burn them. We are playing a game, not a novel.