So anyone reading this thread most likely knows by now about the news, which we should all be truly rejoicing right now! This victory, however, did not come without cost. We have most likely lost some of the larger and higher quality 3rd party publishers due to these shady past couple months, OneD&D playtesting got severely delayed, and actively worked on projects were paused or cancelled. This is still a win, no doubt, but just like in war, no victory comes without loss. It's always important to acknowledge what was sacrificed or lost. Hopefully the projects that were paused or cancelled can return. Hopefully Kobold and other large 3PP's will return to their cancelled 5e plans and projects. And I personally feel this next loss is the most important to try to salvage for the company going forward, but we also have to acknowledge just how damaging this was to the good faith and trust we as a community had in them. They took that for advantage and learned what happens from it. They are making steps to try to amend it. We as fans should watch these next coming months closely, as to not give them the chance to do it again, but also give them the space to make it right. If we keep an impenetrable defensive wall up, they won't be able to make it right regardless of their efforts. This healing process is on both sides, although most of the effort has to come from them. I'm hopeful for this future with TRUE open gaming in the tabletop community. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks that chooses to read this, and see how everyone feels about this recent stepback.
As I posted just now in another thread: Not that I mean to be "that guy"; but this isn't over. This is a "take a long rest, recharge spell slots, post a guard to make sure the red dragon isn't getting greedy and complacent and eyeing up the neighbouring kingdoms."
We've now seen what WOTC/Hasbro's higher up executives WANT to make happen; their "walled garden" model for D&D's future; the fact they got busted once because they pushed too far too quickly doesn't change the end goal. So long as the same executive team is in place, that threat will only sleep like an Lovecraftian elder god and not actually be defeated. They'll wait for the fires of outrage to die down, the public's eye to move on, and then start rolling out thigns more carefully next time.
---
What WOTC did here is reveal to all that the ecosystem that grew up around D&D 5E all hinged on a single point of failure; one that was in their minds within their power to destroy; their key mistake being assuming we were guests at their table and not the other way around. Ultimately though: competition might be for the best. In terms of TTRPGs as a whole I mean: the market can have a couple 200 pound Dire Wolves instead of one 800 pound Alpha Dire Wolf. We might get some higher quality products, and the corporation doesn't get fat and greedy.
I definitely agree with the sentiment of it not being over. Wars aren't won on a single victory. There are still terrible people at the top. There are still other issues brought to light that aren't exactly rectified. I agree we as fans should still approach the future of this with caution. I am personally excited to see Kobold Press' new system, among others that arise from this. I just also hope they decide to continue 5e content. I hope other 3PP's that also decided to step away decide to continue those cancelled projects now.
War happens in waves. Each wave's results can have rippling effects on future waves. This wave, we won, no doubt about that. That should be a huge boost to the morale of those active in this movement, it sure is for me. As we prepare for what's next, we should reflect on the costs. We should consider our next moves. That's what I meant by going forward with an open mind. Not that I feel we should completely drop our guard, that would be stupid and foolish at this point by what we have been shown. I just also feel that we should provide space for repair and regrowth of the trust. The trust can never truly be repaired if we keep a closed mind to the idea. That's all I meant by it.
Well, my position remains the same. They are welcome to publish OGL 1.3, offer up D&D Beyond as a storefront, offer up their beautiful logo and whatever else they can think of to get 3rd party publishers onboard, and begin the process of talking about royalties or morality clauses or whatever else they think they need to make 6.0 a success. Attempting to "own" dice rolling and the concept of storytelling pissed me off, but it's not like the SRD is the only thing of value WotC has to offer 3rd party publishers. If they piled enough goodies in the basket, they might even make 1.1 look tasty to enough 3rd party publishers to chow down on. Royalties and all.
A "SRD Beyond" document that includes (selected) stuff from the sword coast, xanathars, tasha's and Mordkainen expansions? A repository of battlemaps, digital tokens, artworks and locations that can be used in adventures plug and play (you want roll20 onboard, right?)
Put down the stick, pick up your basket of carrots and get to work!
1: 3rd Party Creators no longer trust WotC, and are less likely to continue using OGL/SRD content even with the addition of some previously Copy Righted material because they didn't edit the SRD before putting in CC.
2: The Majority of their customer base, no longer sees D&D as the only choice, Pathfinder has sold out it's yearly inventory in the last 2 weeks, and has more orders for the core books than they can fill before April. That is a significant loss in revenue WotC will not get back
3: Community Trust and Good will, many of us use to use DnD as the shorthand for the hobby. Not anymore. I use TTRPG now, and some use P2E. D&D is no longer a term for the hobby, its lost a massive free adverting revenue from that change alone.
4: Streamers other than CR are switching to P2E, either when their current adventure ends or they just dropped D&D outright and made the switch.
5: ALL the D&D Youtube shows have changed. These were bread and butter ads for DnD and they have been the loudest voices against. Many don't feel they need WotC anymore.
6: Me and many like me who already refunded our DnDB subscriptions and don't plan on coming back. Today is the last day I will be posting, as it's just to finish out this event.
Wizards thought they saw a loophole in a contract. That loophole, theoretically, is gone now. People who do business with a brand like wizards or cocacola or ford motors without an iron clad contract will get screwed every time. Not only do they have more lawyers than you do, but their lawyers get paid a salary.
Wizards thought they saw a loophole in a contract. That loophole, theoretically, is gone now. People who do business with a brand like wizards or cocacola or ford motors without an iron clad contract will get screwed every time. Not only do they have more lawyers than you do, but their lawyers get paid a salary.
Spoken like a person who's never read a book on economics. Your statement is only correct if your business doesn't have a customer facing, and is not publicly traded. Legal firms, Collections, Tax Services, sure you could make that argument. As they are only concerned with their contracts for revenue, and contracts with their employees or contract workers.
Every other industry on the Planet requires Trust more than contracts. Ford Motor Cars became the giant in the industry because of consumer trust, and Investor Trust. Ford is a safe and stable investment for both the customer and the investor. Coca Cola had one moment in history where it lost brand focus, and lost customer trust, "New Coke" it's why their are now artisan soda makers at all, if not for the mistake of New Coke Pepsi Cola would have a fraction of the market it does today, and there would not be off brand soda makers.
Hasbro royally screwed up, as it has both a public facing retail side and investors, and they lost trust with both at the same time. Most companies can weather loosing the trust of investors or customers, but few survive loosing both. Today they took the right step to regain the trust, and they might survive this winter. But The damage has been done, and the investors are looking closely right now, and some of the bigger investors want blood. Customer trust being lost means an interruption in revenue, Investor trust lost can cause the entire management staff to be replaced, and divisions of the company to be sold off. ie Daimler-Benz and Chrysler back a few years ago. Yeah turns out people in the USA didn't like Ram trucks being made by Mercedes-Benzes.
Okay, so some quick background. The OGL lets you designate things as Product Identity and not actually available for reuse, while CC-BY-4.0 doesn't. So since they didn't change anything about the OGL, apart from the license, they inadvertently just released the following under CC
Also, IANAL, but I want to say the legal status is that the names are available for use, even if the specific references aren't
The gods Chauntea, Arawai, Lathander, Pelor, Ilmater, Mishakal, Boldrei, Moradin, and (vaguely, since he is a real-world figure) St. Cuthbert
The demon lords Demogorgon and Fraz'Urb-luu
The locations Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, the Feywild, the Shadowfell, the City of Brass, including the Street of Steel and the Gate of Ashes, the Sea of Fire in the Elemental Plane of Fire, Arborea, and the Beastlands
The monsters beholders, mind flayers (but not as illithids), slaadi, myconids, yuan-ti, ultroloths, and yugoloths
The vampire Strahd von Zarovich
Then as an honorary mention:
Ioun. Ioun stones are actually named after a Forgotten Realms character, Congenio Ioun, but unlike all the spells like Bigby's Grasping Hand, his name wasn't scrubbed from the SRD
EDIT: There are a few others like Orcus that are dubious, similarly to St. Cuthbert. But I generally excluded cases where they borrowed an existing name like that
EDIT: And before people ask, yes, I really did look over all 403 pages of the SRD to find these
Let the dollar store brand Strahd von Zarovich's begin.
Well I did have a Legally distinct not Strahd and Not a Vampire BBEG in my setting book that was published like 10 years ago. I could totally revise that book and call him Strahd and make him a Vampire now.
The loss of 1.2 is the nail in D&Ds coffin (the company), it has little to no hope in the long term now. 3rd party creator's used this to pad their pockets just like WotC was accused of. But at least we got to see that all the "creator's" be it 3rd party or WotC are just businesses trying to make money. The community it just a side effect of this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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So anyone reading this thread most likely knows by now about the news, which we should all be truly rejoicing right now! This victory, however, did not come without cost. We have most likely lost some of the larger and higher quality 3rd party publishers due to these shady past couple months, OneD&D playtesting got severely delayed, and actively worked on projects were paused or cancelled. This is still a win, no doubt, but just like in war, no victory comes without loss. It's always important to acknowledge what was sacrificed or lost. Hopefully the projects that were paused or cancelled can return. Hopefully Kobold and other large 3PP's will return to their cancelled 5e plans and projects. And I personally feel this next loss is the most important to try to salvage for the company going forward, but we also have to acknowledge just how damaging this was to the good faith and trust we as a community had in them. They took that for advantage and learned what happens from it. They are making steps to try to amend it. We as fans should watch these next coming months closely, as to not give them the chance to do it again, but also give them the space to make it right. If we keep an impenetrable defensive wall up, they won't be able to make it right regardless of their efforts. This healing process is on both sides, although most of the effort has to come from them. I'm hopeful for this future with TRUE open gaming in the tabletop community. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks that chooses to read this, and see how everyone feels about this recent stepback.
As I posted just now in another thread: Not that I mean to be "that guy"; but this isn't over. This is a "take a long rest, recharge spell slots, post a guard to make sure the red dragon isn't getting greedy and complacent and eyeing up the neighbouring kingdoms."
We've now seen what WOTC/Hasbro's higher up executives WANT to make happen; their "walled garden" model for D&D's future; the fact they got busted once because they pushed too far too quickly doesn't change the end goal. So long as the same executive team is in place, that threat will only sleep like an Lovecraftian elder god and not actually be defeated. They'll wait for the fires of outrage to die down, the public's eye to move on, and then start rolling out thigns more carefully next time.
---
What WOTC did here is reveal to all that the ecosystem that grew up around D&D 5E all hinged on a single point of failure; one that was in their minds within their power to destroy; their key mistake being assuming we were guests at their table and not the other way around. Ultimately though: competition might be for the best. In terms of TTRPGs as a whole I mean: the market can have a couple 200 pound Dire Wolves instead of one 800 pound Alpha Dire Wolf. We might get some higher quality products, and the corporation doesn't get fat and greedy.
I definitely agree with the sentiment of it not being over. Wars aren't won on a single victory. There are still terrible people at the top. There are still other issues brought to light that aren't exactly rectified. I agree we as fans should still approach the future of this with caution. I am personally excited to see Kobold Press' new system, among others that arise from this. I just also hope they decide to continue 5e content. I hope other 3PP's that also decided to step away decide to continue those cancelled projects now.
War happens in waves. Each wave's results can have rippling effects on future waves. This wave, we won, no doubt about that. That should be a huge boost to the morale of those active in this movement, it sure is for me. As we prepare for what's next, we should reflect on the costs. We should consider our next moves. That's what I meant by going forward with an open mind. Not that I feel we should completely drop our guard, that would be stupid and foolish at this point by what we have been shown. I just also feel that we should provide space for repair and regrowth of the trust. The trust can never truly be repaired if we keep a closed mind to the idea. That's all I meant by it.
Well, my position remains the same. They are welcome to publish OGL 1.3, offer up D&D Beyond as a storefront, offer up their beautiful logo and whatever else they can think of to get 3rd party publishers onboard, and begin the process of talking about royalties or morality clauses or whatever else they think they need to make 6.0 a success. Attempting to "own" dice rolling and the concept of storytelling pissed me off, but it's not like the SRD is the only thing of value WotC has to offer 3rd party publishers. If they piled enough goodies in the basket, they might even make 1.1 look tasty to enough 3rd party publishers to chow down on. Royalties and all.
A "SRD Beyond" document that includes (selected) stuff from the sword coast, xanathars, tasha's and Mordkainen expansions?
A repository of battlemaps, digital tokens, artworks and locations that can be used in adventures plug and play (you want roll20 onboard, right?)
Put down the stick, pick up your basket of carrots and get to work!
1: 3rd Party Creators no longer trust WotC, and are less likely to continue using OGL/SRD content even with the addition of some previously Copy Righted material because they didn't edit the SRD before putting in CC.
2: The Majority of their customer base, no longer sees D&D as the only choice, Pathfinder has sold out it's yearly inventory in the last 2 weeks, and has more orders for the core books than they can fill before April. That is a significant loss in revenue WotC will not get back
3: Community Trust and Good will, many of us use to use DnD as the shorthand for the hobby. Not anymore. I use TTRPG now, and some use P2E. D&D is no longer a term for the hobby, its lost a massive free adverting revenue from that change alone.
4: Streamers other than CR are switching to P2E, either when their current adventure ends or they just dropped D&D outright and made the switch.
5: ALL the D&D Youtube shows have changed. These were bread and butter ads for DnD and they have been the loudest voices against. Many don't feel they need WotC anymore.
6: Me and many like me who already refunded our DnDB subscriptions and don't plan on coming back. Today is the last day I will be posting, as it's just to finish out this event.
Buisness isn't about trust, it's about contracts.
Wizards thought they saw a loophole in a contract. That loophole, theoretically, is gone now. People who do business with a brand like wizards or cocacola or ford motors without an iron clad contract will get screwed every time. Not only do they have more lawyers than you do, but their lawyers get paid a salary.
Spoken like a person who's never read a book on economics. Your statement is only correct if your business doesn't have a customer facing, and is not publicly traded. Legal firms, Collections, Tax Services, sure you could make that argument. As they are only concerned with their contracts for revenue, and contracts with their employees or contract workers.
Every other industry on the Planet requires Trust more than contracts. Ford Motor Cars became the giant in the industry because of consumer trust, and Investor Trust. Ford is a safe and stable investment for both the customer and the investor. Coca Cola had one moment in history where it lost brand focus, and lost customer trust, "New Coke" it's why their are now artisan soda makers at all, if not for the mistake of New Coke Pepsi Cola would have a fraction of the market it does today, and there would not be off brand soda makers.
Hasbro royally screwed up, as it has both a public facing retail side and investors, and they lost trust with both at the same time. Most companies can weather loosing the trust of investors or customers, but few survive loosing both. Today they took the right step to regain the trust, and they might survive this winter. But The damage has been done, and the investors are looking closely right now, and some of the bigger investors want blood. Customer trust being lost means an interruption in revenue, Investor trust lost can cause the entire management staff to be replaced, and divisions of the company to be sold off. ie Daimler-Benz and Chrysler back a few years ago. Yeah turns out people in the USA didn't like Ram trucks being made by Mercedes-Benzes.
Wait.
What previously copyrighted material ended up in the CC by mistake?
yes.
here's a list:
That's amazing.
Let the dollar store brand Strahd von Zarovich's begin.
My biggest worry is that WotC will see that caving in, and giving more than was being asked, was met with more angry posts.
I Cancelled my Master Tier Subscription January 12th 2023 because of "OGL" 1.1 - Resubscribed 28th of Jan, now the SRD is in CC-BY-4.0
Well I did have a Legally distinct not Strahd and Not a Vampire BBEG in my setting book that was published like 10 years ago. I could totally revise that book and call him Strahd and make him a Vampire now.
The loss of 1.2 is the nail in D&Ds coffin (the company), it has little to no hope in the long term now. 3rd party creator's used this to pad their pockets just like WotC was accused of. But at least we got to see that all the "creator's" be it 3rd party or WotC are just businesses trying to make money. The community it just a side effect of this.