It was hard for me to get the right title for what I wanted this thread to be about, so feel free to suggest ways to better put it. My basic question to everyone is how powerful do you feel your characters should be as related to your favorite fictional heroes, or what fictional heroes should be the standard by which you judge your own characters in terms of strength? By example, I would imagine Conan is the exemplar of what Barbarian players expect their characters to match. For myself, I’m overall disappointed in the power of PC’s, especially for the level ranges most people seem to play at. You really don’t seem to approach Conan until maybe 15th level, but from my understanding, most people don’t really play higher than 11th roughly. So without me going into a long dissertation on my overall opinion and breaking down where things should be and where they’re at (IMO obviously) per class, I figured I’d start a thread and get people to let me know and talk about it here. Please note that this is a conversation I’m interested in: Let’s not start force feeding each other opinions or talking down to anyone. Thank you.
P.S. I fully agree that it’s debatable if Conan was a pure Barbarian or something more like a Barb/Rogue.
P.S.S I DM more often than not, and it’s my frustration with power levels that keeps me from really wanting to be a player.
It was already quite a while ago that I found an analysis by someone who analyzed the real-life equivalent of character levels (this was in 3e/3.5). The result was basically that around level 5/6 is the pinnacle of what normal humans can achieve. Which is also the kind of feats we see of more "realistic" heroes in media, let's say Conan as a Barbarian or Aragorn as a Ranger. It also fit with real-world examples he gave; Einstein would have been an "expert" with enough levels and specializations that he would have been able to make ground-breaking achievements in his field, which would have been a DC of around 40 in that edition, which he would have been able to do around level 5/6.
It was a really interesting read and got me thinking along the lines of what you are trying right now: What kind of idol do I want to match in overall power with my character?
Let's have a look at the tier levels: In tier 1 (until around level 5) the characters are the heroes of a local region. In tier 2 (until around level 10) the characters are the heroes of a country or maybe a continent. In tier 3 (until around level 15-17) the characters are the heroes of the world, unmatched by others. In tier 4 (until level 20) the characters are heroes of the multiverse/multiple planes of existence.
So until level 20 the characters basically become beings of mythical power in and of themselves. To me, a level 20 barbarian shouldn't feel like Conan. A level 20 barbarian should feel more like Hercules, who single-handedly slew beings like the hydra and the 3-headed, 6-armed giant Geryon. When level 20 wizards get around by gating in angels, creating demiplanes and clones of themselves and hopping around the planes of existence, then level 20 martials should be able of achievements that rival that level of awesomeness.
tldr: I think a level 20 barbarian (or fighter for that matter) should be able to cleave in two a small mountain and kool-aid-guy-style bust through solid walls while running. Which is, sadly, not what we get from DnD.
Conan is a barbarian of maybe level ... 6 or 7 or so. You just have to recall that most of his enemies are random dudes, footmen, city guards, mercenaries and other disposable goons. Whenever he faces someone powerful, he invariably struggles - but wins, because it's fiction and he's the main character. And for what it's worth, I saw this as someone who not only saw the movies, but read some books and comics and so on.
Also, Conan isn't a multiclass anything. I've never seen him pick a lock or disarm a trap. He uses strength or dexterity for all things - precisely like he has maybe advantage on such rolls, or some such.
Did anyone, however, watch Primal? Because Spear is one epic level barbarian mofo. He shrugs off unimaginable levels of punishment, way more than Conan ever does. It's .. slightly over the top, though. Even for me.
I want my barbarian to match Conan - not Spear. I'm sort of middle of the road, when it comes to power levels. Or at least, that how I see it.
It becomes a somewhat hypothetical discussion. I never play high enough level for wizards to completely run away with it - we haven't reached level 10 in ages. So everything is fine. Barbarians can wipe the floor with wizards most of the time, but wizards are kings of the map in actual play, due simply to aoe and crowd control.
And anyways, my reference for a wizards power level isn't a fictional character - because wizards are generally truly awfully written in fiction. Maybe Quothe would match? He isn't wildly overpowered, but he uses what powers he has with great intelligence. That'll do for me. Rutinely gating angels is a major design flaw.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Kvothe is busted by design lol. Dude singlehandedly fights off a bunch of monsters early on in the story, masters every intellectual pursuit, plays music that moves everyone to tears, sneaks past everyone effortlessly, knows how to survive in the wild... He's basically a gestalt of everything besides maybe a Cleric or Druid.
It's an interesting question, but really hard to answer. I mean, even in the latest D&D movie where you'd expect the heroes to literally have class levels, it's unclear how strong they're meant to be. Is Edgin even a Bard? Dude doesn't cast any spells. You know?
I think for the Monk it might be pretty simple though, because so much of their kit is drawn directly from movies. But I'm not that familiar with kung fu movies.
Kvothe is busted by design lol. Dude singlehandedly fights off a bunch of monsters early on in the story, masters every intellectual pursuit, plays music that moves everyone to tears, sneaks past everyone effortlessly, knows how to survive in the wild... He's basically a gestalt of everything besides maybe a Cleric or Druid.
Quothe is a bard. He also happens to be a namer (and an artificer). But the point is, his magical powers aren't overwhelming. He calls down lightning by inspiration and luck, not because that's one of his powers. It's really a story about how he uses know magics and powers to achieve extraordinary results.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yeah, he's not above level, idk, 6 in anything, but he's got at least 3 levels in everything. So he's a weird comparison.
I just got done reading The Name of the Wind, like, last week by the way. Local library doesn't have the second one. I'm waiting for it to go on sale somewhere.
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It was hard for me to get the right title for what I wanted this thread to be about, so feel free to suggest ways to better put it. My basic question to everyone is how powerful do you feel your characters should be as related to your favorite fictional heroes, or what fictional heroes should be the standard by which you judge your own characters in terms of strength? By example, I would imagine Conan is the exemplar of what Barbarian players expect their characters to match. For myself, I’m overall disappointed in the power of PC’s, especially for the level ranges most people seem to play at. You really don’t seem to approach Conan until maybe 15th level, but from my understanding, most people don’t really play higher than 11th roughly. So without me going into a long dissertation on my overall opinion and breaking down where things should be and where they’re at (IMO obviously) per class, I figured I’d start a thread and get people to let me know and talk about it here. Please note that this is a conversation I’m interested in: Let’s not start force feeding each other opinions or talking down to anyone. Thank you.
P.S. I fully agree that it’s debatable if Conan was a pure Barbarian or something more like a Barb/Rogue.
P.S.S I DM more often than not, and it’s my frustration with power levels that keeps me from really wanting to be a player.
It was already quite a while ago that I found an analysis by someone who analyzed the real-life equivalent of character levels (this was in 3e/3.5). The result was basically that around level 5/6 is the pinnacle of what normal humans can achieve. Which is also the kind of feats we see of more "realistic" heroes in media, let's say Conan as a Barbarian or Aragorn as a Ranger. It also fit with real-world examples he gave; Einstein would have been an "expert" with enough levels and specializations that he would have been able to make ground-breaking achievements in his field, which would have been a DC of around 40 in that edition, which he would have been able to do around level 5/6.
It was a really interesting read and got me thinking along the lines of what you are trying right now: What kind of idol do I want to match in overall power with my character?
Let's have a look at the tier levels:
In tier 1 (until around level 5) the characters are the heroes of a local region.
In tier 2 (until around level 10) the characters are the heroes of a country or maybe a continent.
In tier 3 (until around level 15-17) the characters are the heroes of the world, unmatched by others.
In tier 4 (until level 20) the characters are heroes of the multiverse/multiple planes of existence.
So until level 20 the characters basically become beings of mythical power in and of themselves. To me, a level 20 barbarian shouldn't feel like Conan. A level 20 barbarian should feel more like Hercules, who single-handedly slew beings like the hydra and the 3-headed, 6-armed giant Geryon. When level 20 wizards get around by gating in angels, creating demiplanes and clones of themselves and hopping around the planes of existence, then level 20 martials should be able of achievements that rival that level of awesomeness.
tldr: I think a level 20 barbarian (or fighter for that matter) should be able to cleave in two a small mountain and kool-aid-guy-style bust through solid walls while running. Which is, sadly, not what we get from DnD.
Really, it's best not to try and compare D&D characters to characters' power level from settings that are not related to D&D.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Conan is a barbarian of maybe level ... 6 or 7 or so. You just have to recall that most of his enemies are random dudes, footmen, city guards, mercenaries and other disposable goons. Whenever he faces someone powerful, he invariably struggles - but wins, because it's fiction and he's the main character. And for what it's worth, I saw this as someone who not only saw the movies, but read some books and comics and so on.
Also, Conan isn't a multiclass anything. I've never seen him pick a lock or disarm a trap. He uses strength or dexterity for all things - precisely like he has maybe advantage on such rolls, or some such.
Did anyone, however, watch Primal? Because Spear is one epic level barbarian mofo. He shrugs off unimaginable levels of punishment, way more than Conan ever does. It's .. slightly over the top, though. Even for me.
I want my barbarian to match Conan - not Spear. I'm sort of middle of the road, when it comes to power levels. Or at least, that how I see it.
It becomes a somewhat hypothetical discussion. I never play high enough level for wizards to completely run away with it - we haven't reached level 10 in ages. So everything is fine. Barbarians can wipe the floor with wizards most of the time, but wizards are kings of the map in actual play, due simply to aoe and crowd control.
And anyways, my reference for a wizards power level isn't a fictional character - because wizards are generally truly awfully written in fiction. Maybe Quothe would match? He isn't wildly overpowered, but he uses what powers he has with great intelligence. That'll do for me. Rutinely gating angels is a major design flaw.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Kvothe is busted by design lol. Dude singlehandedly fights off a bunch of monsters early on in the story, masters every intellectual pursuit, plays music that moves everyone to tears, sneaks past everyone effortlessly, knows how to survive in the wild... He's basically a gestalt of everything besides maybe a Cleric or Druid.
It's an interesting question, but really hard to answer. I mean, even in the latest D&D movie where you'd expect the heroes to literally have class levels, it's unclear how strong they're meant to be. Is Edgin even a Bard? Dude doesn't cast any spells. You know?
I think for the Monk it might be pretty simple though, because so much of their kit is drawn directly from movies. But I'm not that familiar with kung fu movies.
Quothe is a bard. He also happens to be a namer (and an artificer). But the point is, his magical powers aren't overwhelming. He calls down lightning by inspiration and luck, not because that's one of his powers. It's really a story about how he uses know magics and powers to achieve extraordinary results.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yeah, he's not above level, idk, 6 in anything, but he's got at least 3 levels in everything. So he's a weird comparison.
I just got done reading The Name of the Wind, like, last week by the way. Local library doesn't have the second one. I'm waiting for it to go on sale somewhere.