I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
Proficiency at saves is just defined at the class level. E.g. a druid is proficient in Wisdom and Intelligence saves. Barbarians do, in fact, have proficiency on Con saves. There isn't really any other way besides class to get saving throw proficiencies, so everyone gets two and that's it. Maybe some magic item. A Wish, obviously.
There really isn't a way to be Proficient in using your Constitution, because Con is useful for every class.
There are rules for travel over long distances. At a normal pace, a character can run at 3 miles per hour, and go 24 miles in 8 hours.
If someone wants to travel faster than that, well, a Marathon Runner would be considering doing a Forced March at the start of the race. That lets them run at 4 miles per hour and they end up traveling 30 miles in 8 hours.
Forced March. The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion.
For each additional hour of travel beyond 8 hours, the characters cover the distance shown in the Hour column for their pace, and each character must make a Constitution saving throw at the end of the hour. The DC is 10 + 1 for each hour past 8 hours. On a failed saving throw, a character suffers one level of exhaustion.
Proficiency at saves is just defined at the class level. E.g. a druid is proficient in Wisdom and Intelligence saves. Barbarians do, in fact, have proficiency on Con saves. There isn't really any other way besides class to get saving throw proficiencies, so everyone gets two and that's it. Maybe some magic item. A Wish, obviously.
I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
I agree.
I think Con, Dex and Str could use a few new skills generally associated with them. If you play a class with a primary stat of Cha, Int or Wis, you are rolling in skills(or at least the possibility) with good bonuses. I would like to see 5 skills for each attribute, if it were reasonable to present significantly different and useful skills in each case.
Samurai fighter gets proficiency in Wisdom saves at level 7. Rogues get proficiency in Wisdom saves at level 15. Monks get proficiency in all saves at level 14.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I started to talk about the option of using different scores with different skills, but it's "optional" after all, and I was trying to show what the rules say. It's also true that "endurance" has to do with doing stuff for a long time or dealing with unpleasant things. You already can save against things that are unpleasant with your Con, but going for longer periods of time? That's where the rules for Exhaustion come in. Increasing your listed walking speed has nothing to do with long distance travel, it's really only for movement in combat, and different classes and races modify it, so it ought not be something just given away to all classes.
Most skills really end up as flavor. That's one of the problems with Rangers. They get a bunch of skills that deal with natural surroundings, but they get out of the type of terrain they are designed for, many of their skills aren't all that useful.
It's rare that a History check does a whole lot, unless there's some vital bit of information buried in the books somewhere. It's not like a Player Character is schlepping around a library. Adding a bunch of skills so that each score has about the same number really isn't adding much to the game.
As far as I can see, the skills we have now were picked because they were the ones that came up most frequently in older versions of the game. It's not really practical to throw in more, and with the ability to use a Tool Proficiency and a bit of customizing, you can be a skilled Philosopher if you care to.
I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
I agree.
I think Con, Dex and Str could use a few new skills generally associated with them. If you play a class with a primary stat of Cha, Int or Wis, you are rolling in skills(or at least the possibility) with good bonuses. I would like to see 5 skills for each attribute, if it were reasonable to present significantly different and useful skills in each case.
Part of the problem as I see it is DMs forgetting that a skill can be used with different stats, and not just the one suggested in the skill list. Classic example of intimidate via strength instead of charisma.
I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
I agree.
I think Con, Dex and Str could use a few new skills generally associated with them. If you play a class with a primary stat of Cha, Int or Wis, you are rolling in skills(or at least the possibility) with good bonuses. I would like to see 5 skills for each attribute, if it were reasonable to present significantly different and useful skills in each case.
Part of the problem as I see it is DMs forgetting that a skill can be used with different stats, and not just the one suggested in the skill list. Classic example of intimidate via strength instead of charisma.
I did consider this, actually. What I put in bold and underlined is what I'm talking about. People who are primary stat users of these attributes will likely have worse skill ability with other skills and very few skills using said stat. I have never had a chance to roll a STR Arcana check for instance, for fairly obvious reasons.
This is really a non-issue. You can already make ability rolls with various skills and certain abilities (looking at you, Dex!) don't need any more skills. Also one must remember that certain abilities are useful for proficiencies that aren't covered by the skill list. Strength for example is needed to wear heavy armour.
Applying Constitution modifier to Athletics checks for endurance is one way to do it. A straight up constitution save is usually more thematically accurate, though. Most "endurance" isn't a technique that is learned but rather an innate physical quality, and that quality in question is exactly what the core ability score Constitution represents. To hold up under repetitious and/or sustained physical stress (aka endurance), you make a Constitution saving throw. If you want proficiency in Con saves and don't have them as a class feature, there's the Resilient feat, in the PHB (+1 to an ability score and proficiency in saves with that ability).
The problem with adding extra skills to fit extra situations is you get exactly what D&D Fifth Edition was designed to avoid: unnecessary complexity. 3.5 rules have much more detailed rules for skills, and it's easier to get access to more of them. 3.5 also has a specific skill for "Use Rope," a theoretically endless amount of profession specific Craft skills, separate skills for Spot and Listen (neither of which specifically cover something like noticing vibrations or strange odors which are all covered by 5e's Perception), Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft are both Int skills that 5e covers with just Arcana but you need to take them separately, a Concentration skill that takes up skill points and is only typically used to maintain concentration on spells in combat (5e just uses a Con save), separate skills for Climb, Jump, and Swim instead of the blanket Athletics, and I could go on. Does that sound like a lot of unnecessary information? That's exactly the system you're asking for with an extra "Endurance" skill. Either use a Con save or, if the DM rules it better fits the situation, apply the Constitution modifier to a different, already existing skill, such as Athletics.
Either use a Con save or, if the DM rules it better fits the situation, apply the Constitution modifier to a different, already existing skill, such as Athletics.
Just a small note. You don't add ability modifiers to skill rolls, you add skill proficiencies to ability checks.
Read the rules again, it clearly states that the DM can change which attribute applies to a skill use at their discretion. Running comes under Athletics which is usually rolled as Strength + Athletics, but there is no reason you couldn't swap Strength for Constitution for longer duration exertion such as marathon running, or rowing a boat across an ocean or large lake etc. It is completely up to the DM what to ask for on a skill check - just be fair to all players, and don't show bias when deciding. Another example could be a trick shot with a ranged weapon - such as a circus knife thrower, which could call for Intelligence + proficiency instead of Dexterity to work out the angles, or even Wisdom to correctly judge when to throw to hit a moving balloon.
It's not like a Player Character is schlepping around a library.
Elysium forbid. Next thing you know, they'll be setting an entire sourcebook in a library
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
CON is suggested in the DMG chase guidance to determine when a DM needs to call for checks after multiple rounds of taking dash actions (basically sprinting rules). I throw Athletics on top of that. It's why I like building rogues with high CON and Athletics expertise, they never skip cardio day and have seen every movie where Tom Cruise or Jason Statham sprints.
Not really, we're talking I believe a character covering 720 feet over 8 rounds without needing their CON (+athletics) check for gassing out. Assuming they can keep that pace (likely with athletics meaning they're only failing on 1s and 2s) they're capable of doing sub 6:00 (5:51-5:52) minute miles. That's not track star fast but that's fairly fast for someone presumptively kitted out in adventurer gear.
I actually like how the exhaustion mechanic works in relation to these sprinting. First failure is a sign to stop, beyond that it seems to fit with high twitch muscle injuries. Clearly if you wanted to run a marathon you probably wouldn't be going at these sprint speeds mechanically (my competitive distance speeds ... I wasn't so much good at 5ks but 10ks to marathons was always 1-2 minutes slower than my track paces, at least for me and a lot of other runners it's a totally different type of running).
If the character had a superior STR to CON, I _might_ let them use STR for the # of times they can dash without checking, but it'll still be a CON check. This would be like someone of a NFL build running on power and then getting winded and CON vulnerable.
CON is suggested in the DMG chase guidance to determine when a DM needs to call for checks after multiple rounds of taking dash actions (basically sprinting rules). I throw Athletics on top of that. It's why I like building rogues with high CON and Athletics expertise, they never skip cardio day and have seen every movie where Tom Cruise or Jason Statham sprints.
Or that scene in The Transporter where he does a chase on a bicycle.
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I understand we have constitution save. But it would be nice to be able to have Expertise in such things. Such as a Marathon Runner who dedicated to training their endurance for running.
Plus it would be nice to have a skill for Constitution.
Proficiency at saves is just defined at the class level. E.g. a druid is proficient in Wisdom and Intelligence saves. Barbarians do, in fact, have proficiency on Con saves. There isn't really any other way besides class to get saving throw proficiencies, so everyone gets two and that's it. Maybe some magic item. A Wish, obviously.
There really isn't a way to be Proficient in using your Constitution, because Con is useful for every class.
There are rules for travel over long distances. At a normal pace, a character can run at 3 miles per hour, and go 24 miles in 8 hours.
If someone wants to travel faster than that, well, a Marathon Runner would be considering doing a Forced March at the start of the race. That lets them run at 4 miles per hour and they end up traveling 30 miles in 8 hours.
Forced March. The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion.
For each additional hour of travel beyond 8 hours, the characters cover the distance shown in the Hour column for their pace, and each character must make a Constitution saving throw at the end of the hour. The DC is 10 + 1 for each hour past 8 hours. On a failed saving throw, a character suffers one level of exhaustion.
<Insert clever signature here>
Resilient Feat.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I agree.
I think Con, Dex and Str could use a few new skills generally associated with them. If you play a class with a primary stat of Cha, Int or Wis, you are rolling in skills(or at least the possibility) with good bonuses. I would like to see 5 skills for each attribute, if it were reasonable to present significantly different and useful skills in each case.
Samurai fighter gets proficiency in Wisdom saves at level 7. Rogues get proficiency in Wisdom saves at level 15. Monks get proficiency in all saves at level 14.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don’t disagree. Currently I use a Constitution (Athletics) check for endurance.
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That seems like a reasonable way to do it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You could use other skills, like Constitution (Arcana) for pulling an all-nighter to copy spells.
I started to talk about the option of using different scores with different skills, but it's "optional" after all, and I was trying to show what the rules say. It's also true that "endurance" has to do with doing stuff for a long time or dealing with unpleasant things. You already can save against things that are unpleasant with your Con, but going for longer periods of time? That's where the rules for Exhaustion come in. Increasing your listed walking speed has nothing to do with long distance travel, it's really only for movement in combat, and different classes and races modify it, so it ought not be something just given away to all classes.
Most skills really end up as flavor. That's one of the problems with Rangers. They get a bunch of skills that deal with natural surroundings, but they get out of the type of terrain they are designed for, many of their skills aren't all that useful.
It's rare that a History check does a whole lot, unless there's some vital bit of information buried in the books somewhere. It's not like a Player Character is schlepping around a library. Adding a bunch of skills so that each score has about the same number really isn't adding much to the game.
As far as I can see, the skills we have now were picked because they were the ones that came up most frequently in older versions of the game. It's not really practical to throw in more, and with the ability to use a Tool Proficiency and a bit of customizing, you can be a skilled Philosopher if you care to.
<Insert clever signature here>
This is the answer to OP's question. Straight out of the PHB on page 175. :)
Part of the problem as I see it is DMs forgetting that a skill can be used with different stats, and not just the one suggested in the skill list. Classic example of intimidate via strength instead of charisma.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I did consider this, actually. What I put in bold and underlined is what I'm talking about. People who are primary stat users of these attributes will likely have worse skill ability with other skills and very few skills using said stat. I have never had a chance to roll a STR Arcana check for instance, for fairly obvious reasons.
This is really a non-issue. You can already make ability rolls with various skills and certain abilities (looking at you, Dex!) don't need any more skills. Also one must remember that certain abilities are useful for proficiencies that aren't covered by the skill list. Strength for example is needed to wear heavy armour.
Applying Constitution modifier to Athletics checks for endurance is one way to do it. A straight up constitution save is usually more thematically accurate, though. Most "endurance" isn't a technique that is learned but rather an innate physical quality, and that quality in question is exactly what the core ability score Constitution represents. To hold up under repetitious and/or sustained physical stress (aka endurance), you make a Constitution saving throw. If you want proficiency in Con saves and don't have them as a class feature, there's the Resilient feat, in the PHB (+1 to an ability score and proficiency in saves with that ability).
The problem with adding extra skills to fit extra situations is you get exactly what D&D Fifth Edition was designed to avoid: unnecessary complexity. 3.5 rules have much more detailed rules for skills, and it's easier to get access to more of them. 3.5 also has a specific skill for "Use Rope," a theoretically endless amount of profession specific Craft skills, separate skills for Spot and Listen (neither of which specifically cover something like noticing vibrations or strange odors which are all covered by 5e's Perception), Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft are both Int skills that 5e covers with just Arcana but you need to take them separately, a Concentration skill that takes up skill points and is only typically used to maintain concentration on spells in combat (5e just uses a Con save), separate skills for Climb, Jump, and Swim instead of the blanket Athletics, and I could go on. Does that sound like a lot of unnecessary information? That's exactly the system you're asking for with an extra "Endurance" skill. Either use a Con save or, if the DM rules it better fits the situation, apply the Constitution modifier to a different, already existing skill, such as Athletics.
Just a small note. You don't add ability modifiers to skill rolls, you add skill proficiencies to ability checks.
Read the rules again, it clearly states that the DM can change which attribute applies to a skill use at their discretion. Running comes under Athletics which is usually rolled as Strength + Athletics, but there is no reason you couldn't swap Strength for Constitution for longer duration exertion such as marathon running, or rowing a boat across an ocean or large lake etc. It is completely up to the DM what to ask for on a skill check - just be fair to all players, and don't show bias when deciding. Another example could be a trick shot with a ranged weapon - such as a circus knife thrower, which could call for Intelligence + proficiency instead of Dexterity to work out the angles, or even Wisdom to correctly judge when to throw to hit a moving balloon.
Elysium forbid. Next thing you know, they'll be setting an entire sourcebook in a library
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
CON is suggested in the DMG chase guidance to determine when a DM needs to call for checks after multiple rounds of taking dash actions (basically sprinting rules). I throw Athletics on top of that. It's why I like building rogues with high CON and Athletics expertise, they never skip cardio day and have seen every movie where Tom Cruise or Jason Statham sprints.
Not really, we're talking I believe a character covering 720 feet over 8 rounds without needing their CON (+athletics) check for gassing out. Assuming they can keep that pace (likely with athletics meaning they're only failing on 1s and 2s) they're capable of doing sub 6:00 (5:51-5:52) minute miles. That's not track star fast but that's fairly fast for someone presumptively kitted out in adventurer gear.
I actually like how the exhaustion mechanic works in relation to these sprinting. First failure is a sign to stop, beyond that it seems to fit with high twitch muscle injuries. Clearly if you wanted to run a marathon you probably wouldn't be going at these sprint speeds mechanically (my competitive distance speeds ... I wasn't so much good at 5ks but 10ks to marathons was always 1-2 minutes slower than my track paces, at least for me and a lot of other runners it's a totally different type of running).
If the character had a superior STR to CON, I _might_ let them use STR for the # of times they can dash without checking, but it'll still be a CON check. This would be like someone of a NFL build running on power and then getting winded and CON vulnerable.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Or that scene in The Transporter where he does a chase on a bicycle.