Almost all of the starter equipment packages come with a backpack and it only holds 30lbs. Even without the 10lbs of rope a starting adventurer's backpack is overloaded by rations alone.
Why? Why aren't backpacks 60lbs, sacks 30lbs and pouches 6lbs? As a DM I constantly have to buy sacks for my players and shift their equipment around to avoid bursting containers and it does add some item management issues for exploration which is fun. None the less a 50lbs-60lbs backpack makes more sense considering the weight of most starting packages.
Your nick makes me think you might be Danish. Your post makes me think you may underestimate your true power as a GM. You want backpacks to hold 60 pounds? Say the words, and it is so.
I agree with the overall sentiment: Someone should have gone to the trouble of adding up the weight of the content of the packs, before setting it in print and publishing. But other than that, you have the power to solve your own problem with but a few words spoken =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As a DM, it's been over 14 years since I worried about carry weight in any shape or fashion. You are the final say as to what rules are used, and how things work in a world, I generally skip over any micro management type rules as they quickly become an interference between fun and gameplay. I only concerned about weight when the narration of the story requires it, and I usually make a Bag of Holding available to a party by level 3. (my current party has a funny RP were they fear their bag of holding, as DM I know it's safe, but I'm not going to say a word about that because the player made drama around it is so much fun.)
I swear the devs have never done any actual camping, were never in scouts or equivalent and have zero idea of what the real world is like outside of cities. At best, they are used to tiny little day packs and have never seen a proper frame pack.
Heh - very true.
When I was in the military (this was in 91), we still had the basic strap harness thing that the american troops used in WW2. It was an absolutely awful contraption, difficult to adjust, didn't hold much of anything, was crappy to wear (carry?). And still, it held 100 pounds of gear, all packed in there with scientific precision. Well, for exercise purposes it would be only 72 pounds, but in a real combat situation, we'd have been expected to carry even more in that crappy old junk.
30 pounds is ... like, that's a schoolbag =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I swear the devs have never done any actual camping, were never in scouts or equivalent and have zero idea of what the real world is like outside of cities. At best, they are used to tiny little day packs and have never seen a proper frame pack.
Heh - very true.
When I was in the military (this was in 91), we still had the basic strap harness thing that the american troops used in WW2. It was an absolutely awful contraption, difficult to adjust, didn't hold much of anything, was crappy to wear (carry?). And still, it held 100 pounds of gear, all packed in there with scientific precision. Well, for exercise purposes it would be only 72 pounds, but in a real combat situation, we'd have been expected to carry even more in that crappy old junk.
30 pounds is ... like, that's a schoolbag =)
This is what I am used to. It is actually a WWI design, lol, or at least interwar years.
Bah, can't get the image to work
Trapper Nelson frame pack
Little did we know the Backpack was really just a trapper keeper binder. Lol this is what I mean a backpack holds way more than 30lbs.
And what about volume. That should be on the sheet for containers.
They're designed so even low-STR characters can carry them comfortably. Why do you need days and days of rations on your person at all times? Aren't you getting constantly drenched in water, monster poison, blood, acid...? I mean yeah, there's nothing in the rules that says your dry rations would get spoiled by being submerged in a pool of poison, but c'mon.
There is room for a larger backpack as an option for stronger PCs. That would make sense. But I will always have an axe to grind with the infinite inventory.
As a DM, it's been over 14 years since I worried about carry weight in any shape or fashion. You are the final say as to what rules are used, and how things work in a world, I generally skip over any micro management type rules as they quickly become an interference between fun and gameplay. I only concerned about weight when the narration of the story requires it, and I usually make a Bag of Holding available to a party by level 3. (my current party has a funny RP were they fear their bag of holding, as DM I know it's safe, but I'm not going to say a word about that because the player made drama around it is so much fun.)
My players have a weird habit of collecting dead bodies in their Bags of Holding. No idea why but I just let them and look up stat blocks for the Bagman monster in the Ravenloft book for when I decide all the bodies have come back to life
They're designed so even low-STR characters can carry them comfortably. Why do you need days and days of rations on your person at all times? Aren't you getting constantly drenched in water, monster poison, blood, acid...? I mean yeah, there's nothing in the rules that says your dry rations would get spoiled by being submerged in a pool of poison, but c'mon.
There is room for a larger backpack as an option for stronger PCs. That would make sense. But I will always have an axe to grind with the infinite inventory.
The lowers possible strength score a player can have is 3–and even that requires you to both be in a campaign where you are rolling for stats and for you to roll a set of numbers with a 0.000625% probability. Even with that strength score, your carry weight would be 45–more than enough for light armor, a staff, and no where to put the rest of your stuff since your backpack is full.
Your post also makes me think you have not done much overland backpacking. For starters, weaker individuals can still easily carry a backpack rated for more weight than they can hold—if you can only hold 45 pounds, there’s nothing really stopping you from having a backpack rated for sixty pounds or a hundred pounds.
Next, if you are going into the wilderness, you should always have enough food to cover how long you expect to be travelling as well as some additional food for emergencies. Having a Ranger or someone else adept at hunting or foraging can certainly help ease the burden, but that is not always going to be an option for every type of party or everywhere you travel (particularly dangerous, frozen, or magical environments, for example, where there might not be food or food safe to eat). There is a reason the base kit carries ten days of rations—that is pretty standard for folks to carry if they are going into the wilds, even if they are particularly adept at survival.
Additionally, bigger backpacks does not mean infinite inventory in the slightest—there still are hard caps on weight folks can carry.
Frankly. I think you fundamentally missed the complaint of this thread: It is not that the inventory is too small, it is that the math just does not work out. Let’s break down the numbers. A basic Explorer’s Kit contains: a bedroll (7 lbs); mess kit (1 lbs); tinderbox (1 lbs); ten torches (10 lbs); ten days of rations (20 lbs); waterskin (5 lbs); 50 feet of rope (10 lbs).
The bedroll and rope strap to the outside and do not count toward the weight limit, and you could probably justify strapping your waterskin to the outside. Your remaining starting gear takes up… 32 pounds in your 30 pound backpack.
All told, this is extremely bad game design that seems to show an ignorance of both the game’s own rules regarding item weights and player carrying capacity, and a fundamental lack of understanding of how travel backpacks work. This is not a player issue, a lack of inventory weight having meaning issue, or a playstyle issue; this is firmly a “Whoops, someone in game design cannot so math” issue.
In my group we still track carry capacity, but we don't really think much about where, exactly, every item you're carrying is kept. We definitely don't track what's in the backpack, what's tied to your waist, etc. Just as long as everything you're carrying adds up to less than your carry capacity, you're fine. It's definitely a very "videogames" idea, where basically anything you're carrying just kind of disappears into your body until you pull it out.
I'm not really going to get into this discussion, except to point out that the sort of backpacks we're used to are very dependent on modern materials. A five pound backpack is not going to have a serious support frame without aluminum tubes.
Should there be a heavier item to represent a backpack with an external wooden frame? Probably
Did the designers of whatever edition those backpack stats are originally from do any real research? Probably not
Is 30 pounds for a simple leather pack realistic? I have no idea, nor do I particularly care
I've never even used maximum weight for what you can carry in my campaigns and have never played with it. You can easily just change it to 50 or 60 pounds in your game and how much a backpack can hold really isn't the most impactful aspect of D&D.
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As a DM, it's been over 14 years since I worried about carry weight in any shape or fashion. You are the final say as to what rules are used, and how things work in a world, I generally skip over any micro management type rules as they quickly become an interference between fun and gameplay. I only concerned about weight when the narration of the story requires it, and I usually make a Bag of Holding available to a party by level 3. (my current party has a funny RP were they fear their bag of holding, as DM I know it's safe, but I'm not going to say a word about that because the player made drama around it is so much fun.)
DON’T take this advice, Heydanseegil. By not tracking weight, you are giving strength based characters a gigantic nerf. One of the major selling points of a strength based character is they can carry more, and are thus able to mule gear for the party and lug more treasure out of the dungeon. Item weight is part of the game. Tracking it is part of the game. Rations, arrows, consumable items of any kind and the tracking of them is part of the game. Part of the fun.
I have yet to use the backpack/container option on the character sheet. Where items are stowed isn’t important to my group. Now if my character was encumbered with the sheet tracking overall weight, then I might look at it, but it hasn’t happened yet.
Contrary to the claims of some, play what your table thinks of fun. If that is tracking the minutiae and endless lists of everything you've ever touched, then crack on. If you don't track weight at all, like most groups, and find tracking stuff tedious, then don't. It's a game. Do what's fun for you.
Back on topic, the general thing taught is 20% of your body weight. Newer studies adjust that somewhat, but that's everything including the backpack and stuff packed on the outside.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
They're designed so even low-STR characters can carry them comfortably. Why do you need days and days of rations on your person at all times? Aren't you getting constantly drenched in water, monster poison, blood, acid...? I mean yeah, there's nothing in the rules that says your dry rations would get spoiled by being submerged in a pool of poison, but c'mon.
There is room for a larger backpack as an option for stronger PCs. That would make sense. But I will always have an axe to grind with the infinite inventory.
I am not strong, very skinny and can carry 60 lbs of gear on my back for several miles
As a DM, it's been over 14 years since I worried about carry weight in any shape or fashion. You are the final say as to what rules are used, and how things work in a world, I generally skip over any micro management type rules as they quickly become an interference between fun and gameplay. I only concerned about weight when the narration of the story requires it, and I usually make a Bag of Holding available to a party by level 3. (my current party has a funny RP were they fear their bag of holding, as DM I know it's safe, but I'm not going to say a word about that because the player made drama around it is so much fun.)
DON’T take this advice, Heydanseegil. By not tracking weight, you are giving strength based characters a gigantic nerf. One of the major selling points of a strength based character is they can carry more, and are thus able to mule gear for the party and lug more treasure out of the dungeon. Item weight is part of the game. Tracking it is part of the game. Rations, arrows, consumable items of any kind and the tracking of them is part of the game. Part of the fun.
The very fact that almost every item in the game has a defined weight, or encumbrance, proves that tracking weight, among other things, is a key element of the game.
Such a key element that the rules on carrying capacity include
Your carrying capacity is your Strength score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
[...]
The rules for lifting and carrying are intentionally simple
They're there. You can use them. There are even slightly more complicated rules you can use if you want. Most people don't find nitpicky accounting to be a big part of their fun in a heroic adventure game, so there's a lot of hand-waving and vague approximation.
Also, the bag of holding has been a much-beloved item since the early days for a reason, and that reason is that most people don't want to care.
They're designed so even low-STR characters can carry them comfortably. Why do you need days and days of rations on your person at all times? Aren't you getting constantly drenched in water, monster poison, blood, acid...? I mean yeah, there's nothing in the rules that says your dry rations would get spoiled by being submerged in a pool of poison, but c'mon.
There is room for a larger backpack as an option for stronger PCs. That would make sense. But I will always have an axe to grind with the infinite inventory.
I am not strong, very skinny and can carry 60 lbs of gear on my back for several miles
Okay, but can you fight while wearing one? And are you three feet tall like some PCs?
Like I said, I can see the argument for having larger backpacks.
As a DM, it's been over 14 years since I worried about carry weight in any shape or fashion. You are the final say as to what rules are used, and how things work in a world, I generally skip over any micro management type rules as they quickly become an interference between fun and gameplay. I only concerned about weight when the narration of the story requires it, and I usually make a Bag of Holding available to a party by level 3. (my current party has a funny RP were they fear their bag of holding, as DM I know it's safe, but I'm not going to say a word about that because the player made drama around it is so much fun.)
DON’T take this advice, Heydanseegil. By not tracking weight, you are giving strength based characters a gigantic nerf. One of the major selling points of a strength based character is they can carry more, and are thus able to mule gear for the party and lug more treasure out of the dungeon. Item weight is part of the game. Tracking it is part of the game. Rations, arrows, consumable items of any kind and the tracking of them is part of the game. Part of the fun.
The very fact that almost every item in the game has a defined weight, or encumbrance, proves that tracking weight, among other things, is a key element of the game.
Correct. People will argue that it’s tedious, but I don’t see it that way. It is simply the game. Always has been. Management of your carry capacity is an important aspect of being a good D&D player- what is your next mission, how much and what gear and rations do you expect to need, how much do you want to leave free to haul as much treasure back as you possibly can?
At my table this stuff matters. The problem with ignoring rules is that it is a slippery slope. Is missing attack roles tedious? Let’s just have players always hit. That sort of thing.
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Almost all of the starter equipment packages come with a backpack and it only holds 30lbs. Even without the 10lbs of rope a starting adventurer's backpack is overloaded by rations alone.
Why? Why aren't backpacks 60lbs, sacks 30lbs and pouches 6lbs? As a DM I constantly have to buy sacks for my players and shift their equipment around to avoid bursting containers and it does add some item management issues for exploration which is fun. None the less a 50lbs-60lbs backpack makes more sense considering the weight of most starting packages.
It aggravates me.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Your nick makes me think you might be Danish. Your post makes me think you may underestimate your true power as a GM. You want backpacks to hold 60 pounds? Say the words, and it is so.
I agree with the overall sentiment: Someone should have gone to the trouble of adding up the weight of the content of the packs, before setting it in print and publishing. But other than that, you have the power to solve your own problem with but a few words spoken =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I think that may be an indication of what can go into it, not necessarily be tied to it, pinned to it, or otherwise attached to it.
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As a DM, it's been over 14 years since I worried about carry weight in any shape or fashion. You are the final say as to what rules are used, and how things work in a world, I generally skip over any micro management type rules as they quickly become an interference between fun and gameplay. I only concerned about weight when the narration of the story requires it, and I usually make a Bag of Holding available to a party by level 3. (my current party has a funny RP were they fear their bag of holding, as DM I know it's safe, but I'm not going to say a word about that because the player made drama around it is so much fun.)
Heh - very true.
When I was in the military (this was in 91), we still had the basic strap harness thing that the american troops used in WW2. It was an absolutely awful contraption, difficult to adjust, didn't hold much of anything, was crappy to wear (carry?). And still, it held 100 pounds of gear, all packed in there with scientific precision. Well, for exercise purposes it would be only 72 pounds, but in a real combat situation, we'd have been expected to carry even more in that crappy old junk.
30 pounds is ... like, that's a schoolbag =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Little did we know the Backpack was really just a trapper keeper binder. Lol this is what I mean a backpack holds way more than 30lbs.
And what about volume. That should be on the sheet for containers.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
They're designed so even low-STR characters can carry them comfortably. Why do you need days and days of rations on your person at all times? Aren't you getting constantly drenched in water, monster poison, blood, acid...? I mean yeah, there's nothing in the rules that says your dry rations would get spoiled by being submerged in a pool of poison, but c'mon.
There is room for a larger backpack as an option for stronger PCs. That would make sense. But I will always have an axe to grind with the infinite inventory.
My players have a weird habit of collecting dead bodies in their Bags of Holding. No idea why but I just let them and look up stat blocks for the Bagman monster in the Ravenloft book for when I decide all the bodies have come back to life
The lowers possible strength score a player can have is 3–and even that requires you to both be in a campaign where you are rolling for stats and for you to roll a set of numbers with a 0.000625% probability. Even with that strength score, your carry weight would be 45–more than enough for light armor, a staff, and no where to put the rest of your stuff since your backpack is full.
Your post also makes me think you have not done much overland backpacking. For starters, weaker individuals can still easily carry a backpack rated for more weight than they can hold—if you can only hold 45 pounds, there’s nothing really stopping you from having a backpack rated for sixty pounds or a hundred pounds.
Next, if you are going into the wilderness, you should always have enough food to cover how long you expect to be travelling as well as some additional food for emergencies. Having a Ranger or someone else adept at hunting or foraging can certainly help ease the burden, but that is not always going to be an option for every type of party or everywhere you travel (particularly dangerous, frozen, or magical environments, for example, where there might not be food or food safe to eat). There is a reason the base kit carries ten days of rations—that is pretty standard for folks to carry if they are going into the wilds, even if they are particularly adept at survival.
Additionally, bigger backpacks does not mean infinite inventory in the slightest—there still are hard caps on weight folks can carry.
Frankly. I think you fundamentally missed the complaint of this thread: It is not that the inventory is too small, it is that the math just does not work out. Let’s break down the numbers. A basic Explorer’s Kit contains: a bedroll (7 lbs); mess kit (1 lbs); tinderbox (1 lbs); ten torches (10 lbs); ten days of rations (20 lbs); waterskin (5 lbs); 50 feet of rope (10 lbs).
The bedroll and rope strap to the outside and do not count toward the weight limit, and you could probably justify strapping your waterskin to the outside. Your remaining starting gear takes up… 32 pounds in your 30 pound backpack.
All told, this is extremely bad game design that seems to show an ignorance of both the game’s own rules regarding item weights and player carrying capacity, and a fundamental lack of understanding of how travel backpacks work. This is not a player issue, a lack of inventory weight having meaning issue, or a playstyle issue; this is firmly a “Whoops, someone in game design cannot so math” issue.
In my group we still track carry capacity, but we don't really think much about where, exactly, every item you're carrying is kept. We definitely don't track what's in the backpack, what's tied to your waist, etc. Just as long as everything you're carrying adds up to less than your carry capacity, you're fine. It's definitely a very "videogames" idea, where basically anything you're carrying just kind of disappears into your body until you pull it out.
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I'm not really going to get into this discussion, except to point out that the sort of backpacks we're used to are very dependent on modern materials. A five pound backpack is not going to have a serious support frame without aluminum tubes.
Should there be a heavier item to represent a backpack with an external wooden frame? Probably
Did the designers of whatever edition those backpack stats are originally from do any real research? Probably not
Is 30 pounds for a simple leather pack realistic? I have no idea, nor do I particularly care
I've never even used maximum weight for what you can carry in my campaigns and have never played with it. You can easily just change it to 50 or 60 pounds in your game and how much a backpack can hold really isn't the most impactful aspect of D&D.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.DON’T take this advice, Heydanseegil. By not tracking weight, you are giving strength based characters a gigantic nerf. One of the major selling points of a strength based character is they can carry more, and are thus able to mule gear for the party and lug more treasure out of the dungeon. Item weight is part of the game. Tracking it is part of the game. Rations, arrows, consumable items of any kind and the tracking of them is part of the game. Part of the fun.
I have yet to use the backpack/container option on the character sheet. Where items are stowed isn’t important to my group. Now if my character was encumbered with the sheet tracking overall weight, then I might look at it, but it hasn’t happened yet.
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Contrary to the claims of some, play what your table thinks of fun. If that is tracking the minutiae and endless lists of everything you've ever touched, then crack on. If you don't track weight at all, like most groups, and find tracking stuff tedious, then don't. It's a game. Do what's fun for you.
Back on topic, the general thing taught is 20% of your body weight. Newer studies adjust that somewhat, but that's everything including the backpack and stuff packed on the outside.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I am not strong, very skinny and can carry 60 lbs of gear on my back for several miles
The encumbrance thing soon sorts it self out.
As your party gains levels someone in the group can provide food either by a short gathering/hunting trip or by magic.
The same with shelter.
Encumbrance sorts itself out eventually. Either by the character spending cash to gain better equipment or trading it out for lighter coins/gems.
I just do not see it as a problem.
Such a key element that the rules on carrying capacity include
They're there. You can use them. There are even slightly more complicated rules you can use if you want. Most people don't find nitpicky accounting to be a big part of their fun in a heroic adventure game, so there's a lot of hand-waving and vague approximation.
Also, the bag of holding has been a much-beloved item since the early days for a reason, and that reason is that most people don't want to care.
Okay, but can you fight while wearing one? And are you three feet tall like some PCs?
Like I said, I can see the argument for having larger backpacks.
Correct. People will argue that it’s tedious, but I don’t see it that way. It is simply the game. Always has been. Management of your carry capacity is an important aspect of being a good D&D player- what is your next mission, how much and what gear and rations do you expect to need, how much do you want to leave free to haul as much treasure back as you possibly can?
At my table this stuff matters. The problem with ignoring rules is that it is a slippery slope. Is missing attack roles tedious? Let’s just have players always hit. That sort of thing.