Has anyone heard of an elixir or poison that would essentially make the person who ingests it subject to the same or similar effects of the suggestion spell?
Basically, I’m running a one shot and it hinges upon the PCs agreeing to go on a heist. The reward is a payment upon completion. Otherwise, I don’t know how to make the adventure work if the PCs don’t agree to go.
I mean, assuming the players are participating in good faith you shouldn't need in-game leverage like that, and if they aren't playing in good faith then really there's no point playing in the first place. It's generally not a good idea to actively subvert the entire group's agency with mind control stuff like that in any case.
You make a good point. I’m trying to create a heist adventure with a twist. I do have an NPC planned to intervene and use detect poison to gain understanding of what happened. But ultimately the main adventure is the heist The NPC is there to give the PCs an option to change their mind about returning the loot to their handlers. They could be cured of the poison, and make up their minds on how they want to proceed after they agree to and are en route to the objective. The new “objective” would be to confront their handlers and expose them as murderers, solving an open investigation.
You make a good point. I’m trying to create a heist adventure with a twist. I do have an NPC planned to intervene and use detect poison to gain understanding of what happened. But ultimately the main adventure is the heist The NPC is there to give the PCs an option to change their mind about returning the loot to their handlers. They could be cured of the poison, and make up their minds on how they want to proceed after they agree to and are en route to the objective. The new “objective” would be to confront their handlers and expose them as murderers, solving an open investigation.
"Heist with a betrayal" is also a classic trope. There are plenty of routes to the decision you're after that don't require the setup you were describing.
Another way of doing it might be to say, during character creation "You've been pressured into doing a heist for these people. Tell me what leverage they have on you."
Also, if you do want to run with the setup you're describing, you don't need a preexisting poison. You just need to say "there was a poison".
“Also, if you do want to run with the setup you're describing, you don't need a preexisting poison. You just need to say "there was a poison".”
This is what I was hoping to hear. I wasn’t sure if it was frowned upon or absurd to do such a thing. Part of MY objective with the setup of the characters to accept the quest was the RP.
I mean, you could get mind-bending with it. The players build characters that would do the heist, they do the heist, then find out that actually they were poisoned only afterwards. I'd leave the door open to characters being like "well, you didn't need to poison me to get me to do that, it actually had no effect on me..." (Like a Zone of Truth wouldn't affect a person who didn't have it in them to lie in the first place), but it also gives them an opportunity to reforge their character mid-adventure if they wanted, and perhaps they weren't really that scoundrel that would do a heist - the potion tricked them into thinking they were. That could be an interesting development to pursue. Or the entire party could have been like "WTF did you waste good poison on us? We're all scoundrels anyway and it had no effect!", if they wanted to keep those characters - which is an interesting development too.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I mean, you could get mind-bending with it. The players build characters that would do the heist, they do the heist, then find out that actually they were poisoned only afterwards. I'd leave the door open to characters being like "well, you didn't need to poison me to get me to do that, it actually had no effect on me..." (Like a Zone of Truth wouldn't affect a person who didn't have it in them to lie in the first place), but it also gives them an opportunity to reforge their character mid-adventure if they wanted, and perhaps they weren't really that scoundrel that would do a heist - the potion tricked them into thinking they were. That could be an interesting development to pursue. Or the entire party could have been like "WTF did you waste good poison on us? We're all scoundrels anyway and it had no effect!", if they wanted to keep those characters - which is an interesting development too.
If it's a one-shot, just start it in the middle of the heist
Tell the players they are making characters for a heist scenario. When you get to the table though, ditch the usual "you have been hired by X to do Y" setup, planning and initial infiltration parts of the heist and drop them right into some situation that requires immediate action, like they're about to get discovered by guards or something
Then when the fight or whatever is over and they have a chance to breathe... that's when they realize they have no memory of how they got wherever they are, even though their objective is clear in their minds (i.e. the poison, or whatever was used on them, is starting to wear off, although they don't know that yet). Because they're surrounded by enemies and the only way out they know is to go through with the plan that's in their heads, they're pushed to keep going, but they know something is wrong and you can gradually have their memories come back if it seems like they're inclined to find another solution
You could even toss in some heisty tropes that they'll have to reverse engineer -- i.e. why is one member of the party dressed like a guard/waiter/priest? Why is someone carrying an exact replica of the thing they're trying to steal? Etc. If you've ever seen the movie Paycheck, it might give you some ideas
Basically, you can mess around with the agency of the characters if you do it right, just don't take away agency from the players
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I recently ran a heist one-shot - here is what worked for me:
1. Every player was told from the start it would be a heist, and asked to make characters who would feel comfortable accepting a heist job. This eliminates anyone creating a character who was inherently antithetical to the one-shot. A brief backstory was requested 48 hours in advance of session.
2. Using the backstories I received, I wrote preexisting connections between each character, to ensure everyone knew of everyone else, and there would not be any “hey, nice to meet you, who are you and what can you do?” roleplaying. These were not super complex and were just there to establish the connection - “you worked a job together once which went south,” “you two play cards sometimes,” “you both travel in the same elite social circle.” Those kinds of things. In addition to reducing the need for “who are you” conversations, this also gave preexisting loyalties and conflicts.
3. Also using the backstories, I gave each player a secret motivation on why they were there. For example, the person who mentioned they sometimes were an informant was there as a mole. This gave everyone an independent reason to be at the heist.
This element, however, I would advise caution on. Each of my players was very clearly informed it would be that kind of heist - the kind of heist where everyone works together… right up until the primary objective was reached and the party cracks into PvP a la Reservoir Dogs (or the like). All of my players were cool with that and signed up for it from the start - if your players do not buy in, then you should not intentionally stoke PvP.
4. At the start of the session, when receiving the call to action, an NPC served them brandy. Anyone who took a sip was inflicted with a modified, very fatal version of Midnight Tears, and told they had a deadline to get the antidote. The important thing here was player agency - they chose to drink the brandy, or they didn’t. That was their choice, not mine, and, had they done things like insight checks, they would have noticed the host merely swirling her glass, never drinking from it.
This worked well for me, resulting in a heist which cut right to the planning and action and where every player was invested and motivated to move with some speed.
Has anyone heard of an elixir or poison that would essentially make the person who ingests it subject to the same or similar effects of the suggestion spell?
Basically, I’m running a one shot and it hinges upon the PCs agreeing to go on a heist. The reward is a payment upon completion. Otherwise, I don’t know how to make the adventure work if the PCs don’t agree to go.
So Scopolamine? Which is the real world drug invented over 200 years ago as an anesthetic. But in the right quantity can do this. It's made from the nightshade family of plants called Scopolia. It's been used for thousands of years in cultish religions, and magic btw. And yes this plant exists on Toril, and in lore is used exactly as we use it in our world.
I recently ran a heist one-shot - here is what worked for me:
1. Every player was told from the start it would be a heist, and asked to make characters who would feel comfortable accepting a heist job. This eliminates anyone creating a character who was inherently antithetical to the one-shot. A brief backstory was requested 48 hours in advance of session.
2. Using the backstories I received, I wrote preexisting connections between each character, to ensure everyone knew of everyone else, and there would not be any “hey, nice to meet you, who are you and what can you do?” roleplaying. These were not super complex and were just there to establish the connection - “you worked a job together once which went south,” “you two play cards sometimes,” “you both travel in the same elite social circle.” Those kinds of things. In addition to reducing the need for “who are you” conversations, this also gave preexisting loyalties and conflicts.
3. Also using the backstories, I gave each player a secret motivation on why they were there. For example, the person who mentioned they sometimes were an informant was there as a mole. This gave everyone an independent reason to be at the heist.
This element, however, I would advise caution on. Each of my players was very clearly informed it would be that kind of heist - the kind of heist where everyone works together… right up until the primary objective was reached and the party cracks into PvP a la Reservoir Dogs (or the like). All of my players were cool with that and signed up for it from the start - if your players do not buy in, then you should not intentionally stoke PvP.
4. At the start of the session, when receiving the call to action, an NPC served them brandy. Anyone who took a sip was inflicted with a modified, very fatal version of Midnight Tears, and told they had a deadline to get the antidote. The important thing here was player agency - they chose to drink the brandy, or they didn’t. That was their choice, not mine, and, had they done things like insight checks, they would have noticed the host merely swirling her glass, never drinking from it.
This worked well for me, resulting in a heist which cut right to the planning and action and where every player was invested and motivated to move with some speed.
While I would never run any PVP in 5th, and it's in my groups list of taboos. I do like this concept, and would totally play a game doing this, although I think VtM would be the better system and setting. My Lasombra would totally join such a heist.
Has anyone heard of an elixir or poison that would essentially make the person who ingests it subject to the same or similar effects of the suggestion spell?
Basically, I’m running a one shot and it hinges upon the PCs agreeing to go on a heist. The reward is a payment upon completion.
Otherwise, I don’t know how to make the adventure work if the PCs don’t agree to go.
I mean, assuming the players are participating in good faith you shouldn't need in-game leverage like that, and if they aren't playing in good faith then really there's no point playing in the first place. It's generally not a good idea to actively subvert the entire group's agency with mind control stuff like that in any case.
You make a good point.
I’m trying to create a heist adventure with a twist.
I do have an NPC planned to intervene and use detect poison to gain understanding of what happened. But ultimately the main adventure is the heist The NPC is there to give the PCs an option to change their mind about returning the loot to their handlers. They could be cured of the poison, and make up their minds on how they want to proceed after they agree to and are en route to the objective. The new “objective” would be to confront their handlers and expose them as murderers, solving an open investigation.
Yeah. Especially for one-shots, the way to do it is "you've been hired to do this heist". Let them make the characters who would do a heist.
One can run an entire campaign with the "this is the adventure" structure. You just need to get the players to agree to it up-front.
Thanks I appreciate this
"Heist with a betrayal" is also a classic trope. There are plenty of routes to the decision you're after that don't require the setup you were describing.
Another way of doing it might be to say, during character creation "You've been pressured into doing a heist for these people. Tell me what leverage they have on you."
Also, if you do want to run with the setup you're describing, you don't need a preexisting poison. You just need to say "there was a poison".
“Also, if you do want to run with the setup you're describing, you don't need a preexisting poison. You just need to say "there was a poison".”
This is what I was hoping to hear. I wasn’t sure if it was frowned upon or absurd to do such a thing. Part of MY objective with the setup of the characters to accept the quest was the RP.
I mean, you could get mind-bending with it. The players build characters that would do the heist, they do the heist, then find out that actually they were poisoned only afterwards. I'd leave the door open to characters being like "well, you didn't need to poison me to get me to do that, it actually had no effect on me..." (Like a Zone of Truth wouldn't affect a person who didn't have it in them to lie in the first place), but it also gives them an opportunity to reforge their character mid-adventure if they wanted, and perhaps they weren't really that scoundrel that would do a heist - the potion tricked them into thinking they were. That could be an interesting development to pursue. Or the entire party could have been like "WTF did you waste good poison on us? We're all scoundrels anyway and it had no effect!", if they wanted to keep those characters - which is an interesting development too.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If it's a one-shot, just start it in the middle of the heist
Tell the players they are making characters for a heist scenario. When you get to the table though, ditch the usual "you have been hired by X to do Y" setup, planning and initial infiltration parts of the heist and drop them right into some situation that requires immediate action, like they're about to get discovered by guards or something
Then when the fight or whatever is over and they have a chance to breathe... that's when they realize they have no memory of how they got wherever they are, even though their objective is clear in their minds (i.e. the poison, or whatever was used on them, is starting to wear off, although they don't know that yet). Because they're surrounded by enemies and the only way out they know is to go through with the plan that's in their heads, they're pushed to keep going, but they know something is wrong and you can gradually have their memories come back if it seems like they're inclined to find another solution
You could even toss in some heisty tropes that they'll have to reverse engineer -- i.e. why is one member of the party dressed like a guard/waiter/priest? Why is someone carrying an exact replica of the thing they're trying to steal? Etc. If you've ever seen the movie Paycheck, it might give you some ideas
Basically, you can mess around with the agency of the characters if you do it right, just don't take away agency from the players
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I recently ran a heist one-shot - here is what worked for me:
1. Every player was told from the start it would be a heist, and asked to make characters who would feel comfortable accepting a heist job. This eliminates anyone creating a character who was inherently antithetical to the one-shot. A brief backstory was requested 48 hours in advance of session.
2. Using the backstories I received, I wrote preexisting connections between each character, to ensure everyone knew of everyone else, and there would not be any “hey, nice to meet you, who are you and what can you do?” roleplaying. These were not super complex and were just there to establish the connection - “you worked a job together once which went south,” “you two play cards sometimes,” “you both travel in the same elite social circle.” Those kinds of things. In addition to reducing the need for “who are you” conversations, this also gave preexisting loyalties and conflicts.
3. Also using the backstories, I gave each player a secret motivation on why they were there. For example, the person who mentioned they sometimes were an informant was there as a mole. This gave everyone an independent reason to be at the heist.
This element, however, I would advise caution on. Each of my players was very clearly informed it would be that kind of heist - the kind of heist where everyone works together… right up until the primary objective was reached and the party cracks into PvP a la Reservoir Dogs (or the like). All of my players were cool with that and signed up for it from the start - if your players do not buy in, then you should not intentionally stoke PvP.
4. At the start of the session, when receiving the call to action, an NPC served them brandy. Anyone who took a sip was inflicted with a modified, very fatal version of Midnight Tears, and told they had a deadline to get the antidote. The important thing here was player agency - they chose to drink the brandy, or they didn’t. That was their choice, not mine, and, had they done things like insight checks, they would have noticed the host merely swirling her glass, never drinking from it.
This worked well for me, resulting in a heist which cut right to the planning and action and where every player was invested and motivated to move with some speed.
So Scopolamine? Which is the real world drug invented over 200 years ago as an anesthetic. But in the right quantity can do this. It's made from the nightshade family of plants called Scopolia. It's been used for thousands of years in cultish religions, and magic btw. And yes this plant exists on Toril, and in lore is used exactly as we use it in our world.
While I would never run any PVP in 5th, and it's in my groups list of taboos. I do like this concept, and would totally play a game doing this, although I think VtM would be the better system and setting. My Lasombra would totally join such a heist.