I’m a DM with a 12th level party but every fight, including boss fights, goes the same way for the Moon Druid in the party. They cannot be defeated in their elemental form while the rest of the party may be struggling. Because of the healing ability, it means their elemental ends up having 150 hit points to burn through and half the time they’re taking half damage on top.
I don’t want to force the player https://vshare****/ to have expended their wildshape just for the sake of making an encounter more difficult but I want to challenge them.
There is an intelligent spell caster villain who has been closely watching the party and I want them to have specific abilities that can tackle elementals - what are some abilities I could use?
A fire elemental has +0 Wisdom, meaning they are going to be susceptible to charm attacks and control magic. An intelligent enemy would seek to use the party’s main asset against the party, forcing the elemental to attack friends.
Additionally, you could just throw bigger enemies at the party - ones that might be lethal to others, but concentrate their attacks on the big scary living embodiment of fire. Or use enemies that shut down healing.
An Atropal, for example, would probably be a good enemy for your party - they hit hard, you can’t heal if you’re in their aura, and they will punish the elemental for using close range attacks.
remember tho, when a Druid wildshapes, it keeps the mental stats of the human form. And Druids tend to have high wisdom.
That being said, the overall solution is good Caerwyn, attack the Druid in it's weakest spot. If he dumped intelligence or charisma, find spells that target that save.
Also try to think how your players would react if you put a fire elemental in front of them, try to use their tactics against them. and if nothing else, scour the monster manual for things rarely seen to just throw more at them. toss adds that are resistant to the damage he does and swarm him. stuff like that.
Add in some fire resistant foes in the mix that focus on the druid. Water spells. Anything from dispelling to anti-magic can kick them from that form. Banishment. Other elementals like water. Do their foes have clerics or other casters that can cast fire resistance or such?
Or just add a couple casters with a limited number of spells to focus on the druid, but will likely be used up by the time it is for the rest of the party to deal with them.
Start using traps and ads. Build encounters so they aren't so "one and done." Send the ads in from different sides and in waves. Keep the party off balance and don't let them form a wall behind their meat. Force the druid to control them, not just tank them.
Set the forest on fire (fire elemental, yes?) and make the players deal with the local lordling who wants to know who started 3 forest fires this month in his land. Hire the party to "look into it!"
12th level is pretty high. Remember that that is intended to be enough to roll most common thugs and whoosits. Play into that, make a few dozen fights over a section of the campaign that are almost too easy and, instead of trying to put the druid down, try to let the rest of the party shine more. Then introduce them to Lacky number 7, the cleaner who was brought in specifically to hunt down the group and make them TOUGH. Make them a goal that the party actually needs to grow into, even. Play with the party's expectations.
Boost the Main Mob's health to ridiculous levels and keep sending the ads in in waves or give it a legendary action every 3-5 turns to summon more. Maybe even make the encounter arguably unwinnable, super-tank or no, and force them to retreat (give them an obvious WAY to retreat, like jumping into a quick moving river in an underground cavern.) Mcguffin quest time! Gotta get the thing so we can defeat the guy to make the lady pay us!
It's a known issue that moon druid is a little more survivable than perhaps it should be. The issue is that there's no interaction between wild-shape and any other abilities. I think the solution will be to houserule an interaction between wildshape and polymorph. To my mind that's the right level of danger--the druid's high wisdom save will prevent the spell from working every time, but a dedicated spellcaster who prepares and has goons to protect them--and perhaps one who is an arcane trickster and so can make use of Magical Ambush--can force the druid out of their wildshape.
*edit* also seconding anything with an aura. I've got a bare-knuckle rune knight fighter who can tear apart anything if given a few good rounds, but two shield guardians with flame shields did the trick on one notable occasion.
Magic circle, Banishment, and Forcecage come to mind. Umber hulk confusion would work - an item or special ability that mimics that effect would be a great counter. The villain has a ghost ally that can possesses the druid. Basically CHA saves are going to be the biggest weakness, other than the opposite element of course.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Starfleet Admiral Aaron Satie
This is highly contradicting. Magic Circle suggests the druid is a elemental type when wildshaped, but saying possession from a ghost suggests they are a humanoid because ghosts can only possess humanoids.
But, other than that, Spiked makes a good point. Confusion/forcecage could solo the druid out of the fight for a minute or two. But try not to solo them out and slaughter the party. It is a coop game, not team deathmatch
If they're saving both their wildshape uses for a fight then they deserve to feel powerful in that fight. What you should be doing instead is having more than one combat per Short Rest. You don't need to do this all the time, just often enough that they have to decide whether going nova in that first combat is truly worth it.
The standard advice is to talk to the player/s individually or collectively. They might have their own ideas. Would make things more even between the players make it more rewarding for them? Is it less rewarding for you if characters are left unstretched?
Does the Moon Druid benefit from magical items while in wildshape?
Is the Moon Druid at relative risk when not in wildshape?
Options might include debuffing the druid or buffing the rest of the party. If practical, making a general change might make it easier for you.
It's a known issue that moon druid is a little more survivable than perhaps it should be. The issue is that there's no interaction between wild-shape and any other abilities. I think the solution will be to houserule an interaction between wildshape and polymorph. To my mind that's the right level of danger--the druid's high wisdom save will prevent the spell from working every time, but a dedicated spellcaster who prepares and has goons to protect them--and perhaps one who is an arcane trickster and so can make use of Magical Ambush--can force the druid out of their wildshape. ...
Yup, and some sort of general house rule or adjustment could be in order.
If they're saving both their wildshape uses for a fight then they deserve to feel powerful in that fight. What you should be doing instead is having more than one combat per Short Rest. You don't need to do this all the time, just often enough that they have to decide whether going nova in that first combat is truly worth it.
Either that or change/cancel any of the various effects of a short rest. Say that Wildshape recharges on a long rest. Hell, it's also possible to nerf the effects of a long rest to PF levels.
Dungeons where doors clang behind you and similar might take effort to formulate without the situations seeming/being contrived.
Do druids in wild shape count as shifters in an alternate form? As a DM I'd say yes, circumstantially. That opens them up to effects that forcably revert shapeshifters into their natural forms.
This is highly contradicting. Magic Circle suggests the druid is a elemental type when wildshaped, but saying possession from a ghost suggests they are a humanoid because ghosts can only possess humanoids.
But, other than that, Spiked makes a good point. Confusion/forcecage could solo the druid out of the fight for a minute or two. But try not to solo them out and slaughter the party. It is a coop game, not team deathmatch
Yes that's right. Possession wouldn't work after the druid used wildshape, though they could be possessed beforehand to keep them from using it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Starfleet Admiral Aaron Satie
Do druids in wild shape count as shifters in an alternate form? As a DM I'd say yes, circumstantially. That opens them up to effects that forcably revert shapeshifters into their natural forms.
I'd say that it depends on the definition that is being applied to "shifter". They are not necessarily of the Mordenkeinen "shifter" race though they certainly shift from form to form.
Eh, I’m not sure homebrewing something that goes “this turns off one of your main powers” is a good call. That could read too much like you’re just singling that player out as a target.
Force the party into a situation were they can not get back to a safe secure area in under three days walk. Then take their mounts. Then take any other form of transportation they have if possible. Do not let them rest. Bad guys will easily sacrifice a few solders just to keep the enemy from resting in safety.
Along the same idea send in some bad guys just to force a wildshape.
Kind of like the last part of what gnome said. When possible, send hard, fast encounters to force the druid to think about when they should use elemental wild shape.
I’m a DM with a 12th level party but every fight, including boss fights, goes the same way for the Moon Druid in the party. They cannot be defeated in their elemental form while the rest of the party may be struggling. Because of the healing ability, it means their elemental ends up having 150 hit points to burn through and half the time they’re taking half damage on top.
I don’t want to force the player https://vshare****/ to have expended their wildshape just for the sake of making an encounter more difficult but I want to challenge them.
There is an intelligent spell caster villain who has been closely watching the party and I want them to have specific abilities that can tackle elementals - what are some abilities I could use?
A fire elemental has +0 Wisdom, meaning they are going to be susceptible to charm attacks and control magic. An intelligent enemy would seek to use the party’s main asset against the party, forcing the elemental to attack friends.
Additionally, you could just throw bigger enemies at the party - ones that might be lethal to others, but concentrate their attacks on the big scary living embodiment of fire. Or use enemies that shut down healing.
An Atropal, for example, would probably be a good enemy for your party - they hit hard, you can’t heal if you’re in their aura, and they will punish the elemental for using close range attacks.
remember tho, when a Druid wildshapes, it keeps the mental stats of the human form. And Druids tend to have high wisdom.
That being said, the overall solution is good Caerwyn, attack the Druid in it's weakest spot. If he dumped intelligence or charisma, find spells that target that save.
Also try to think how your players would react if you put a fire elemental in front of them, try to use their tactics against them. and if nothing else, scour the monster manual for things rarely seen to just throw more at them. toss adds that are resistant to the damage he does and swarm him. stuff like that.
Ah, yep. That’s pre-caffeine posting for ‘ya!
Add in some fire resistant foes in the mix that focus on the druid. Water spells. Anything from dispelling to anti-magic can kick them from that form. Banishment. Other elementals like water. Do their foes have clerics or other casters that can cast fire resistance or such?
Or just add a couple casters with a limited number of spells to focus on the druid, but will likely be used up by the time it is for the rest of the party to deal with them.
There are so many different ways.
Start using traps and ads. Build encounters so they aren't so "one and done." Send the ads in from different sides and in waves. Keep the party off balance and don't let them form a wall behind their meat. Force the druid to control them, not just tank them.
Set the forest on fire (fire elemental, yes?) and make the players deal with the local lordling who wants to know who started 3 forest fires this month in his land. Hire the party to "look into it!"
12th level is pretty high. Remember that that is intended to be enough to roll most common thugs and whoosits. Play into that, make a few dozen fights over a section of the campaign that are almost too easy and, instead of trying to put the druid down, try to let the rest of the party shine more. Then introduce them to Lacky number 7, the cleaner who was brought in specifically to hunt down the group and make them TOUGH. Make them a goal that the party actually needs to grow into, even. Play with the party's expectations.
Boost the Main Mob's health to ridiculous levels and keep sending the ads in in waves or give it a legendary action every 3-5 turns to summon more. Maybe even make the encounter arguably unwinnable, super-tank or no, and force them to retreat (give them an obvious WAY to retreat, like jumping into a quick moving river in an underground cavern.) Mcguffin quest time! Gotta get the thing so we can defeat the guy to make the lady pay us!
It's a known issue that moon druid is a little more survivable than perhaps it should be. The issue is that there's no interaction between wild-shape and any other abilities. I think the solution will be to houserule an interaction between wildshape and polymorph. To my mind that's the right level of danger--the druid's high wisdom save will prevent the spell from working every time, but a dedicated spellcaster who prepares and has goons to protect them--and perhaps one who is an arcane trickster and so can make use of Magical Ambush--can force the druid out of their wildshape.
*edit* also seconding anything with an aura. I've got a bare-knuckle rune knight fighter who can tear apart anything if given a few good rounds, but two shield guardians with flame shields did the trick on one notable occasion.
Magic circle, Banishment, and Forcecage come to mind. Umber hulk confusion would work - an item or special ability that mimics that effect would be a great counter. The villain has a ghost ally that can possesses the druid. Basically CHA saves are going to be the biggest weakness, other than the opposite element of course.
“With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Starfleet Admiral Aaron SatieThis is highly contradicting. Magic Circle suggests the druid is a elemental type when wildshaped, but saying possession from a ghost suggests they are a humanoid because ghosts can only possess humanoids.
But, other than that, Spiked makes a good point. Confusion/forcecage could solo the druid out of the fight for a minute or two. But try not to solo them out and slaughter the party. It is a coop game, not team deathmatch
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
If they're saving both their wildshape uses for a fight then they deserve to feel powerful in that fight. What you should be doing instead is having more than one combat per Short Rest. You don't need to do this all the time, just often enough that they have to decide whether going nova in that first combat is truly worth it.
The standard advice is to talk to the player/s individually or collectively. They might have their own ideas. Would make things more even between the players make it more rewarding for them? Is it less rewarding for you if characters are left unstretched?
Does the Moon Druid benefit from magical items while in wildshape?
Is the Moon Druid at relative risk when not in wildshape?
Options might include debuffing the druid or buffing the rest of the party. If practical, making a general change might make it easier for you.
Yup, and some sort of general house rule or adjustment could be in order.
Either that or change/cancel any of the various effects of a short rest. Say that Wildshape recharges on a long rest. Hell, it's also possible to nerf the effects of a long rest to PF levels.
Dungeons where doors clang behind you and similar might take effort to formulate without the situations seeming/being contrived.
Do druids in wild shape count as shifters in an alternate form? As a DM I'd say yes, circumstantially. That opens them up to effects that forcably revert shapeshifters into their natural forms.
That would in term be a house ruling as Mr.Crawford as already discussed effects such as moonbeam on druids
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
Yes that's right. Possession wouldn't work after the druid used wildshape, though they could be possessed beforehand to keep them from using it.
“With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Starfleet Admiral Aaron SatieI'd say that it depends on the definition that is being applied to "shifter". They are not necessarily of the Mordenkeinen "shifter" race though they certainly shift from form to form.
Sure. Then make a homebrew power that cuts the druid off from the primal spirits. That's narratively kinda fun.
Eh, I’m not sure homebrewing something that goes “this turns off one of your main powers” is a good call. That could read too much like you’re just singling that player out as a target.
Force the party into a situation were they can not get back to a safe secure area in under three days walk.
Then take their mounts. Then take any other form of transportation they have if possible.
Do not let them rest. Bad guys will easily sacrifice a few solders just to keep the enemy from resting in safety.
Along the same idea send in some bad guys just to force a wildshape.
Kind of like the last part of what gnome said. When possible, send hard, fast encounters to force the druid to think about when they should use elemental wild shape.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian