So, as was pointed out, in a recent strange question, I asked about two different things in one poll, which made it slightly more confusing.
So, I am redoing the poll, and this one is about the Character Ethos.
So, to the poll.
I parsed and clarified the general question as a whole, to make it more narrowly tailored, and less about the design ethos of the game (which still colors this, but isn't an overt focus).
While I acknowledge there are likely other ways to do so, I am also keeping is confined to these four general approaches, with the primary two drivers being either the Design Goal of the Player (Modern) or the Course of Adventure (Traditional) and how they deal with Magical Items.
Features & Feats are the assorted special abilities of the classes and Feats, and does include concepts like multiclassing (the infamous dip). In the TSR days, those Features, Feats, and Ability Score Increases mostly came from magical Items. You got what you rolled, and that was pretty much all you got. You want to be stronger as a Fighter, you needed a girdle of giant strength or a manual of bodybuilding (I forget the actual name). As a Wizard, if you wanted to change your spells or be able to cast more, you needed magic items.
Some folks would pick a class that fit what they rolled, and then let their character grow into a powerful being based on what they came across, what they found, and those things determined the shape and form of their character. If you wanted to create a character from other media, you always had to have jut the right magical item, and if you wanted to make the ideal power fantasy, you had to have the right magical item.
You can do that without magical items today. Hell, honestly, you aren't even really limited by the Class -- as the persistent question of "can you multi-subclass" shows, some folks would like that.
So, still just me randomly musing and throwing my shower and bath thoughts out there -- pardon the water stains.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I often start out with a general idea of what path I want my character to take then make adjustment based on what happens during the campaign. I make those choices based on character experiences or pivotal events, magic items are never a factor.
As I said before, I prefer to let players author their characters as much as they can, and I often find that when you let them do that, they let the adventure influence their choices all on their own.
for what it's worth: I try to start with my own design goal and imagined character arc. Because I also enjoy some mechanical optimization, that usually involves some planning for what features and multiclass options and feats I'll take. The campaign does what it does and often nudges/redirects those plans. Magic items never even enter the conversation. They happen or they don't.
Given the responses in the thread, it feels like the poll is missing some important options. Why are there no options that include some planning and some organic development?
As others have said, my answer would be "It is the determined by the interaction of your character's goals with the course of the adventure. Magic items come into this by way of being part of the course of the adventure. They may be an important part or incidental, depending on the item(s) and the all other factors."
Like others have said I usually start with an idea and more importantly, what I want the character's personality to be and then often let the interaction between events and personality dictate my character's progression and choices.
For example, I started out with a bard who was going to be the guy that stands in the back, cheers his allies, avoids combat if possible, heals and buffs the party, and sings songs about his companion's epic feats. But when it became clear that his companions were...not very bold at times, he realized that HE needed to start taking more risks, do epic things and tell his own stories. After nearly dying at Level 3 he picked up the Defensive Duelist Feat. He learned several spells that do thunder or lightning damage and started calling himself the "Thunderbard". Now at Level 8 he's coming a little bit full circle. Others in the party have more damage-causing capabilities (he's no slouch mind you - with things like phantasmal killer or call lightning or an upcast dissonant whispers - just a bit more limited) and he's the only healer in the party healing word and cure wounds he's learned mass healing word. Magic items he's gotten, like a Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection and +1 Rapier have certainly helped, but were just bonus.
"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
as a forever DM, I don't get this option often. But I tend to make a concept, play around with a what if idea at level 20, but usually will change the build based on items and story as they come along.
Sadly the amount of times I actually get to play vs how often I DM it's become a fantasy of mine to actually play.
as a forever DM, I don't get this option often. But I tend to make a concept, play around with a what if idea at level 20, but usually will change the build based on items and story as they come along.
Sadly the amount of times I actually get to play vs how often I DM it's become a fantasy of mine to actually play.
Know this feeling, too.... The campaign I am in is multi-DM, but I do 90% of the DMing, so I can at least have my pc's in NPC modes on occasion when I am running
I went with the second one, magic items shape choices, largely because that’s happened to me. Made a character, gave him a warhammer as a weapon with plans to take the crusher feat. DM gave the party a magic longsword, and I was the only one who could or would use it. So, now crusher is a useless choice (luckily, I got the sword before I took the feat).
But while that’s my reality, my preferred method is the first one, where items are a bonus, and the adventure dictates choices. I’ve had characters where I might have thought and planned they’d go one way. But then they had, for example, a religious awakening and decided to take magic initiate cleric to reflect that. (Also, the party needed more healing, so two birds.)
I voted for "Your design goal determines how your PC grows, what features & feats you take, magic items are a bonus."
I feel as though items #1 and #2 are less viable over long campaigns. Maybe is small module this can work; but overall, I feel that 5e doesn't allow for a character to easily reinvent themselves if the campaign's direction shifts over time. For a simple example; the Bard and Sorcerer classes are limited in how they can adjust their spell selections. So a campaign may start off in an urban environment dealing with a mystery, a heist, murder, conspiracy to overthrow a political force, and highly organized criminal organizations. So as the campaign progresses, selecting spells to help with interrogation, sleuthing, and non-lethal solutions would be beneficial. But these decisions are based on past events; now what happens when the party discovers a clue that leads them through the Underdark and to a hidden citadel where a Lich instructs them on how to teleport to the realm of an Astral Dragon to obtain an artifact so that they can return home and defeat Orcus? Now these classes may be saddled with a bunch of spells that become less and less effective; maybe even so far as to the player just dumping the character and starting a new. I admit the example was hyperbolic, but the point for my concern is still valid in that as a player you do no know where the adventure is going but only where the adventure has been. Unless if I have assurances how the campaign is being bounded, I feel there are too many risks building a character to reflect adventure.
Instead, I look at how the character will support their party, their strategies for engaging in encounters, and to build on their attributes. This enables the character to have impact but leave the ability to adapt to flow of the adventure. I plan out the growth the of character but will reevaluate at different stages in the campaign's progression. Elements like the make up of the party and strategies can influence where I invest feature and feat progression with the character.
Regarding magical items; I don't place too much stock in them. First, the three (3) atunement limitation does a good job in capping character's growth. Then there are the factors of the GM having the final say on what items are available and that items can be "lost" based on campaign events. All of this leads to an unstable and undependable design of the character. I tend to build a separate strategy when it comes to magical items and try not to be overly dependent on them.
I feel like "design goals" and "course of adventure" are not all that distinct. In general, when I create a character, I have a core concept of who that character is and what their goals are. This concept will likely evolve as the game continues... but this simply isn't a game system where you can suddenly decide to take your character on a radically different path, so the odds are that the high level character will be pretty similar in abilities to what I originally expected when the game started (personality is far more flexible).
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So, as was pointed out, in a recent strange question, I asked about two different things in one poll, which made it slightly more confusing.
So, I am redoing the poll, and this one is about the Character Ethos.
So, to the poll.
I parsed and clarified the general question as a whole, to make it more narrowly tailored, and less about the design ethos of the game (which still colors this, but isn't an overt focus).
While I acknowledge there are likely other ways to do so, I am also keeping is confined to these four general approaches, with the primary two drivers being either the Design Goal of the Player (Modern) or the Course of Adventure (Traditional) and how they deal with Magical Items.
Features & Feats are the assorted special abilities of the classes and Feats, and does include concepts like multiclassing (the infamous dip). In the TSR days, those Features, Feats, and Ability Score Increases mostly came from magical Items. You got what you rolled, and that was pretty much all you got. You want to be stronger as a Fighter, you needed a girdle of giant strength or a manual of bodybuilding (I forget the actual name). As a Wizard, if you wanted to change your spells or be able to cast more, you needed magic items.
Some folks would pick a class that fit what they rolled, and then let their character grow into a powerful being based on what they came across, what they found, and those things determined the shape and form of their character. If you wanted to create a character from other media, you always had to have jut the right magical item, and if you wanted to make the ideal power fantasy, you had to have the right magical item.
You can do that without magical items today. Hell, honestly, you aren't even really limited by the Class -- as the persistent question of "can you multi-subclass" shows, some folks would like that.
So, still just me randomly musing and throwing my shower and bath thoughts out there -- pardon the water stains.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I often start out with a general idea of what path I want my character to take then make adjustment based on what happens during the campaign. I make those choices based on character experiences or pivotal events, magic items are never a factor.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
As I said before, I prefer to let players author their characters as much as they can, and I often find that when you let them do that, they let the adventure influence their choices all on their own.
I don't really understand how the poll is worded.
for what it's worth:
I try to start with my own design goal and imagined character arc.
Because I also enjoy some mechanical optimization, that usually involves some planning for what features and multiclass options and feats I'll take.
The campaign does what it does and often nudges/redirects those plans.
Magic items never even enter the conversation. They happen or they don't.
Given the responses in the thread, it feels like the poll is missing some important options. Why are there no options that include some planning and some organic development?
As others have said, my answer would be "It is the determined by the interaction of your character's goals with the course of the adventure. Magic items come into this by way of being part of the course of the adventure. They may be an important part or incidental, depending on the item(s) and the all other factors."
Like others have said I usually start with an idea and more importantly, what I want the character's personality to be and then often let the interaction between events and personality dictate my character's progression and choices.
For example, I started out with a bard who was going to be the guy that stands in the back, cheers his allies, avoids combat if possible, heals and buffs the party, and sings songs about his companion's epic feats. But when it became clear that his companions were...not very bold at times, he realized that HE needed to start taking more risks, do epic things and tell his own stories. After nearly dying at Level 3 he picked up the Defensive Duelist Feat. He learned several spells that do thunder or lightning damage and started calling himself the "Thunderbard". Now at Level 8 he's coming a little bit full circle. Others in the party have more damage-causing capabilities (he's no slouch mind you - with things like phantasmal killer or call lightning or an upcast dissonant whispers - just a bit more limited) and he's the only healer in the party healing word and cure wounds he's learned mass healing word. Magic items he's gotten, like a Ring of Protection, Cloak of Protection and +1 Rapier have certainly helped, but were just bonus.
"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
as a forever DM, I don't get this option often. But I tend to make a concept, play around with a what if idea at level 20, but usually will change the build based on items and story as they come along.
Sadly the amount of times I actually get to play vs how often I DM it's become a fantasy of mine to actually play.
Know this feeling, too.... The campaign I am in is multi-DM, but I do 90% of the DMing, so I can at least have my pc's in NPC modes on occasion when I am running
I went with the second one, magic items shape choices, largely because that’s happened to me. Made a character, gave him a warhammer as a weapon with plans to take the crusher feat. DM gave the party a magic longsword, and I was the only one who could or would use it. So, now crusher is a useless choice (luckily, I got the sword before I took the feat).
But while that’s my reality, my preferred method is the first one, where items are a bonus, and the adventure dictates choices. I’ve had characters where I might have thought and planned they’d go one way. But then they had, for example, a religious awakening and decided to take magic initiate cleric to reflect that. (Also, the party needed more healing, so two birds.)
I voted for "Your design goal determines how your PC grows, what features & feats you take, magic items are a bonus."
I feel as though items #1 and #2 are less viable over long campaigns. Maybe is small module this can work; but overall, I feel that 5e doesn't allow for a character to easily reinvent themselves if the campaign's direction shifts over time. For a simple example; the Bard and Sorcerer classes are limited in how they can adjust their spell selections. So a campaign may start off in an urban environment dealing with a mystery, a heist, murder, conspiracy to overthrow a political force, and highly organized criminal organizations. So as the campaign progresses, selecting spells to help with interrogation, sleuthing, and non-lethal solutions would be beneficial. But these decisions are based on past events; now what happens when the party discovers a clue that leads them through the Underdark and to a hidden citadel where a Lich instructs them on how to teleport to the realm of an Astral Dragon to obtain an artifact so that they can return home and defeat Orcus? Now these classes may be saddled with a bunch of spells that become less and less effective; maybe even so far as to the player just dumping the character and starting a new. I admit the example was hyperbolic, but the point for my concern is still valid in that as a player you do no know where the adventure is going but only where the adventure has been. Unless if I have assurances how the campaign is being bounded, I feel there are too many risks building a character to reflect adventure.
Instead, I look at how the character will support their party, their strategies for engaging in encounters, and to build on their attributes. This enables the character to have impact but leave the ability to adapt to flow of the adventure. I plan out the growth the of character but will reevaluate at different stages in the campaign's progression. Elements like the make up of the party and strategies can influence where I invest feature and feat progression with the character.
Regarding magical items; I don't place too much stock in them. First, the three (3) atunement limitation does a good job in capping character's growth. Then there are the factors of the GM having the final say on what items are available and that items can be "lost" based on campaign events. All of this leads to an unstable and undependable design of the character. I tend to build a separate strategy when it comes to magical items and try not to be overly dependent on them.
I feel like "design goals" and "course of adventure" are not all that distinct. In general, when I create a character, I have a core concept of who that character is and what their goals are. This concept will likely evolve as the game continues... but this simply isn't a game system where you can suddenly decide to take your character on a radically different path, so the odds are that the high level character will be pretty similar in abilities to what I originally expected when the game started (personality is far more flexible).