In a campaign I am running, I am attempting to connect some BBEGs from each of the PCs backgrounds to help connect them all together as a party and to develop a better campaign overall. I have a group of PCs who are trying to stop a certain powerful Lich from obtaining godhood, and a couple other PCs who are after a cult of Devil worshipers who worship Asmodeus.
my question is, would it make sense for a Lich to be working with demons or Devils for some ultimate goal? And if so, what could either side be gaining from an alliance.
Hmmm. I think a lich would know they couldn't trust a demon for anything, so I'm not sure there. Devils are a bit more, well, above-board. (I mean, they're evil, but they do abide by their word.) Perhaps a lesser devil - maybe Mephistopheles - would agree to a plan if they thought it might give them a chance to depose Asmodeus. But there would be a letter of agreement involved. With incredibly detailed fine print that somehow still leaves enough loopholes to give the devil plausible deniability in case the plan fails.
The Lich would likely think it had something to gain from the alliance and the confidence to believe that it could keep itself from getting stuck in some legal loophole or even believe it could create its own legal loophole with the Devil. I think the Devil would believe the same. If the Devil approached the Lich with a proposal, the Lich might want to be certain that the Devil has no interest in swindling the Lich with tricky wordplay with using the trouble-makers as leverage. If the Lich approached the Devil, I think that the Devil will need some serious convincing and incentives to work together against the party. I think that few Devils would be willing to approach others with a deal except in extreme cases as that would appear too humbling. So, I think the Lich would need to make the first move in the exchange and be willing to offer something seriously worthwhile.
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Short answer: Yes, it is not unbelievable for a lich to make a deal with a devil. Why is up to the DM. Maybe a Wizard made a deal with a devil to become a lich.
Such a deal would be depend entirely on the context. Both parties are smart enough to know that the other is likely to betray them down the line. Most likely, whatever deal they have struck is related to the thing they both want, but only one of them can have.
To give a little more context, this particular Lich is seeking to ascend to godhood, much like the Lich Vecna in forgotten realms. Also, the devil worshipping cult is a modified version of the Ashmadai is Neverwinter
This might not work depending on what you've written beforehand... but what if the Lich sold his soul to a powerful Devil before becoming Undead? That could be part of his motivation for Godhood... he knows that whenever he properly dies his soul will be taken by the devil. Maybe even becoming a Lich in the first place was part of an attempt to circumvent the deal, but he knows its still not enough. So the Devil is still allied with him because of the original deal, but is also subtly trying to sabotage him, and vice versa. So it could introduce an interesting dilemma for the team... where they know they could get help from one of the evil forces against the other, but the compromises to their own goals might be too great. But they also know if they don't ally with one then the two of them will ally together against the party.
Yes, absolutely. First, in many fictions, liches depend on souls to maintain their powers. Demiliches are the result of a lich that loses their powers (except in 3e in which they're a more powerful form). Since devils maintain the largest soul market in the multiverse, one could see a lich making plenty of bargains.
To give a little more context, this particular Lich is seeking to ascend to godhood, much like the Lich Vecna in forgotten realms. Also, the devil worshipping cult is a modified version of the Ashmadai is Neverwinter
It's entirely reasonable for a lich to make deals with devils, most likely for souls, either buying or selling. That said, if the lich is powerful enough that ascencion is a reasonable possibility, Asmodeus will probably not be too keen on helping out a potential threat. Other devils may decide to ally with the lich, but doing so is a serious risk for them, both because of what might happen if their boss finds out and because if they succeed, they'll need to arrange to come out on top of any fight between the lich and Asmodeus.
Plenty of people strike deals with devils knowing full well it's a terrible idea that will almost certainly blow up in their face... but they still do it. A lich would only need what anyone in that situation would need: A good enough reason.
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In a campaign I am running, I am attempting to connect some BBEGs from each of the PCs backgrounds to help connect them all together as a party and to develop a better campaign overall. I have a group of PCs who are trying to stop a certain powerful Lich from obtaining godhood, and a couple other PCs who are after a cult of Devil worshipers who worship Asmodeus.
my question is, would it make sense for a Lich to be working with demons or Devils for some ultimate goal? And if so, what could either side be gaining from an alliance.
thanks in advance!
Hmmm. I think a lich would know they couldn't trust a demon for anything, so I'm not sure there. Devils are a bit more, well, above-board. (I mean, they're evil, but they do abide by their word.) Perhaps a lesser devil - maybe Mephistopheles - would agree to a plan if they thought it might give them a chance to depose Asmodeus. But there would be a letter of agreement involved. With incredibly detailed fine print that somehow still leaves enough loopholes to give the devil plausible deniability in case the plan fails.
I'm with Maestrino on this.
The Lich would likely think it had something to gain from the alliance and the confidence to believe that it could keep itself from getting stuck in some legal loophole or even believe it could create its own legal loophole with the Devil. I think the Devil would believe the same. If the Devil approached the Lich with a proposal, the Lich might want to be certain that the Devil has no interest in swindling the Lich with tricky wordplay with using the trouble-makers as leverage. If the Lich approached the Devil, I think that the Devil will need some serious convincing and incentives to work together against the party. I think that few Devils would be willing to approach others with a deal except in extreme cases as that would appear too humbling. So, I think the Lich would need to make the first move in the exchange and be willing to offer something seriously worthwhile.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Short answer: Yes, it is not unbelievable for a lich to make a deal with a devil. Why is up to the DM. Maybe a Wizard made a deal with a devil to become a lich.
Such a deal would be depend entirely on the context. Both parties are smart enough to know that the other is likely to betray them down the line. Most likely, whatever deal they have struck is related to the thing they both want, but only one of them can have.
It's not a transaction based on trust.
To give a little more context, this particular Lich is seeking to ascend to godhood, much like the Lich Vecna in forgotten realms. Also, the devil worshipping cult is a modified version of the Ashmadai is Neverwinter
This might not work depending on what you've written beforehand... but what if the Lich sold his soul to a powerful Devil before becoming Undead? That could be part of his motivation for Godhood... he knows that whenever he properly dies his soul will be taken by the devil. Maybe even becoming a Lich in the first place was part of an attempt to circumvent the deal, but he knows its still not enough. So the Devil is still allied with him because of the original deal, but is also subtly trying to sabotage him, and vice versa. So it could introduce an interesting dilemma for the team... where they know they could get help from one of the evil forces against the other, but the compromises to their own goals might be too great. But they also know if they don't ally with one then the two of them will ally together against the party.
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Yes, absolutely. First, in many fictions, liches depend on souls to maintain their powers. Demiliches are the result of a lich that loses their powers (except in 3e in which they're a more powerful form). Since devils maintain the largest soul market in the multiverse, one could see a lich making plenty of bargains.
It's entirely reasonable for a lich to make deals with devils, most likely for souls, either buying or selling. That said, if the lich is powerful enough that ascencion is a reasonable possibility, Asmodeus will probably not be too keen on helping out a potential threat. Other devils may decide to ally with the lich, but doing so is a serious risk for them, both because of what might happen if their boss finds out and because if they succeed, they'll need to arrange to come out on top of any fight between the lich and Asmodeus.
Plenty of people strike deals with devils knowing full well it's a terrible idea that will almost certainly blow up in their face... but they still do it. A lich would only need what anyone in that situation would need: A good enough reason.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."