I read the "reaction" and "preparing an action" part of the PHB and realized it allows you to store your action as a reaction and use it in basically any scenario. Firstly, what a valid trigger for a reaction could be is beyond me. Is "when I feel like it" not a valid reaction trigger? Or "when my enemy makes an attack of opportunity" like can you react to reactions with an action? (I know you can because of counterspell, it just seems odd)?
My example of this is: you are in a first-blood duel with an enemy who has polearm master. You know that approaching them will trigger an AOO even though your weapon has reach, so you get crafty. You prepare an attack using the trigger "when my enemy uses an attack of opportunity" and walk into them. Your movement triggers their attack, their attack triggers your attack. The only way to stop this would be to have the enemy not attack but if they're trying to win a duel that seems very foolish and I don't want to disparage creative use of the action economy.
Second example: rogue is hasted. They prepare their action to attack with the trigger "at the beginning of ____'s turn", attack with their hasted action for sneak attack, and then attack again on someone else's turn for a second sneak attack.
Is there a one-size-fits-all rule change I can apply to solve this strange interaction without just saying "no" to people doing things that are technically allowed by the rules?
In the first example, I'm pretty sure the OP was setting the trigger as: When the enemy attempts to attack me as I approach.
Indicating that he believes that his readied action will interrupt the attempted attack, allowing him to strike first and only afterwards, being hit himself. Relying on the wording of Reactions in the Basic Rules.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
I think this clarification from the DMG will help.
Adjudicating Reaction Timing
Typical combatants rely on the opportunity attack and the Ready action for most of their reactions in a fight. Various spells and features give a creature more reaction options, and sometimes the timing of a reaction can be difficult to adjudicate. Use this rule of thumb: follow whatever timing is specified in the reaction’s description. For example, the opportunity attack and the shield spell are clear about the fact that they can interrupt their triggers. If a reaction has no timing specified, or the timing is unclear, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes, as in the Ready action.
I really don't see the point of the first scenario.
Example 1: Ready an action to attack when attacked. Move towards foe, trigger an AoO and suffer an attack. Then use reaction to trigger ready action, and attack.
Example 2: Move towards foe, trigger an AoO and suffer an attack. Use attack action and attack. Still have a reaction, in case the NPC tries to back away.
In example 1, you just waste a reaction.
As for the second scenario with the rogue... as a DM you can meta and defeat this by backing off and using your own held action. As someone has said above, triggers have to be something the character can perceive. Instead of the player saying, "on the enemy's turn", he should be saying, "when the enemy attacks".
To defeat this, the DM simply holds his own attack with a "when the PC attacks" which doesn't trigger the PC's held action, wasting it. Then when the PC tries to do the same 'trick' to get double sneak attack, as soon as the hasted attack hits, the NPC attacks with the held action, which triggers the PC held action, which doesn't get to sneak attack again because it's still the same turn for the PC.
Note: I've always been under the impression that taking the held action is the last thing you do on your turn. IE: You have to use up your free action, movement and bonus action (and in the case of the hasted rogue, the hasted attack action), THEN you can finish with Ready Action.
BUT, I can't find any actual RAW rule that defines this, so I guess I just never met or saw ready action used in the way the OP describes. The point of this post is, if you find your players are being cheezy with the ready action, then just houserule that Ready Action happens at the end.
In the first example, I'm pretty sure the OP was setting the trigger as: When the enemy attempts to attack me as I approach.
Which is fine and is exactly as I suggested it...
Indicating that he believes that his readied action will interrupt the attempted attack, allowing him to strike first and only afterwards, being hit himself. Relying on the wording of Reactions in the Basic Rules.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
I think this clarification from the DMG will help.
Adjudicating Reaction Timing
Typical combatants rely on the opportunity attack and the Ready action for most of their reactions in a fight. Various spells and features give a creature more reaction options, and sometimes the timing of a reaction can be difficult to adjudicate. Use this rule of thumb: follow whatever timing is specified in the reaction’s description. For example, the opportunity attack and the shield spell are clear about the fact that they can interrupt their triggers. If a reaction has no timing specified, or the timing is unclear, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes, as in the Ready action.
Actually, I'm pretty certain that this, RAW is not correct. You are right about reaction, but specific trumps general, and although in general some reactions can interrupt their trigger (shield, AoO, meaning by the way that triggers can be interrupted and not resumed for example, but this is another topic), the ready action is specific: "When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger." It is exactly as clear in the text that you have shown, I have highlighted it in red.
So the attack from the approaching guy would occur after the attack targeting him if you use the trigger that we both suggested. Of course, you could choose another trigger, but it has to be perceivable by the character. I can't find one but maybe you can ?
The reason I posted both block quotes was to differentiate how normal Reactions work VS a Ready action. We are in agreement on how this works Lyxen if you had any doubts, I was just pointing out an assumption of why the OP might have had another point of view.
Note: I've always been under the impression that taking the held action is the last thing you do on your turn. IE: You have to use up your free action, movement and bonus action (and in the case of the hasted rogue, the hasted attack action), THEN you can finish with Ready Action.
BUT, I can't find any actual RAW rule that defines this, so I guess I just never met or saw ready action used in the way the OP describes. The point of this post is, if you find your players are being cheezy with the ready action, then just houserule that Ready Action happens at the end.
I would agree about the use of Ready, but I also agree that there is no word of this in RAW. That being said, I can't think of a scenario in which this actually matters if the ready action is played properly with a perceivable circumstance. But if that develops and poses problem, it is a simple enough house rule indeed.
The scenario where a hasted rogue uses it to get 2 sneak attacks in a round. The hasted attack is used to trigger the first sneak attack, then the held action used to trigger a second sneak attack on a different turn.
Yes I was under the impression all reactions preempted their triggers, "action stack" is in the title and references MTG where instants preempt instants which were cast before them, and resolve in reverse order of casting, which is why counterspell works before the spell it is countering (in magic: the gathering) and why you can use toughness-buffing instants to counteract damage-dealing instants targeting your creatures. I was under the impression that DnD had a similarly rigid structure where instants always preempt their triggers.
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I read the "reaction" and "preparing an action" part of the PHB and realized it allows you to store your action as a reaction and use it in basically any scenario. Firstly, what a valid trigger for a reaction could be is beyond me. Is "when I feel like it" not a valid reaction trigger? Or "when my enemy makes an attack of opportunity" like can you react to reactions with an action? (I know you can because of counterspell, it just seems odd)?
My example of this is: you are in a first-blood duel with an enemy who has polearm master. You know that approaching them will trigger an AOO even though your weapon has reach, so you get crafty. You prepare an attack using the trigger "when my enemy uses an attack of opportunity" and walk into them. Your movement triggers their attack, their attack triggers your attack. The only way to stop this would be to have the enemy not attack but if they're trying to win a duel that seems very foolish and I don't want to disparage creative use of the action economy.
Second example: rogue is hasted. They prepare their action to attack with the trigger "at the beginning of ____'s turn", attack with their hasted action for sneak attack, and then attack again on someone else's turn for a second sneak attack.
Is there a one-size-fits-all rule change I can apply to solve this strange interaction without just saying "no" to people doing things that are technically allowed by the rules?
In the first example, I'm pretty sure the OP was setting the trigger as: When the enemy attempts to attack me as I approach.
Indicating that he believes that his readied action will interrupt the attempted attack, allowing him to strike first and only afterwards, being hit himself. Relying on the wording of Reactions in the Basic Rules.
I think this clarification from the DMG will help.
I really don't see the point of the first scenario.
Example 1: Ready an action to attack when attacked. Move towards foe, trigger an AoO and suffer an attack. Then use reaction to trigger ready action, and attack.
Example 2: Move towards foe, trigger an AoO and suffer an attack. Use attack action and attack. Still have a reaction, in case the NPC tries to back away.
In example 1, you just waste a reaction.
As for the second scenario with the rogue... as a DM you can meta and defeat this by backing off and using your own held action. As someone has said above, triggers have to be something the character can perceive. Instead of the player saying, "on the enemy's turn", he should be saying, "when the enemy attacks".
To defeat this, the DM simply holds his own attack with a "when the PC attacks" which doesn't trigger the PC's held action, wasting it. Then when the PC tries to do the same 'trick' to get double sneak attack, as soon as the hasted attack hits, the NPC attacks with the held action, which triggers the PC held action, which doesn't get to sneak attack again because it's still the same turn for the PC.
Note: I've always been under the impression that taking the held action is the last thing you do on your turn. IE: You have to use up your free action, movement and bonus action (and in the case of the hasted rogue, the hasted attack action), THEN you can finish with Ready Action.
BUT, I can't find any actual RAW rule that defines this, so I guess I just never met or saw ready action used in the way the OP describes. The point of this post is, if you find your players are being cheezy with the ready action, then just houserule that Ready Action happens at the end.
The reason I posted both block quotes was to differentiate how normal Reactions work VS a Ready action. We are in agreement on how this works Lyxen if you had any doubts, I was just pointing out an assumption of why the OP might have had another point of view.
The scenario where a hasted rogue uses it to get 2 sneak attacks in a round. The hasted attack is used to trigger the first sneak attack, then the held action used to trigger a second sneak attack on a different turn.
Yes I was under the impression all reactions preempted their triggers, "action stack" is in the title and references MTG where instants preempt instants which were cast before them, and resolve in reverse order of casting, which is why counterspell works before the spell it is countering (in magic: the gathering) and why you can use toughness-buffing instants to counteract damage-dealing instants targeting your creatures. I was under the impression that DnD had a similarly rigid structure where instants always preempt their triggers.