For me, the concept that some low level spell caster can get lucky and wreck the spell of some far more powerful caster was galling.
Under the existing rules, using a 3rd level spell, assuming a +7 due to Int Bonus and Prof, the chances of countering or dispelling a 9th level spell (DC 19) is 45% for a 5th - 8th level char.
And it is ridiculous to suggest that some 6th level caster can Dispel some ancient magical effect cast by the most powerful casters of all time. With Arcane Recovery, a caster can have 3 Dispel Magic's in a day. It does not take long for a low level caster to blow through even the most power.
So I built house rules like this:
The calculation for the DC of the spell to be Countered or Dispelled is now 15 + (Spell Slot Level the targeted spell was cast at - Spell Slot Level CounterSpell/Dispel Magic is cast at), instead of the traditional 10 + spell slot level targeted spell was cast at.
The traditional rule of matching the spell-slot level of the target spell was cast to automatically be successful remains unchanged, except for "permanent spells" as described below. An attempt to Dispel Magic on a "permanent magical effect" (eg. Glyph of Warding, Hallow, Teleportation Circle with a year's worth of casting) has an additional +5 added to the DC. Bottom line, it will be slightly tougher to Dispel or Counter Magic, but upcasting Dispell Magic or Counterspell against a spell has a significant impact. In some cases, depending on the situation, a player may be able to suppress or weaken a "permanent effect", up to the DM Fiat.
So now, if a player uses a higher level spell slot, which inherently means they are a higher level caster, they have an improved chance of Dispelling/ Countering a spell.
Now, when the 5th level char uses Counterspell to try to counter the 9th level spell, the DC is 21, not 19. Still quite possible. Trying to dispel some "permanent" spell as described above would be DC 26. Still not impossible for a 5th level char, but a lot harder than before. For say, a 9th level char (assume a +9 to rolls), using a 5th level spell slot would create a DC 24, which means a 15 or higher on the unmodified roll, which is still a really good shot to dispel 9th level permanent magic, and only a 10 or higher to dispel/counter "immediate" 9th level magic.
High level chars will find it still very easy to dispel or counter a spell.
In my game, to Counterspell, not ever. To Dispel a "permanent effect", quite often. And this model works on lower level spells. It works on all spell levels.
Just saying, the only classes that get to add any proficiency to Dispel Magic/Counterspell checks are Abjuration Wizards, who specialize in those spells specifically, and Bard, due to Jack of All Trades. Everyone else is rolling with their basic spellcasting ability, which is going to be either +3 or +4 at level 5, so a 25-30% chance based on stat allocation. Still pretty high. Another option could be having dispel magic/counterspell difficultly be (8+(spell level*1.5)) rounded up if you really want to change things to make permanent effects higher, or for a much simpler option just say you have disadvantage to dispel permanent effects instead of changing the formula.
Why not just stick with RAW that clearly says that only Abjuration Wizards get to add their proficiency? Seems like you're going through a bunch of extra steps for no real reason.
Just saying, the only classes that get to add any proficiency to Dispel Magic/Counterspell checks are Abjuration Wizards, who specialize in those spells specifically, and Bard, due to Jack of All Trades. Everyone else is rolling with their basic spellcasting ability, which is going to be either +3 or +4 at level 5, so a 25-30% chance based on stat allocation. Still pretty high. Another option could be having dispel magic/counterspell difficultly be (8+(spell level*1.5)) rounded up if you really want to change things to make permanent effects higher, or for a much simpler option just say you have disadvantage to dispel permanent effects instead of changing the formula.
You know, I have been playing this wrong for years. I crafted this with another DM at out gaming cafe, and neither of us clued in that in general, the proficiency NOT being added. Thank you. That does change the equation.
My general thrust that countering and dispelling (c/d) a spell is too easy. That has not changed. But the base DC, yes, I think I will have to alter that. And I still believe that a caster should be rewarded for using a higher level spell slot to c/d a spell. I will have to rethink this.
Under existing rules:
5th-7th level caster (+4 spell casting ability), c/d a 4th level spell = DC 14 = 10 or better on the roll = 55% of the time. Same casters c/d against a 5th level spell = 50%. And the graph is odd. It is 100% against 3rd and lower, then jumps to 55%, then moves in some interesting ways when one compares spell casting ability to target spell level.
I like the 1E/2E method which compared the casters level with that of the opponents level.
So the base chance of dispel magic working was 50%; adjusted up or down by 5% times the difference in the spellcasters level.
So for example, if a 6th level caster tried to dispel the spell of an 14th level caster, the chance would be 10%. (50% - (14-6)*.05 )
That definitely has merit, but I would like to reward a player that decides to use a higher level spell slot to counter/dispel a target spell. This adds another factor into the player having to do resource management. Player has to decide "Should I burn a 3rd, 4th, or higher spell slot to counter what is coming at me? Did that caster use a higher level spell slot to upcast that lower level spell? What should I do?"
Oh, BTW, if one plays using the XGTE rules on page 85, a single caster cannot both recognize and then to decide to c/d a target spell on the same turn, as page 85 of the XGTE clearly states that identifying a spell is a Reaction.
I like the 1E/2E method which compared the casters level with that of the opponents level.
So the base chance of dispel magic working was 50%; adjusted up or down by 5% times the difference in the spellcasters level.
So for example, if a 6th level caster tried to dispel the spell of an 14th level caster, the chance would be 10%. (50% - (14-6)*.05 )
That definitely has merit, but I would like to reward a player that decides to use a higher level spell slot to counter/dispel a target spell. This adds another factor into the player having to do resource management. Player has to decide "Should I burn a 3rd, 4th, or higher spell slot to counter what is coming at me? Did that caster use a higher level spell slot to upcast that lower level spell? What should I do?"
Yes, I agree that that is important. So, what I would do is adjust the chance by 5% for every level that the wizard up casts the spell (To a maximum of 15%, or 3 spell slot levels).
dispel magic do not count the proficiency bonus. dispel magic and counter spell only takes your ability score bonus. nothing else.
so a wizard with counterspell, with 20 intelligence... needs a 14 on the dice to get rid of a 9th level spell. now i will say that you still right that its a big thing... but wouldn't it be better to just say that dispel magic cannot dispel anything above its own level ? meaning, there is either no roll, or its dispelled...
what i do really is use XGTE. i use reaction to know what spell he is casting. but a bard knows when bard spells are cast if its on his spell list or if he has seen the spell before. now if one player makes a check to see if they know then use free action to tell the sorcer counter that. i would accept it cause its 2 reactions gone for 1 spell. but more often for now... i have said that legendary spells cannot be countered. level 8 and 9 are considered legendary by magic item rulings. dispel magic needs a spell slot equal to.
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dispel magic do not count the proficiency bonus. dispel magic and counter spell only takes your ability score bonus. nothing else.
so a wizard with counterspell, with 20 intelligence... needs a 14 on the dice to get rid of a 9th level spell. now i will say that you still right that its a big thing... but wouldn't it be better to just say that dispel magic cannot dispel anything above its own level ? meaning, there is either no roll, or its dispelled...
what i do really is use XGTE. i use reaction to know what spell he is casting. but a bard knows when bard spells are cast if its on his spell list or if he has seen the spell before. now if one player makes a check to see if they know then use free action to tell the sorcer counter that. i would accept it cause its 2 reactions gone for 1 spell. but more often for now... i have said that legendary spells cannot be countered. level 8 and 9 are considered legendary by magic item rulings. dispel magic needs a spell slot equal to.
like many people, i don'T read tons of post before posting... as simple as that.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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For me, the concept that some low level spell caster can get lucky and wreck the spell of some far more powerful caster was galling.
Under the existing rules, using a 3rd level spell, assuming a +7 due to Int Bonus and Prof, the chances of countering or dispelling a 9th level spell (DC 19) is 45% for a 5th - 8th level char.
And it is ridiculous to suggest that some 6th level caster can Dispel some ancient magical effect cast by the most powerful casters of all time. With Arcane Recovery, a caster can have 3 Dispel Magic's in a day. It does not take long for a low level caster to blow through even the most power.
So I built house rules like this:
The calculation for the DC of the spell to be Countered or Dispelled is now 15 + (Spell Slot Level the targeted spell was cast at - Spell Slot Level CounterSpell/Dispel Magic is cast at), instead of the traditional 10 + spell slot level targeted spell was cast at.
The traditional rule of matching the spell-slot level of the target spell was cast to automatically be successful remains unchanged, except for "permanent spells" as described below.
An attempt to Dispel Magic on a "permanent magical effect" (eg. Glyph of Warding, Hallow, Teleportation Circle with a year's worth of casting) has an additional +5 added to the DC.
Bottom line, it will be slightly tougher to Dispel or Counter Magic, but upcasting Dispell Magic or Counterspell against a spell has a significant impact. In some cases, depending on the situation, a player may be able to suppress or weaken a "permanent effect", up to the DM Fiat.
So now, if a player uses a higher level spell slot, which inherently means they are a higher level caster, they have an improved chance of Dispelling/ Countering a spell.
Now, when the 5th level char uses Counterspell to try to counter the 9th level spell, the DC is 21, not 19. Still quite possible. Trying to dispel some "permanent" spell as described above would be DC 26. Still not impossible for a 5th level char, but a lot harder than before. For say, a 9th level char (assume a +9 to rolls), using a 5th level spell slot would create a DC 24, which means a 15 or higher on the unmodified roll, which is still a really good shot to dispel 9th level permanent magic, and only a 10 or higher to dispel/counter "immediate" 9th level magic.
High level chars will find it still very easy to dispel or counter a spell.
How often are 5th - 8th level characters running into 9th level spells?
In my game, to Counterspell, not ever. To Dispel a "permanent effect", quite often. And this model works on lower level spells. It works on all spell levels.
Just saying, the only classes that get to add any proficiency to Dispel Magic/Counterspell checks are Abjuration Wizards, who specialize in those spells specifically, and Bard, due to Jack of All Trades. Everyone else is rolling with their basic spellcasting ability, which is going to be either +3 or +4 at level 5, so a 25-30% chance based on stat allocation. Still pretty high. Another option could be having dispel magic/counterspell difficultly be (8+(spell level*1.5)) rounded up if you really want to change things to make permanent effects higher, or for a much simpler option just say you have disadvantage to dispel permanent effects instead of changing the formula.
Why not just stick with RAW that clearly says that only Abjuration Wizards get to add their proficiency? Seems like you're going through a bunch of extra steps for no real reason.
I like the 1E/2E method which compared the casters level with that of the opponents level.
So the base chance of dispel magic working was 50%; adjusted up or down by 5% times the difference in the spellcasters level.
So for example, if a 6th level caster tried to dispel the spell of an 14th level caster, the chance would be 10%. (50% - (14-6)*.05 )
You know, I have been playing this wrong for years. I crafted this with another DM at out gaming cafe, and neither of us clued in that in general, the proficiency NOT being added. Thank you. That does change the equation.
My general thrust that countering and dispelling (c/d) a spell is too easy. That has not changed. But the base DC, yes, I think I will have to alter that. And I still believe that a caster should be rewarded for using a higher level spell slot to c/d a spell. I will have to rethink this.
Under existing rules:
5th-7th level caster (+4 spell casting ability), c/d a 4th level spell = DC 14 = 10 or better on the roll = 55% of the time. Same casters c/d against a 5th level spell = 50%. And the graph is odd. It is 100% against 3rd and lower, then jumps to 55%, then moves in some interesting ways when one compares spell casting ability to target spell level.
That definitely has merit, but I would like to reward a player that decides to use a higher level spell slot to counter/dispel a target spell. This adds another factor into the player having to do resource management. Player has to decide "Should I burn a 3rd, 4th, or higher spell slot to counter what is coming at me? Did that caster use a higher level spell slot to upcast that lower level spell? What should I do?"
Oh, BTW, if one plays using the XGTE rules on page 85, a single caster cannot both recognize and then to decide to c/d a target spell on the same turn, as page 85 of the XGTE clearly states that identifying a spell is a Reaction.
Yes, I agree that that is important. So, what I would do is adjust the chance by 5% for every level that the wizard up casts the spell (To a maximum of 15%, or 3 spell slot levels).
Except your calculation is incorrect !
dispel magic do not count the proficiency bonus.
dispel magic and counter spell only takes your ability score bonus. nothing else.
so a wizard with counterspell, with 20 intelligence... needs a 14 on the dice to get rid of a 9th level spell.
now i will say that you still right that its a big thing... but wouldn't it be better to just say that dispel magic cannot dispel anything above its own level ? meaning, there is either no roll, or its dispelled...
what i do really is use XGTE. i use reaction to know what spell he is casting. but a bard knows when bard spells are cast if its on his spell list or if he has seen the spell before. now if one player makes a check to see if they know then use free action to tell the sorcer counter that. i would accept it cause its 2 reactions gone for 1 spell. but more often for now... i have said that legendary spells cannot be countered. level 8 and 9 are considered legendary by magic item rulings. dispel magic needs a spell slot equal to.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
wow this was pointed out in post number one
look before you leap.
like many people, i don'T read tons of post before posting...
as simple as that.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)