Shillelagh is the only damage dealing cantrip that doesn't do extra damage at higher levels, making it useless at higher levels. This is because as written a character of another class could get it from multiclassing or Magic Initiate feat and combine the increased damage with other class' features. such as extra attack. Most of the questions I have seen relate to how it interacts with other class features. I propose an alternative version in line with Green Flame Blade. This would be instantaneous. You make a single attack as part of the cantrip. This does 1d8 plus wisdom bonus at first level, increases to 2d8 at 5th level
Shillelagh isn't an actual damage dealing spell, though. It is a buff spell that increases your ability to deal damage.
It is supposed to be used to supplement your ability to deal damage with weapon attacks for enemies who have magical resistances or resistance to non-magical weapons (like a Vampire for example) for every melee attack you can make.
In your example, a creature who has resistance to non-magical weapons could provoke opportunity attacks all day and not worry about the druid hurting it.
Your version couldn't still be a bonus action, because the action economy would be destroyed by the idea of a Polearm Master Fighter who already has 4 attacks a round will now get a 5th attack that is the equivalent of multiple attacks with a d8 weapon. So, you'd have to make it a standard action cast time, but now you're removing the effectiveness of the action economy for the druid. I mean, there are plenty of times where my party's druid has taken his action to do something and then cast Shillelagh before the end of his turn (or before he even enters the room).
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
yeah taking Shillelagh and Magic Stone are the worst choices I ever done for my charcter :\ .... Appsolutely useless
While I'll agree with Magic Stone, I absolutely disagree with Shillelagh being useless.
Look at the other available Druid cantrips: Poison Spray requires Constitution Save. Most undead, fiends, elementals, and constructs (as well as poison-based monsters like green dragons, and some plant creatures) are immune to poison damage. Also, constitution is a fairly high stat for most beasts and warriors, so most of the enemies that have a high AC (the downfall of spells with attack rolls), chances are they are also going to have a high constitution. You're pretty much looking at only using this effectively against enemy spellcasters. Now, its damage IS a d12, so that's a selling point over the d8 of Shillelagh (though I've house ruled it that it's a d10 if used on a quarterstaff and used two-handed, since quarterstaves are versatile weapons), but with so many common creatures being immune to the damage (let alone those resistant to poison damage), I'm less impressed (4d12 at 17th+ level is still only 26 damage, 13 if resistant, 0 if immune)
Produce Flame requires a ranged spell attack, which if done at close range, causes disadvantage on the attack roll. The damage type is fire, which has the highest rate of of damage reduction of the damage types (and most fiends and many dragons and elementals are immune to fire), meaning even with a higher number of dice, you're still looking at less to no damage if facing the wrong enemies.
Thorn Whip (not linked, but will be eventually) requires a melee spell attack, which means it's usable at melee range, but it only deals 1d6 damage and it has the unfortunate side effect of pulling the enemy closer to you. Now, this can be incredibly useful for combo attacks, such as pulling them into the effect of a Moonbeam, a pit, or some other type of hazard, so I believe this to be a staple spell of the druid, but not for damage dealing purposes (4d6 at level 17 averages out to 14 damage, not really the reason for casting the spell).
That's it as far as spells in the PHB, so besides Thorn Whip, Shillelagh is clearly a staple spell. Now, there are two other spells listed in the Elemental Evil player's companion:
Frostbite again requires a Constitution saving throw, which has the same problem as before. This does cold damage, which is less commonly resisted/immune than poison or fire. It also has the control aspect of causing the target's next weapon attack roll to be at disadvantage. Like thorn whip, the damage is a d6 and thus the control is the most useful aspect of it. Probably the best available spell for druids who want to stay at range.
Thunderclap great area of effect attack cantrip (though it AGAIN requires Constitution saving throws AND it can hit your allies, so it is generally used with caution). Not many creatures are resistant to thunder damage, and even less are immune (Storm Giants, Djinni, and Yan-C-Bin (the elemental prince of air). The damage is low, but it's mostly used for hitting multiple targets.
So, if you are using Elemental Evil spells, the two to pick would probably be Frostbite and Thunderclap, as that's a single target damage dealing spell (with control and at range) and an AoE. If you aren't using Elemental Evil Spells, you're probably going to want to pick Produce Flame/Poison Spray as your ranged attack and Shillelagh/Thorn Whip as your melee/control spell.
Looking at the damage at first level, assuming a 16-17 main stat, you're looking at 4-11 damage for Shillelagh without the ability to be resisted, except by Demiliches and Bear Totem Barbarians (which you likely won't be fighting). Meanwhile a challenge rating 1/8 Manes is resistant to fire and cold, and immune to poison. CR 0 Lemure are immune to fire and poison and resistant to cold, as well.
So, while things are resistant/immune to half of the other spells, your whomping stick will work just fine (it also won't have to worry about disadvantage for being in melee range in case you get attacked). Oh, AND it's a bonus action cast and lasts the entire combat encounter, thus allowing you to cast that AND another cantrip (or melee attack) if you are in range.
Hell, a war cleric taking it as a magic initiate spell is just stupid good (as is a tome warlock taking it as one of their Book of Shadows cantrips).
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thorn whip is more superior. average of 14 is better than 1d8+wis. and you can not pull the creature if want to right ? I mean its your spell !!!! druids really have a really Shitty cantrips. and the range is appsmile. Shillelagh and Magic Stone are basically war clerics and monks spells. unless you have a way to change the spell casting modifiers. its for characters that have extra attack feature and not useful for druids.
I am currently playing a Druid in a game here on the boards, and I do find the spell to be a bit lackluster. I don't get any extra attacks as a Druid, and the damage is far less than one of my beast forms, so for me it would only come out if I was out of spells completely, out of transformations completely, and running is not an option.
Ways I could see this spell getting better: At 5th level have the spell grant an extra attack for the caster, and then at 11th or higher have it increase the damage dice to a 1d10. 2d10+2xWis (so we'll say 20 wisdom) is only 12-30 damage, which feels right for a cantrip cast by an 11th level caster or higher.
Can I ask, do you say that as an opinion or do you have math behind the statement? (I am not sure how to say this without sounding like a jerk, just know I am genuinely curious how you came to your conclusion)
Can I ask, do you say that as an opinion or do you have math behind the statement? (I am not sure how to say this without sounding like a jerk, just know I am genuinely curious how you came to your conclusion)
1) it becomes obsolete without dice increasing in higher levels. 2) a druid out of wild form going into melee.... not the best choice. 3) the UA starter spells Primal savagery is way way way waaaaay more powerful and suitable for druids. and at level 14 can be used in beast forms instead of weaker animal attacks. 4) the only way this cantrip ever get any better if you found a magic club +3 that deals 2d4 then shillelagh would make it 2d8. but good luck with that. that's maybe a DM choice if he wants to be merciful. 5) druids in general dont have enough Attack rolls spells and that make +2 to spell attack really obsolete. 6) that is a cantrip slot that is gone for ever. you cant change it. if for a chance each time you learn a new cantrip you can chose to change another canter "like how bards learns new spells" then yeah I would say this is Very good cantrip.
so ... you tell me that Throwing away a cantrip slot to get "Best spell" through 1-5 levels . is better than not taking it and still have better cantrips for 5 - 20 level ? 5 levels or 15 levels .... hummmmm
Or you did. Or things just didn't go your way. But if from levels 5-20 I'm worried about my damage-dealing cantrips' effectiveness, then what the heck is going on with my real spells?
So I do believe Shillelagh needs a little something for those non-shape change druids that want to go melee from time to time. I got this idea from either WebDM or Nerdarchy or Dawnforgecast, not sure which. Keep everything about the spell the same except the line about damage.
Change: For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8.
To: For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die increases by one step (d8 becomes d10 or d10 becomes 2d6).
If you still feel its a little lack lackluster maybe add an extra +1 damage at levels 5, 11, and 17.
One thing people here are missing in their math on Shillegah. It stacks with anything else you use it on.
So have you got a +3 club? Well thats +3 on your melee attacks as well + any special weapon effects. As well as having +3 to hit. Hasted? Well now Shillegah is affecting 2 hits per turn.
Given a +3 club/staff is a lot easier to find and cheaper than a +3 wand.
Or do what I'm doing. Satyr Cleric of music god, Magic Initiate to get Shillelagh. now I can beat them with my guitar ;)
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Shillelagh is the only damage dealing cantrip that doesn't do extra damage at higher levels, making it useless at higher levels. This is because as written a character of another class could get it from multiclassing or Magic Initiate feat and combine the increased damage with other class' features. such as extra attack. Most of the questions I have seen relate to how it interacts with other class features. I propose an alternative version in line with Green Flame Blade. This would be instantaneous. You make a single attack as part of the cantrip. This does 1d8 plus wisdom bonus at first level, increases to 2d8 at 5th level
Shillelagh isn't an actual damage dealing spell, though. It is a buff spell that increases your ability to deal damage.
It is supposed to be used to supplement your ability to deal damage with weapon attacks for enemies who have magical resistances or resistance to non-magical weapons (like a Vampire for example) for every melee attack you can make.
In your example, a creature who has resistance to non-magical weapons could provoke opportunity attacks all day and not worry about the druid hurting it.
Your version couldn't still be a bonus action, because the action economy would be destroyed by the idea of a Polearm Master Fighter who already has 4 attacks a round will now get a 5th attack that is the equivalent of multiple attacks with a d8 weapon. So, you'd have to make it a standard action cast time, but now you're removing the effectiveness of the action economy for the druid. I mean, there are plenty of times where my party's druid has taken his action to do something and then cast Shillelagh before the end of his turn (or before he even enters the room).
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
yeah taking Shillelagh and Magic Stone are the worst choices I ever done for my charcter :\ .... Appsolutely useless
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
While I'll agree with Magic Stone, I absolutely disagree with Shillelagh being useless.
Look at the other available Druid cantrips:
Poison Spray requires Constitution Save. Most undead, fiends, elementals, and constructs (as well as poison-based monsters like green dragons, and some plant creatures) are immune to poison damage. Also, constitution is a fairly high stat for most beasts and warriors, so most of the enemies that have a high AC (the downfall of spells with attack rolls), chances are they are also going to have a high constitution. You're pretty much looking at only using this effectively against enemy spellcasters. Now, its damage IS a d12, so that's a selling point over the d8 of Shillelagh (though I've house ruled it that it's a d10 if used on a quarterstaff and used two-handed, since quarterstaves are versatile weapons), but with so many common creatures being immune to the damage (let alone those resistant to poison damage), I'm less impressed (4d12 at 17th+ level is still only 26 damage, 13 if resistant, 0 if immune)
Produce Flame requires a ranged spell attack, which if done at close range, causes disadvantage on the attack roll. The damage type is fire, which has the highest rate of of damage reduction of the damage types (and most fiends and many dragons and elementals are immune to fire), meaning even with a higher number of dice, you're still looking at less to no damage if facing the wrong enemies.
Thorn Whip (not linked, but will be eventually) requires a melee spell attack, which means it's usable at melee range, but it only deals 1d6 damage and it has the unfortunate side effect of pulling the enemy closer to you. Now, this can be incredibly useful for combo attacks, such as pulling them into the effect of a Moonbeam, a pit, or some other type of hazard, so I believe this to be a staple spell of the druid, but not for damage dealing purposes (4d6 at level 17 averages out to 14 damage, not really the reason for casting the spell).
That's it as far as spells in the PHB, so besides Thorn Whip, Shillelagh is clearly a staple spell. Now, there are two other spells listed in the Elemental Evil player's companion:
Frostbite again requires a Constitution saving throw, which has the same problem as before. This does cold damage, which is less commonly resisted/immune than poison or fire. It also has the control aspect of causing the target's next weapon attack roll to be at disadvantage. Like thorn whip, the damage is a d6 and thus the control is the most useful aspect of it. Probably the best available spell for druids who want to stay at range.
Thunderclap great area of effect attack cantrip (though it AGAIN requires Constitution saving throws AND it can hit your allies, so it is generally used with caution). Not many creatures are resistant to thunder damage, and even less are immune (Storm Giants, Djinni, and Yan-C-Bin (the elemental prince of air). The damage is low, but it's mostly used for hitting multiple targets.
So, if you are using Elemental Evil spells, the two to pick would probably be Frostbite and Thunderclap, as that's a single target damage dealing spell (with control and at range) and an AoE. If you aren't using Elemental Evil Spells, you're probably going to want to pick Produce Flame/Poison Spray as your ranged attack and Shillelagh/Thorn Whip as your melee/control spell.
Looking at the damage at first level, assuming a 16-17 main stat, you're looking at 4-11 damage for Shillelagh without the ability to be resisted, except by Demiliches and Bear Totem Barbarians (which you likely won't be fighting). Meanwhile a challenge rating 1/8 Manes is resistant to fire and cold, and immune to poison. CR 0 Lemure are immune to fire and poison and resistant to cold, as well.
So, while things are resistant/immune to half of the other spells, your whomping stick will work just fine (it also won't have to worry about disadvantage for being in melee range in case you get attacked). Oh, AND it's a bonus action cast and lasts the entire combat encounter, thus allowing you to cast that AND another cantrip (or melee attack) if you are in range.
Hell, a war cleric taking it as a magic initiate spell is just stupid good (as is a tome warlock taking it as one of their Book of Shadows cantrips).
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Thorn whip is more superior. average of 14 is better than 1d8+wis. and you can not pull the creature if want to right ? I mean its your spell !!!!
druids really have a really Shitty cantrips. and the range is appsmile.
Shillelagh and Magic Stone are basically war clerics and monks spells. unless you have a way to change the spell casting modifiers.
its for characters that have extra attack feature and not useful for druids.
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
I am currently playing a Druid in a game here on the boards, and I do find the spell to be a bit lackluster. I don't get any extra attacks as a Druid, and the damage is far less than one of my beast forms, so for me it would only come out if I was out of spells completely, out of transformations completely, and running is not an option.
Ways I could see this spell getting better: At 5th level have the spell grant an extra attack for the caster, and then at 11th or higher have it increase the damage dice to a 1d10. 2d10+2xWis (so we'll say 20 wisdom) is only 12-30 damage, which feels right for a cantrip cast by an 11th level caster or higher.
I'm going to jump in and say that shillelagh is the best combat cantrip in Tier 1, short of eldritch blast from an eldritch blast-optimized warlock.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Can I ask, do you say that as an opinion or do you have math behind the statement? (I am not sure how to say this without sounding like a jerk, just know I am genuinely curious how you came to your conclusion)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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1) it becomes obsolete without dice increasing in higher levels.
2) a druid out of wild form going into melee.... not the best choice.
3) the UA starter spells Primal savagery is way way way waaaaay more powerful and suitable for druids. and at level 14 can be used in beast forms instead of weaker animal attacks.
4) the only way this cantrip ever get any better if you found a magic club +3 that deals 2d4 then shillelagh would make it 2d8. but good luck with that. that's maybe a DM choice if he wants to be merciful.
5) druids in general dont have enough Attack rolls spells and that make +2 to spell attack really obsolete.
6) that is a cantrip slot that is gone for ever. you cant change it. if for a chance each time you learn a new cantrip you can chose to change another canter "like how bards learns new spells" then yeah I would say this is Very good cantrip.
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
Primal savagery is a melee spell attack, so you don't add anything to damage, which means that shillelagh is still best until 5th level.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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so ... you tell me that Throwing away a cantrip slot to get "Best spell" through 1-5 levels . is better than not taking it and still have better cantrips for 5 - 20 level ?
5 levels or 15 levels .... hummmmm
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
There's always the question of whether or not you'll get to 5th level. Or even 2nd level.
If you start at 5th level or higher, then by all means skip shillelagh. If you start at 1st level, it'll do a lot to help you get to 2nd.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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if you died before 3`rd level your DM Fd up XD
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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So I do believe Shillelagh needs a little something for those non-shape change druids that want to go melee from time to time. I got this idea from either WebDM or Nerdarchy or Dawnforgecast, not sure which. Keep everything about the spell the same except the line about damage.
Change:
For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die becomes a d8.
To:
For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weapon's damage die increases by one step (d8 becomes d10 or d10 becomes 2d6).
If you still feel its a little lack lackluster maybe add an extra +1 damage at levels 5, 11, and 17.
I suppose you could have it do 1d10 at 5th level, 1d12 at 11th, and 2d6 at 17th.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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So booming blade for the druid pretty stupid
One thing people here are missing in their math on Shillegah.
It stacks with anything else you use it on.
So have you got a +3 club? Well thats +3 on your melee attacks as well + any special weapon effects.
As well as having +3 to hit. Hasted? Well now Shillegah is affecting 2 hits per turn.
Given a +3 club/staff is a lot easier to find and cheaper than a +3 wand.
Or do what I'm doing. Satyr Cleric of music god, Magic Initiate to get Shillelagh. now I can beat them with my guitar ;)