I would like your feedback, since I thematically WANT to roleplay as a coffeelock for an upcoming campaign. You will not be burdened with the whole backstory, but that’s the reason why I want to go this route, and I don’t just want the DM to say “NO!” I want the character to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the party though, but not break the campaign so to speak or create “too much hassle” for my DM.
Preamble: - It is Dungeon of the Mad Mage possibly going from level 5 to 20. - I will be playing a faun (female satyr). - We start at level 5, so I will be sorcerer 2 / warlock 3. - I want to play as a runechild sorcerer and a GOO tome warlock.
Quickly for those who do not know how the “classic” coffeelock exploit work: - You can convert spell slots into sorcery points (and back again). - Making spell levels with sorcery points does not replace existing ones but make a new one, so if you have 4 1st level slots and you make another you would get a 5th, etc. - You’re allowed to change warlock pact slots to sorcery points and use those back again to make sorcerer spell slots. - Pact slots are able to be replenished at a short rest, thus you would be able to prior to a short rest convert them to sorcery points and convert the points to a sorcerer slot. - Here’s the kicker: You can instead of a long rest (which would reset your spellslots, etc.) take 8 short rests instead, which would possibly give you for instance 32 spell slots, which would give you for instance 16 1st level spell slots for shield, etc. - So within a few days of travelling there can basicly be a close to infinite amount of spell slots to use, which breaks the game.
Many DMs have tried to make changes and house-rules to stop this from happening, and some examples include: - Not allow more than for instance your normal max # of spell slots. IE. Never more than 4 level 1 slots, etc. (This however also take away a sorcerer’s ability to shuffle their magic around, which is some of the point of the class. If I do not want a 5th level slot because I don’t envision myself using that spellslots, but I want to make more 1st level slots because I need those, I should be able to as a sorcerer.) - Use variant rule to give exhaustion if you don’t long rest in a 24 hour period, since everyone need to sleep. This have been worked around by many theorycrafters by being a warforged, taking the Aspect of the Moon invocation, etc. and DMs have just responded back with still counts as a long rest, etc. - Ban it just because they’ve heard its OP!
Now, my take at a solution to this is based on “what you sacrifice to get your combo going” as far as I view it and to “find a limit to the combo”….
Let us first take a look at what the player “gives up”, since everyone just talk about the pros and not the cons: - You must have a 3 level warlock dip “tax” on your sorcerer to make a coffeelock sorlock. This means that your level 5 fireball is 3 levels late for instance, when its impact is much less felt, thus limiting you to always have “lower level spells than your peers”. - You must often give up something to limit the exhaustion if your DM plays with that or a similar rule (which many do). ^ Since I don’t want to be a warforged, I have to give up one of my invocations for “aspect of the moon” which doesn’t do anything else than just make it viable, so no devil sight, fiendish vigour, etc. If you want agonizing blast, etc. ^ To take the aspect I have to be a GOO lock, which means no hexblade and no medium armour - Making me much more squishy/glasscannon! - You cannot convert past level 5 spell slots, which means that once you become a high level coffeelock you will not have a way to get your highest level spells back when not sleeping. So you do not get your 7th level spell back to cast more teleports, etc. ^ Granted this is a problem which most campaigns do not reach, but when you want to play to 20 if possible, it will gimp you when all your party and consequently your opposition becomes much harder. ^ Some DMs mean that since you take Aspect which means you CANNOT be put to sleep you also cannot choose to do it to reset. ^ This means that you’re forced to take your 8 short rests which mean you can never recover your 6+ level spells.
The combo is simply stopped by the DM placing a restriction, but there are ramifications to where you place it, so let us review those: - “You cannot take more than one short rest consecutively!” This limits the sorlock tremendously, because it also doesn’t automatically get the same refresh as the friends around you who are sleeping. Let us review a similar 5th level wizard snoring beside you for instance. He is totally tapped out, but when he awakes he can cast 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells and 2 3rd level spells. To create the exact same amount of spellslots I would have to use 27 sorcery points, which is almost the 32 I have from doing this, so I would say that by level 5 already your spell “replenishment” is already possibly on par, and as your peers get higher level spells it will only worsen for you. - “Yeah, but you do not loose anything, so you can save up from day to day!” Ok, valid point, but where to place the restriction? Since you should be able to change up some levels if you want since that is a class feature. - “Ok, you can take your max +X then!” This is approaching something that is workable, but doesn’t take into account that if I cannot spend sorcery points to change much of my spell slots then, which mean that I would be “forced” to spend all my sorcery points every day to not loose out a lot of possible downtime conversion, which means that there will be a lot more quickened EBs, etc., which might also somewhat break the game (4+ eldritch blasts rutinely by level 5+ is a lot of potential damage during a day.)
MY PROPOSED SOLUTION: - I will play as a Runechild Sorcerer X/GOO Tomelock 3 during the campaign. (This means 9th level spells on level 20, fireball on level 8, no hexblade medium armour, etc.) - I will use the Spell Point Variant rule from the DMG (just for me and not other casters). Thus there is a limit to what I CAN have and I can churn out Shields all day and never a high level spells, or be a nova, but then be totally spent. - I would just ADD your sorcery points on top of the “spell points by level” table and use it as a single resource. (This removes the whole conversion bit and makes it a lot easier to keep track of since your spells and sorcery points now cost fixed amounts of a single resource.) - Since I am 3 levels Warlock and Aspect of the Moon I would refresh 4 Spell Points every short rest, and 32 each long rest. This means that I cannot go overboard with spells or metamagic, because by level 5-7 I could only refresh as much as you would by spell levels on a long rest as another full caster anyway, which would gimp me for days if I go overboard keeping the character in check. (Alternatively if I keep Spell Points and Sorcery Points separate I must allow a non-sleep long rest instead of shorts to refuel Spell Points and/or use a conversion rate between them) - I will not take the eldtrich blast cantrip, since it is the most exploitable single target damage in this system (2 spell points to quicken Eldritch Blast? Queue captain America saying “I can do this all day!”), limiting myself to Mind Sliver or similar cantrips.
In my opinion this allows the sorlock to feel like a sorcerer and warlock which hasn't the same array of spell choices as the wizard, druid or cleric, but can cast with more freedom from their more limited spell selection....
Would you allow this as a DM? Which other changes would you implement?
As a DM I would not allow coffeelock in any form as it is built to break the game. As a player I would be annoyed with another player playing one. No interest in spending all day in short rests. At my current table the DM only allows 2 shorts rests per day so that would kind of limit it.
As a DM, I would never allow one player to use a significantly different rule set (spell points) than the other players, because it is simply not fair and will eventually generate resentment at the table.
Aspect of the Moon reads:
You no longer need to sleep and can’t be forced to sleep by any means. To gain the benefits of a long rest, you can spend all 8 hours doing light activity, such as reading your Book of Shadows and keeping watch.
No where in there does it say you no longer need to long rest.
Warforged reads:
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you unconscious, and you can see and hear as normal.
It explicitly says you take long rests, thus implies you still need long rests.
The Basic rules state:
Heroic though they might be, adventurers can't spend every hour of the day in the thick of exploration, social interaction, and combat. They need rest--time to sleep and eat, tend their wounds, refresh their minds and spirits for spellcasting, and brace themselves for further adventure.
No DM should allow any player to just skip a crucial part of the game balance like Long Resting. Beyond the basic game balance / RAW argument, it will be incredibly annoying for the rest of the party if you are constantly whining for them to use their spell slots to heal you because you refuse to long rest to regain hit dice or hit points and have no way to heal yourself, while you walk around with an endless supply of spellslots.
PS Rather than not taking Eldritch Blast (which it pretty necessary for viability at low levels), I simply ban Sorlocks from taking Quicken Spell.
I would like your feedback, since I thematically WANT to roleplay as a coffeelock for an upcoming campaign.
You will not be burdened with the whole backstory, but that’s the reason why I want to go this route, and I don’t just want the DM to say “NO!”
I want the character to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the party though, but not break the campaign so to speak or create “too much hassle” for my DM.
Preamble:
- It is Dungeon of the Mad Mage possibly going from level 5 to 20.
- I will be playing a faun (female satyr).
- We start at level 5, so I will be sorcerer 2 / warlock 3.
- I want to play as a runechild sorcerer and a GOO tome warlock.
Quickly for those who do not know how the “classic” coffeelock exploit work:
- You can convert spell slots into sorcery points (and back again).
- Making spell levels with sorcery points does not replace existing ones but make a new one, so if you have 4 1st level slots and you make another you would get a 5th, etc.
- You’re allowed to change warlock pact slots to sorcery points and use those back again to make sorcerer spell slots.
- Pact slots are able to be replenished at a short rest, thus you would be able to prior to a short rest convert them to sorcery points and convert the points to a sorcerer slot.
- Here’s the kicker: You can instead of a long rest (which would reset your spellslots, etc.) take 8 short rests instead, which would possibly give you for instance 32 spell slots, which would give you for instance 16 1st level spell slots for shield, etc.
- So within a few days of travelling there can basicly be a close to infinite amount of spell slots to use, which breaks the game.
Many DMs have tried to make changes and house-rules to stop this from happening, and some examples include:
- Not allow more than for instance your normal max # of spell slots. IE. Never more than 4 level 1 slots, etc.
(This however also take away a sorcerer’s ability to shuffle their magic around, which is some of the point of the class. If I do not want a 5th level slot because I don’t envision myself using that spellslots, but I want to make more 1st level slots because I need those, I should be able to as a sorcerer.)
- Use variant rule to give exhaustion if you don’t long rest in a 24 hour period, since everyone need to sleep.
This have been worked around by many theorycrafters by being a warforged, taking the Aspect of the Moon invocation, etc. and DMs have just responded back with still counts as a long rest, etc.
- Ban it just because they’ve heard its OP!
Now, my take at a solution to this is based on “what you sacrifice to get your combo going” as far as I view it and to “find a limit to the combo”….
Let us first take a look at what the player “gives up”, since everyone just talk about the pros and not the cons:
- You must have a 3 level warlock dip “tax” on your sorcerer to make a coffeelock sorlock. This means that your level 5 fireball is 3 levels late for instance, when its impact is much less felt, thus limiting you to always have “lower level spells than your peers”.
- You must often give up something to limit the exhaustion if your DM plays with that or a similar rule (which many do).
^ Since I don’t want to be a warforged, I have to give up one of my invocations for “aspect of the moon” which doesn’t do anything else than just make it viable, so no devil sight, fiendish vigour, etc. If you want agonizing blast, etc.
^ To take the aspect I have to be a GOO lock, which means no hexblade and no medium armour - Making me much more squishy/glasscannon!
- You cannot convert past level 5 spell slots, which means that once you become a high level coffeelock you will not have a way to get your highest level spells back when not sleeping. So you do not get your 7th level spell back to cast more teleports, etc.
^ Granted this is a problem which most campaigns do not reach, but when you want to play to 20 if possible, it will gimp you when all your party and consequently your opposition becomes much harder.
^ Some DMs mean that since you take Aspect which means you CANNOT be put to sleep you also cannot choose to do it to reset.
^ This means that you’re forced to take your 8 short rests which mean you can never recover your 6+ level spells.
The combo is simply stopped by the DM placing a restriction, but there are ramifications to where you place it, so let us review those:
- “You cannot take more than one short rest consecutively!” This limits the sorlock tremendously, because it also doesn’t automatically get the same refresh as the friends around you who are sleeping. Let us review a similar 5th level wizard snoring beside you for instance. He is totally tapped out, but when he awakes he can cast 4 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells and 2 3rd level spells. To create the exact same amount of spellslots I would have to use 27 sorcery points, which is almost the 32 I have from doing this, so I would say that by level 5 already your spell “replenishment” is already possibly on par, and as your peers get higher level spells it will only worsen for you.
- “Yeah, but you do not loose anything, so you can save up from day to day!” Ok, valid point, but where to place the restriction? Since you should be able to change up some levels if you want since that is a class feature.
- “Ok, you can take your max +X then!” This is approaching something that is workable, but doesn’t take into account that if I cannot spend sorcery points to change much of my spell slots then, which mean that I would be “forced” to spend all my sorcery points every day to not loose out a lot of possible downtime conversion, which means that there will be a lot more quickened EBs, etc., which might also somewhat break the game (4+ eldritch blasts rutinely by level 5+ is a lot of potential damage during a day.)
MY PROPOSED SOLUTION:
- I will play as a Runechild Sorcerer X/GOO Tomelock 3 during the campaign. (This means 9th level spells on level 20, fireball on level 8, no hexblade medium armour, etc.)
- I will use the Spell Point Variant rule from the DMG (just for me and not other casters). Thus there is a limit to what I CAN have and I can churn out Shields all day and never a high level spells, or be a nova, but then be totally spent.
- I would just ADD your sorcery points on top of the “spell points by level” table and use it as a single resource. (This removes the whole conversion bit and makes it a lot easier to keep track of since your spells and sorcery points now cost fixed amounts of a single resource.)
- Since I am 3 levels Warlock and Aspect of the Moon I would refresh 4 Spell Points every short rest, and 32 each long rest. This means that I cannot go overboard with spells or metamagic, because by level 5-7 I could only refresh as much as you would by spell levels on a long rest as another full caster anyway, which would gimp me for days if I go overboard keeping the character in check. (Alternatively if I keep Spell Points and Sorcery Points separate I must allow a non-sleep long rest instead of shorts to refuel Spell Points and/or use a conversion rate between them)
- I will not take the eldtrich blast cantrip, since it is the most exploitable single target damage in this system (2 spell points to quicken Eldritch Blast? Queue captain America saying “I can do this all day!”), limiting myself to Mind Sliver or similar cantrips.
In my opinion this allows the sorlock to feel like a sorcerer and warlock which hasn't the same array of spell choices as the wizard, druid or cleric, but can cast with more freedom from their more limited spell selection....
Would you allow this as a DM? Which other changes would you implement?
As a DM I would not allow coffeelock in any form as it is built to break the game. As a player I would be annoyed with another player playing one. No interest in spending all day in short rests. At my current table the DM only allows 2 shorts rests per day so that would kind of limit it.
As a DM, I would never allow one player to use a significantly different rule set (spell points) than the other players, because it is simply not fair and will eventually generate resentment at the table.
Aspect of the Moon reads:
No where in there does it say you no longer need to long rest.
Warforged reads:
It explicitly says you take long rests, thus implies you still need long rests.
The Basic rules state:
No DM should allow any player to just skip a crucial part of the game balance like Long Resting. Beyond the basic game balance / RAW argument, it will be incredibly annoying for the rest of the party if you are constantly whining for them to use their spell slots to heal you because you refuse to long rest to regain hit dice or hit points and have no way to heal yourself, while you walk around with an endless supply of spellslots.
PS Rather than not taking Eldritch Blast (which it pretty necessary for viability at low levels), I simply ban Sorlocks from taking Quicken Spell.