Heya guys, so for the past few weeks I've been developing a playable version of the Thri-Kreen that are most often found in the Dark Sun campaign setting. They're praying mantis people, nomadic in nature and rarely join society or civilisations, this is my first complete race I've created so please let me know what you think and what you think might need changing <3
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and your Wisdom score increases by 1. Age. Thri-Kreen mature incredibly fast, reaching adulthood at 5 years. As a result of this, it is uncommon for them to live close to 30. Alignment. Most Thri-Kreen are choatic, as they live as people of the land, acting only for their benefit, and the benefit of the clutch. Thri-Kreen are almost entirely neutral, caring only about members of their clutch. Their language makes it near impossible for outsiders to determine any definable personality or strong emotions. Size. Thri-kreen can stand from 4 to 7 feet tall, weighing between 100 and 380 pounds. Your size is Medium Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet. Darkvision. Due to the insectoid ancestry of Thri-Kreen, you have mastered the ability to hunt in dark conditions, you are able to see in dim light out to 60 feet as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern colours in darkness, only shades of grey. Multi-Limbed. Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature. Given this, you have the ability to wield double-handed weapons in one set of arms and light weapons in your smaller set, granting you the versatile use of the double handed weapons as a result. Additionally, you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by half its regular amount. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price. Chameleon Armour. Thri-Kreen have inbuilt abilities that allow them to disguise their carapace, becoming one with the environment surrounding them. You have advantage on all Stealth checks made in desert or forested regions. Martial Masters. As a Thri-Kreen, you have proficiency in gythkas and chatkchas. Sleepless Beings. Thri-Kreen do not require sleep, only needing to rest while performing light activities and remaining alert for 4 hours. This grants you the same benefits as a long rest. Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Thri-Kreen. Thri-Kreen is a fast, sharp language with a series of odd clicks and whistle sounds embedded in it. This carries over into other languages Thri-Kreen speak, which gives them a very strange and outlandish image in the eyes of others.
The only (possibly) imbalanced thing is that they can, black-and-white, take a long rest in half the time. Technically, the elves still take 8 hour long rests, they just don't sleep during that time, so this is like a super beefy version of that trait. That said, unless the whole party are thri-keen, the group as a whole will still take 8 hours, so it's mostly irrelevant. It just means that interrupted group rests might not interrupt the one guy, which is actually a nice little bonus.
Having a second pair of arms is a wonky thing in actual play, because it has a ton of implicit power. That is to say, the more creative a player is, the more powerful the creature's anatomy becomes, simply because of the implications of having extra hands. Now, I'm assuming that your wording of the feature is meant as an example of what can be done, and not an absolute strict restriction on potential equipment layouts. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Such a character could grapple an enemy and then subsequently attack that enemy with a two-handed weapon without losing the grapple.
With 4 free hands, they could potentially grapple 4 enemies simultaneously. (The rule does specify only one free hand being necessary)
They could hold a long bow and a shield at the same time.
They can hold a great sword, shield, and arcane focus at the same time.
They can quaff a potion without dropping their sword or shield.
They now have the free hand necessary to satisfy the reloading object interaction requirement of dual-wielding hand crossbows.
Etc.
It can get more interesting if the player begins to set up situations where their extra hands allow them to interact with the environment in ways that 2-armed creatures simply cannot compete with... especially if they're the type to MacGyver traps into play.
That said, as far as I'm concerned, anything which blatantly rewards creative and strategic play is a good thing! I just think it can take an inexperienced or unprepared DM by surprise.
I like this treatment of the thri-keen a lot, though I'm not especially knowledgeable about the lore, so I don't know how accurate of a representation it is. It just sounds fun to play.
Thanks for the feedback! For the second pair of arms I can see what you mean with all your examples, I'll have to go into some extra detail or slim down on what they're capable of to make sure players don't go too overboard with it. The girl I'm handing it off to playtest for me is very much focused on damage dealing rather than major tactics so I don't imagine I'll see it getting abused if it can there, but I'll make sure to keep an eye out.
As for their rest times and lore I pretty much went from their lore found in the forgotten realms wiki and what was set out in the Monster Manual, leaving out a few features such as psionics and the inability to speak Common.
I'm glad you think it sounds fun, they're a really cool race and I hope to balance this out properly.
Just state that the smaller pair of arms has half your strength score. That way, melee attacks made using them almost certainly get an attack penalty, or at best +6 with maximum proficiency and 20STR. That would functionally restrict them to finesse or ranged weapons at those equipment points, without explicitly banning weapon types/traits. It would also reduce their push/drag/lift capacity with those limbs, so a player couldn't drag an unconscious ally behind him while simultaneously swinging a glaive.
Or, you could just say the smaller arms can't grapple. Proportional reach limitation prevents it.
Multi-Limbed. Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature. Given this, you have the ability to wield double-handed weapons in one set of arms and light weapons in your smaller set, granting you the versatile use of the double handed weapons as a result. Additionally, you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by half its regular amount. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price.
That would make them superior to the Thri-Keen as found in the Monster Manual, who only get a multi-attack (Bite and Claw) or else a multi-attack (thri-keen martial weapons). All the other rules still apply to them. Intentional?
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I think there's a lot of ways to potentially go about it, maybe a simple solution would to just increase the carry/drag/lift capacity by a small amount. Though I do like the idea of the secondary arms using half your strength score, and yeah, using the smaller arms to grapple doesn't seem like it should be possible
Multi-Limbed. Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature. Given this, you have the ability to wield double-handed weapons in one set of arms and light weapons in your smaller set, granting you the versatile use of the double handed weapons as a result. Additionally, you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by half its regular amount. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price.
That would make them superior to the Thri-Keen as found in the Monster Manual, who only get a multi-attack (Bite and Claw) or else a multi-attack (thri-keen martial weapons). All the other rules still apply to them. Intentional?
I wanted to make sure they weren't too OP, and I feel giving them a natural weapon at this point would do so. If they played a class that granted them an extra attack at level 5 I'd probably allow them to use both sets of arms to make attacks without having to swap weapons since they already were carrying them, not a huge buff but still a niche feature
I don't think there's anything wrong with PCs being representationally superior to their NPC equivalents. Look at the goblin race compared to goblin NPC traits from the DMG or the goblin statblock in the MM. As long as the actual math is within the intent of bounded accuracy for their level, it should be fine.
Yeah, the multi-limb ability really has been the only thing giving me grief, I'm gonna test out everyone's suggestions and see what works in the playtest. Definitely going to specify exactly what can and can't be done with the extra arm set so abuse isn't easy
Multi-Limbed. Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature. Given this, you have the ability to wield double-handed weapons in one set of arms and light weapons in your smaller set, granting you the versatile use of the double handed weapons as a result. Additionally, you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by half its regular amount. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price.
This seems like it could be taken advantage of really quickly. I suppose it wouldn't make total sense because they would obviously be accustomed to using 4 arms, but if you gave PCs a disadvantage while wielding a lot of stuff because it is either mentally or physically hard to keep track of it all at once.
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Do not expect people to be smart, but do not allow them to be stupid. If there is one thing I have learned it is this.
So, I made some changes, slimmed down on the possibilities, streamlined the abilities granted and made it clear what could and could not be done with the feature. What do you think?
Multi-Limbed. While not amazingly strong, your second set of arms can be used to hold small items, such as potions, wands, and you can throw chatkchas with them. With these arms you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by a quarter of its regular amount if all four arms are used. Any strength checks using solely the second set of hands uses half of your strength modifier rounded down. They cannot aid in grappling. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price.
If I may suggest, this is what I think would be fitting and not be too much and risk being too over powered, keeping in mind compared to the average person in dnd, a player character at 1st level is superior to even the most buff civilian or pesant or otherwise average normal person.
Multi-Limbed.Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature, thus allowing you to perform the sematic components of spells with your lower set of arms while your upper set of arms is holding a weapon or a shield in one or both hands, you also have advantage on Strength checks. You also can use ignore the reloading property of weapons you are holding or perform an action to interact with an item, such as using a potion, as a bonus action if it would normally cost an action or as a free action if it would normally cost a bonus action.
and possably also adding the effects of the "Grappler" feat if it still feels lacking
I play a thri-Kreen monk who since he doesn’t have to sleep is the guard the party calls him click and he usually spends his time cleaning and repairing stuff for the party
People tend to over-estimate the physical without the skill. In the movies, they love to show people firing two hand guns at once. Mythbusters (god bless them) demonstrated that you can fire one weapon quicker than you can fire two and more accurately.
You have two arms, but two weapon fighting has penalties unless you take a feat. Same should be applied here.
More hands does NOT equal more attacks. You aim your attacks and you still only have one brain. It is enough to do the following:
1) Either a) hold a Two handed weapon with two hands or b) fight with normal two weapon rules or c) Shoot a bow/reload crossbows while ALSO...
2) Hold a shield with another hand, gaining full benefit
3) Still have a hand free to cast spells, hold onto a back up weapon (bow) OR maintain a grapple.
I would however allow a custom feat along the lines of:
Four Weapon fighting:
You master fighting with four weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You wield upto 4 light weapons, getting 3 extra attacks by using up both your bonus action and your reaction (full stat for the first, none or negative for any other).
You can instead choose to wield two weapons of any size, getting a single extra attack as a bonus action (full stat for the first, none or negative for any other)
You can draw or stow four one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one, draw or stow upto 2 two-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
I'm also working on a Thri-Kreen homebrew, and have discussed issues with many-armed races here. I settled on the following for combat:
You can make attacks with two off-hand light weapons instead of one when engaging in two weapon fighting. Alternatively you can engage in two weapon fighting normally with a one-handed off-hand weapon that isn't light.
Any round in which you use two-weapon fighting or a shield is one in which you don't have a free hand.
You can manipulate an object twice for free in one round (subject to the above restriction on free hands).
OK.. having a dispute with current DM who is always pushing the "AS WRITTEN" rule for League games. As written says the smaller arms can use light weapons.... so the point question is if that allows them an extra attack with them.. do they function as normal arms that are just restricted by to light weapons OR are they just for show and to hang ornaments on.... if they serve no purpose... then the race itself is just a bug with telepathy
OK.. having a dispute with current DM who is always pushing the "AS WRITTEN" rule for League games. As written says the smaller arms can use light weapons.... so the point question is if that allows them an extra attack with them.. do they function as normal arms that are just restricted by to light weapons OR are they just for show and to hang ornaments on.... if they serve no purpose... then the race itself is just a bug with telepathy
The Rules As Written do not allow the Thri-Kreen to make any extra attacks with their extra arms. If they did, the species description would say that.
The extra arms are not useless, though. The most obvious use for them is to allow a character to wield two weapons while also using a shield and/or a spellcasting focus, but in general being able to hold more things at once comes in handy more often than you'd think.
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Heya guys, so for the past few weeks I've been developing a playable version of the Thri-Kreen that are most often found in the Dark Sun campaign setting. They're praying mantis people, nomadic in nature and rarely join society or civilisations, this is my first complete race I've created so please let me know what you think and what you think might need changing <3
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, and your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Age. Thri-Kreen mature incredibly fast, reaching adulthood at 5 years. As a result of this, it is uncommon for them to live close to 30.
Alignment. Most Thri-Kreen are choatic, as they live as people of the land, acting only for their benefit, and the benefit of the clutch. Thri-Kreen are almost entirely neutral, caring only about members of their clutch. Their language makes it near impossible for outsiders to determine any definable personality or strong emotions.
Size. Thri-kreen can stand from 4 to 7 feet tall, weighing between 100 and 380 pounds. Your size is Medium
Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet.
Darkvision. Due to the insectoid ancestry of Thri-Kreen, you have mastered the ability to hunt in dark conditions, you are able to see in dim light out to 60 feet as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern colours in darkness, only shades of grey.
Multi-Limbed. Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature. Given this, you have the ability to wield double-handed weapons in one set of arms and light weapons in your smaller set, granting you the versatile use of the double handed weapons as a result. Additionally, you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by half its regular amount. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price.
Chameleon Armour. Thri-Kreen have inbuilt abilities that allow them to disguise their carapace, becoming one with the environment surrounding them. You have advantage on all Stealth checks made in desert or forested regions.
Martial Masters. As a Thri-Kreen, you have proficiency in gythkas and chatkchas.
Sleepless Beings. Thri-Kreen do not require sleep, only needing to rest while performing light activities and remaining alert for 4 hours. This grants you the same benefits as a long rest.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Thri-Kreen. Thri-Kreen is a fast, sharp language with a series of odd clicks and whistle sounds embedded in it. This carries over into other languages Thri-Kreen speak, which gives them a very strange and outlandish image in the eyes of others.
"Roll for kink."
My homebrews - Naturalcrit
The only (possibly) imbalanced thing is that they can, black-and-white, take a long rest in half the time. Technically, the elves still take 8 hour long rests, they just don't sleep during that time, so this is like a super beefy version of that trait. That said, unless the whole party are thri-keen, the group as a whole will still take 8 hours, so it's mostly irrelevant. It just means that interrupted group rests might not interrupt the one guy, which is actually a nice little bonus.
Having a second pair of arms is a wonky thing in actual play, because it has a ton of implicit power. That is to say, the more creative a player is, the more powerful the creature's anatomy becomes, simply because of the implications of having extra hands. Now, I'm assuming that your wording of the feature is meant as an example of what can be done, and not an absolute strict restriction on potential equipment layouts. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Such a character could grapple an enemy and then subsequently attack that enemy with a two-handed weapon without losing the grapple.
With 4 free hands, they could potentially grapple 4 enemies simultaneously. (The rule does specify only one free hand being necessary)
They could hold a long bow and a shield at the same time.
They can hold a great sword, shield, and arcane focus at the same time.
They can quaff a potion without dropping their sword or shield.
They now have the free hand necessary to satisfy the reloading object interaction requirement of dual-wielding hand crossbows.
Etc.
It can get more interesting if the player begins to set up situations where their extra hands allow them to interact with the environment in ways that 2-armed creatures simply cannot compete with... especially if they're the type to MacGyver traps into play.
That said, as far as I'm concerned, anything which blatantly rewards creative and strategic play is a good thing! I just think it can take an inexperienced or unprepared DM by surprise.
I like this treatment of the thri-keen a lot, though I'm not especially knowledgeable about the lore, so I don't know how accurate of a representation it is. It just sounds fun to play.
Current Character: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Kydo/Ideas
Thanks for the feedback! For the second pair of arms I can see what you mean with all your examples, I'll have to go into some extra detail or slim down on what they're capable of to make sure players don't go too overboard with it. The girl I'm handing it off to playtest for me is very much focused on damage dealing rather than major tactics so I don't imagine I'll see it getting abused if it can there, but I'll make sure to keep an eye out.
As for their rest times and lore I pretty much went from their lore found in the forgotten realms wiki and what was set out in the Monster Manual, leaving out a few features such as psionics and the inability to speak Common.
I'm glad you think it sounds fun, they're a really cool race and I hope to balance this out properly.
"Roll for kink."
My homebrews - Naturalcrit
My thoughts:
Just state that the smaller pair of arms has half your strength score. That way, melee attacks made using them almost certainly get an attack penalty, or at best +6 with maximum proficiency and 20STR. That would functionally restrict them to finesse or ranged weapons at those equipment points, without explicitly banning weapon types/traits. It would also reduce their push/drag/lift capacity with those limbs, so a player couldn't drag an unconscious ally behind him while simultaneously swinging a glaive.
Or, you could just say the smaller arms can't grapple. Proportional reach limitation prevents it.
Or both. Or not.
Current Character: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Kydo/Ideas
⬐ If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
"Roll for kink."
My homebrews - Naturalcrit
"Roll for kink."
My homebrews - Naturalcrit
I don't think there's anything wrong with PCs being representationally superior to their NPC equivalents. Look at the goblin race compared to goblin NPC traits from the DMG or the goblin statblock in the MM. As long as the actual math is within the intent of bounded accuracy for their level, it should be fine.
Current Character: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/User:Kydo/Ideas
Yeah, the multi-limb ability really has been the only thing giving me grief, I'm gonna test out everyone's suggestions and see what works in the playtest. Definitely going to specify exactly what can and can't be done with the extra arm set so abuse isn't easy
"Roll for kink."
My homebrews - Naturalcrit
Do not expect people to be smart, but do not allow them to be stupid. If there is one thing I have learned it is this.
So, I made some changes, slimmed down on the possibilities, streamlined the abilities granted and made it clear what could and could not be done with the feature. What do you think?
Multi-Limbed. While not amazingly strong, your second set of arms can be used to hold small items, such as potions, wands, and you can throw chatkchas with them. With these arms you can cast spells that require somatic components while wielding weapons, play instruments with all four hands, and your carrying, lifting and dragging capacity increases by a quarter of its regular amount if all four arms are used. Any strength checks using solely the second set of hands uses half of your strength modifier rounded down. They cannot aid in grappling. This fact also means that armour for Thri-Kreen must be specially made, and is triple the regular price.
"Roll for kink."
My homebrews - Naturalcrit
If I may suggest, this is what I think would be fitting and not be too much and risk being too over powered, keeping in mind compared to the average person in dnd, a player character at 1st level is superior to even the most buff civilian or pesant or otherwise average normal person.
Multi-Limbed. Thri-Kreen are well known for their four armed nature, thus allowing you to perform the sematic components of spells with your lower set of arms while your upper set of arms is holding a weapon or a shield in one or both hands, you also have advantage on Strength checks. You also can use ignore the reloading property of weapons you are holding or perform an action to interact with an item, such as using a potion, as a bonus action if it would normally cost an action or as a free action if it would normally cost a bonus action.
and possably also adding the effects of the "Grappler" feat if it still feels lacking
I play a thri-Kreen monk who since he doesn’t have to sleep is the guard the party calls him click and he usually spends his time cleaning and repairing stuff for the party
People tend to over-estimate the physical without the skill. In the movies, they love to show people firing two hand guns at once. Mythbusters (god bless them) demonstrated that you can fire one weapon quicker than you can fire two and more accurately.
You have two arms, but two weapon fighting has penalties unless you take a feat. Same should be applied here.
More hands does NOT equal more attacks. You aim your attacks and you still only have one brain. It is enough to do the following:
1) Either a) hold a Two handed weapon with two hands or b) fight with normal two weapon rules or c) Shoot a bow/reload crossbows while ALSO...
2) Hold a shield with another hand, gaining full benefit
3) Still have a hand free to cast spells, hold onto a back up weapon (bow) OR maintain a grapple.
I would however allow a custom feat along the lines of:
Four Weapon fighting:
You master fighting with four weapons, gaining the following benefits:
I'm also working on a Thri-Kreen homebrew, and have discussed issues with many-armed races here. I settled on the following for combat:
These are really good ideas!
This thread aged like fine wine.
Hey! I make (what I believe to be, could use some feedback) good homebrew!
Click here!
Please tell me what you think!
OK.. having a dispute with current DM who is always pushing the "AS WRITTEN" rule for League games. As written says the smaller arms can use light weapons.... so the point question is if that allows them an extra attack with them.. do they function as normal arms that are just restricted by to light weapons OR are they just for show and to hang ornaments on.... if they serve no purpose... then the race itself is just a bug with telepathy
The Rules As Written do not allow the Thri-Kreen to make any extra attacks with their extra arms. If they did, the species description would say that.
The extra arms are not useless, though. The most obvious use for them is to allow a character to wield two weapons while also using a shield and/or a spellcasting focus, but in general being able to hold more things at once comes in handy more often than you'd think.
pronouns: he/she/they