I'm working on a book that centers around Dragons as PCs, similar to Council of Wyrms but not related to the setting of story, and including Gem dragons as well as some of the more obscure dragons (Brown, Orange, etc) published for D&D over the years. The dragon PCs aren't intended to balance against normal PC races. That being said, I am toying with the idea of including a section on playing a dragon in a normal PC group. I know there are issues of logistics, and I've written up some material on that. What I am trying to figure out is how to deal with the issue of power balance. My first thought is a level-gap, meaning the dragon PC would be several levels behind a standard PC.
Well, I'd say the most straightforward way to handle it would be to go off of the CR of the Dragon character. I mean, they'd still be far more powerful than the regular player characters, but it's the fastest way to unify the concept without carefully calculating the balance on each individual type of dragon...
Let's take a Young Bronze Dragon for our example... it's CR 8, so just to make it not totally broken, it would start at level 8, and any skills or abilities it gained in a class would only start at Level 1 past that point, and they could only reach up to Level 12 in a class.
Hmm, that brings up a point. I've evened out the types of dragons so that they are effectively the same CR at each age class. That brings them less in line with the MM, but it balances the characters vs each other. That means the listed CR isn't really applicable.
Well, I'd say the most straightforward way to handle it would be to go off of the CR of the Dragon character. I mean, they'd still be far more powerful than the regular player characters, but it's the fastest way to unify the concept without carefully calculating the balance on each individual type of dragon...
Let's take a Young Bronze Dragon for our example... it's CR 8, so just to make it not totally broken, it would start at level 8, and any skills or abilities it gained in a class would only start at Level 1 past that point, and they could only reach up to Level 12 in a class.
Looking at mage and archmage the rule seems to be more like CR = 1.5*level.
So a CR8 should equate just above 5th level.
[EDIT] the "rule" still holds for archdruid, but not for Warlock of the fiend. Probably because Warlock lose the most from only being in a single encounter.
Well, I'd say the most straightforward way to handle it would be to go off of the CR of the Dragon character. I mean, they'd still be far more powerful than the regular player characters, but it's the fastest way to unify the concept without carefully calculating the balance on each individual type of dragon...
Let's take a Young Bronze Dragon for our example... it's CR 8, so just to make it not totally broken, it would start at level 8, and any skills or abilities it gained in a class would only start at Level 1 past that point, and they could only reach up to Level 12 in a class.
Looking at mage and archmage the rule seems to be more like CR = 1.5*level.
So a CR8 should equate just above 5th level.
[EDIT] the "rule" still holds for archdruid, but not for Warlock of the fiend. Probably because Warlock lose the most from only being in a single encounter.
Your math is backwards. In the archmage example, level is 1.5 * CR. That suggests a rough equality between a CR 8 dragon and a 12th-level PC.
Generally, a creature of CR x is balanced against a group of four PCs of level x. Is a single 12th-level character the equal of four 8th-level characters? Not really. Remember, the idea is for the PCs to win, but only by expensing many resources. So by design a CR x creature is going to be WEAKER than four x-level PCs.
At the end of the day CR isn’t a great indicator, but if you don’t want to compare the dragon’s defenses and damage output to actual PC classes to try and figure out what “level” it is (which still disregards non-combat capabilities, but it’s already complicated enough, clearly), CR is all you have to go by.
Xanathar’s Guide to Everything has some tables for matching up CR to character level. By these tables, a CR 8 monster is roughly equivalent to a single PC of 17th-20th level. I think your best starting point would be to look in XGtE (the section on “Encounter Building”).
Although I'm not sure that the corrected math is wrong, does a single lv8 character has a chance against a CR8 Dragon ? I feel like a level 12 might have a chance going solo against a CR8 creature.
If we keep on your bronze dragon, it has 15 hit dice, and they're all d10. So you would need a lv15 character just to get near that health. It has *4* save proficiences, which is pretty much impossible to get outside of playing monk. It has an immunity, which is usually outside of the range of character abilities, as well as permanent blindsight. It has 3 attacks per turn, which equates a fighter lv11, and the damage dice of one of these attacks (bite for 2d10) is outside the range of what is normally possible for a character. Finally, it has permanent flight.
Without magic items, it would also take quite a few ability score improvements to reach these stats. Assuming a human fighter, you could start with 16/9/15/14/13/11, it would take 7.5 Ability Score Improvement to reach these stats, which is level 19. If we forget the charisma and just stick with an 11, that's 4.5 ASI, which takes you to ~12th level (for 4 ASI), or 14th for that final stat point.
Of course the fighter has its own abilities as well, so it's not a case of "the dragon is superior", but I would say lv12 sounds about right actually. I don't think we could make a lv8 character that stands a chance against that dragon.
[EDIT] understandably, a 12 level gap would be not fun for OP. So I would say, either nerf the dragons a bit (HP, saves), buff characters without giving them levels (HP mostly, maybe a few abilities), or a combination of both.
I'm working on a book that centers around Dragons as PCs, similar to Council of Wyrms but not related to the setting of story, and including Gem dragons as well as some of the more obscure dragons (Brown, Orange, etc) published for D&D over the years. The dragon PCs aren't intended to balance against normal PC races. That being said, I am toying with the idea of including a section on playing a dragon in a normal PC group. I know there are issues of logistics, and I've written up some material on that. What I am trying to figure out is how to deal with the issue of power balance. My first thought is a level-gap, meaning the dragon PC would be several levels behind a standard PC.
How many levels should that be?
Well, I'd say the most straightforward way to handle it would be to go off of the CR of the Dragon character. I mean, they'd still be far more powerful than the regular player characters, but it's the fastest way to unify the concept without carefully calculating the balance on each individual type of dragon...
Let's take a Young Bronze Dragon for our example... it's CR 8, so just to make it not totally broken, it would start at level 8, and any skills or abilities it gained in a class would only start at Level 1 past that point, and they could only reach up to Level 12 in a class.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Hmm, that brings up a point. I've evened out the types of dragons so that they are effectively the same CR at each age class. That brings them less in line with the MM, but it balances the characters vs each other. That means the listed CR isn't really applicable.
Looking at mage and archmage the rule seems to be more like CR = 1.5*level.
So a CR8 should equate just above 5th level.
[EDIT] the "rule" still holds for archdruid, but not for Warlock of the fiend. Probably because Warlock lose the most from only being in a single encounter.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
Your math is backwards. In the archmage example, level is 1.5 * CR. That suggests a rough equality between a CR 8 dragon and a 12th-level PC.
Generally, a creature of CR x is balanced against a group of four PCs of level x. Is a single 12th-level character the equal of four 8th-level characters? Not really. Remember, the idea is for the PCs to win, but only by expensing many resources. So by design a CR x creature is going to be WEAKER than four x-level PCs.
At the end of the day CR isn’t a great indicator, but if you don’t want to compare the dragon’s defenses and damage output to actual PC classes to try and figure out what “level” it is (which still disregards non-combat capabilities, but it’s already complicated enough, clearly), CR is all you have to go by.
Xanathar’s Guide to Everything has some tables for matching up CR to character level. By these tables, a CR 8 monster is roughly equivalent to a single PC of 17th-20th level. I think your best starting point would be to look in XGtE (the section on “Encounter Building”).
@SagaTympana:
Although I'm not sure that the corrected math is wrong, does a single lv8 character has a chance against a CR8 Dragon ? I feel like a level 12 might have a chance going solo against a CR8 creature.
If we keep on your bronze dragon, it has 15 hit dice, and they're all d10. So you would need a lv15 character just to get near that health. It has *4* save proficiences, which is pretty much impossible to get outside of playing monk. It has an immunity, which is usually outside of the range of character abilities, as well as permanent blindsight. It has 3 attacks per turn, which equates a fighter lv11, and the damage dice of one of these attacks (bite for 2d10) is outside the range of what is normally possible for a character. Finally, it has permanent flight.
Without magic items, it would also take quite a few ability score improvements to reach these stats. Assuming a human fighter, you could start with 16/9/15/14/13/11, it would take 7.5 Ability Score Improvement to reach these stats, which is level 19. If we forget the charisma and just stick with an 11, that's 4.5 ASI, which takes you to ~12th level (for 4 ASI), or 14th for that final stat point.
Of course the fighter has its own abilities as well, so it's not a case of "the dragon is superior", but I would say lv12 sounds about right actually. I don't think we could make a lv8 character that stands a chance against that dragon.
[EDIT] understandably, a 12 level gap would be not fun for OP. So I would say, either nerf the dragons a bit (HP, saves), buff characters without giving them levels (HP mostly, maybe a few abilities), or a combination of both.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!