Ive used both these changes in one shots and they didn't seem to break anything, but the were higher level oneshots so im curious what everyones thoughts are for theme and balance. Both changes are replacing the 6th level ability.
The first option is simply moving over then potent spell casting from the cleric and adding your INT mod to damaging cantrips.
The second is inverting the Arcane Deflection ability to an extent. Basically giving the caster a +4 bonus to spell attack rolls and a +2 to spell DC until end of turn, usable times equals Half the casters level OR equal to the casters INT mod.
I think those are fine tweaks, whether to incorporate by reward of some kind or direct changes to the subclass.
that being said, I’d like to ask how far you or other players have tried to utilize the feature? I find that it’s more versatile and usable than people usually determine at first glance, but the wording and scaling are tricky.
“Starting at 6th level, you can store magical energy within yourself to later empower your damaging spells.
You can store a maximum number of power surges equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). Whenever you finish a long rest, your number of power surges resets to one. Whenever you successfully end a spell with Dispel magic or Counterspell you gain one powersurge, as you steal magic from the spell you foiled. If you end a short rest with no power surges, you gain one power surge.
Once per turn when you deal damage to a creature or object with a wizard spell, you can spend one power surge to deal extra force damage to that target. The extra damage equals half your wizard level.
-the damage can be used once per turn, meaning it can be used on other creatures turns. This has the same mechanical basis as a rogue gaining the ability to sneak attack on again on another creatures turn. The difference is that because of the nature of some spells, a creature can potentially be subjected to the feature many times during the same round. This requires tactics and teamwork, exactly what a war wizard is about. Probably utilizing an ongoing AOE while concentrating, and subjecting the target to forced movement spells, manueuvers, shoves, or other features.
-while the feature stats off pretty lackluster at level 6, dealing 3 damage 2-3 times a day from various rests, it scales up with level, and eventually deals more damage to a single target than potent spellcasting.
-another factor is that the bonus damage can be added to actual leveled spells, instead of being relegated to just cantrips like potent spellcasting.
-while you can only end one spell with counterspell, dispel magic can end multiple spells with one casting. This is true so long as the spells are all affecting the same target. An example of what my character does is use prestidigitation, bladeward, thaumaturgy, and guidance on myself and then dispel to gain 4 surges at the beginning of the day.
-the biggest factor is the inability to easily see the features ability to scale. Your maximum surges at any given time is your Intelligence mod, which usually won’t be +5 until around level 8-12. This is important and partially in line with going into the Tier 3 of play starting at level 11. At level 10 a wizard has 5 cantrips. Probably 2 damage cantrips, and 3 utility cantrips. If this war wizard prioritizes utility cantrips with nonconcentration lasting effects, and stacks them on one object OR one creature, they can build up individual spells to gain charges from by dispel magic. Rituals can be used to maximize this gain and stretching that level 3 spell slot. So at level 10-12 a war wizard can basically sacrifice their own 3rd level slot to start the day with 5 surges.
-while the surge is single target focused, it is flat bonus damage instead of rerolling like the empowered metamagic. This is important as not only does it similarly increase average damage, but raises the minimum AND Maximum damage potential against a target.
now this may seem exploitative at first glance, but this wizard basically has the ability to split portions of a 3rd level slot into incremental boosts on later spells. This really isn’t even worth the resource investment until around level 12, and may be even less attractive the more combat encounters your party is subjected to. It’s not till level 12 that the damage transfer is comparable to a fireball against a single target, and that’s if you use up all your charges. Definitely burning slots similarly to a sorcerer with spellpoints and empowered spell, just much more complicated to juggle.
ive been playing a war wizard for a little over a year now, and there are definitely strengths and weaknesses to it. Power surge just isn’t as weak as people think, it just takes longer than most people level up to for being useful in a sustainable way.
I realize the level 6 ability isn't a garbage fire, but in alot of games I play in and games I run enemy casters are not common, they are down right rare. We also tend to level VERY slowly after lever 5/6 if its a campaign. The power surge feature does well at much higher levels but when you take months of out of game time to get there it becomes much less appealing. Either of the options ive tried, so long as they balance well make the subclass much more interesting, fun and desirable at lower levels. To add perspective, most of our campaigns have lasted 1-2 years and we don't usually go past level 10. We also usually use the gritty realism options for rests.
Of the 2 options im considering, adding INT mod to cantrips damage or the inverted arcane deflection, do you guys think would be the overall best thematically AND balance-wise?
Well... if you’re never going to get to the point where the feature starts shining and scaling, then yea I think you’re on the right track.
This think the changes should be less impactful on a full design overhaul though. At its heart it’s basically the empowered metamagic feature that’s been adapted to a wizard chassis in a way that doesn’t cause all the sorcerer fans out there to lose their minds...
how about you get INT mod power surge uses a day? Take away the ability to regain charges. -Still half level damage -Still has the ability to boost damage on all spells, not just cantrips.
level 6-7 you’d probably have 4 charges to do an extra 3 force damage on leveled spells when you need them.
level 8-9 you’d probably jump up to 4 damage 5 times a day.
level 10, 5 damage 5 times a day.
powering up a cantrips damage is fine, Especially since the war wizards feature will inhibit it’s casting to cantrips a portion of the time. The problem is that the original limited design effects more powerful leveled spells, which increases the likelihood of you taking a creature out when you need it most. A creature that lives through your onslaught will be more likelihood to trigger your arcane deflection feature and cut off your leveled casting, simply because they still have the opportunity to do so.
if you’re not too averted to a blatant buff, then how about Intelligence Mod to all spells int times a day? It’s definitely stronger at lower levels, but also easier to track and understand.
as far as inverted arcane deflection, the mechanics seems incredibly strong. The closest thing we have to that is the eloquence bards “unsettling words” feature. The mechanics would definitely need to be fleshed out. Especially since the original feature limits your casting to cantrips, so it would rarely be worth using this new feature if the same were true.
My personal thought is that wizards do not need any love what so ever. I don't necessarily think adding potent cantrip is broken, but I think it's un-necessary. Wizards aren't supposed to use cantrips often and they should not be improved.
The arcane deflection change is imo, broken. It's basically a free shield spell.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Yeah I do like the idea of taking away the recharge ability and just making the uses INT times per day and the added danger starting the same. I think I may buff it just a bit by having it do the added damage to all creatures and objects effected by the spell instead of just one. Thoughts on that?
Well, that’s definitely a substantial buff, but it’s one that’s at least being entertained by wizards. One of the class variant unearthed arcana options was one that gave cleric players the choice to switch out potent spellcasting/divine strike for the the blessed strike feature. Blessed strike adds 1d8 radiant damage a weapon attack or any spell, including leveled spells, once until the start of your next turn. Basically once per round.
there seems to be a reluctance for adding base damage to spells as features.
its either limited in its uses per day, how many creatures it can effect at once, how large the avg damage bonus is, or how often it can be proc’ed per round.
After I thought about it I actually decided to not allow power surge to effect multiple creature or objects. I think removing the counterspell/dispel magic recharge feature and giving a the INT bonus usages per long rest is good enough.
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Ive used both these changes in one shots and they didn't seem to break anything, but the were higher level oneshots so im curious what everyones thoughts are for theme and balance. Both changes are replacing the 6th level ability.
The first option is simply moving over then potent spell casting from the cleric and adding your INT mod to damaging cantrips.
The second is inverting the Arcane Deflection ability to an extent. Basically giving the caster a +4 bonus to spell attack rolls and a +2 to spell DC until end of turn, usable times equals Half the casters level OR equal to the casters INT mod.
Thoughts on theme and balance?
Thoughts? Anyone?
I think those are fine tweaks, whether to incorporate by reward of some kind or direct changes to the subclass.
that being said, I’d like to ask how far you or other players have tried to utilize the feature? I find that it’s more versatile and usable than people usually determine at first glance, but the wording and scaling are tricky.
“Starting at 6th level, you can store magical energy within yourself to later empower your damaging spells.
You can store a maximum number of power surges equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). Whenever you finish a long rest, your number of power surges resets to one. Whenever you successfully end a spell with Dispel magic or Counterspell you gain one power surge, as you steal magic from the spell you foiled. If you end a short rest with no power surges, you gain one power surge.
Once per turn when you deal damage to a creature or object with a wizard spell, you can spend one power surge to deal extra force damage to that target. The extra damage equals half your wizard level.
-the damage can be used once per turn, meaning it can be used on other creatures turns. This has the same mechanical basis as a rogue gaining the ability to sneak attack on again on another creatures turn. The difference is that because of the nature of some spells, a creature can potentially be subjected to the feature many times during the same round. This requires tactics and teamwork, exactly what a war wizard is about. Probably utilizing an ongoing AOE while concentrating, and subjecting the target to forced movement spells, manueuvers, shoves, or other features.
-while the feature stats off pretty lackluster at level 6, dealing 3 damage 2-3 times a day from various rests, it scales up with level, and eventually deals more damage to a single target than potent spellcasting.
-another factor is that the bonus damage can be added to actual leveled spells, instead of being relegated to just cantrips like potent spellcasting.
-while you can only end one spell with counterspell, dispel magic can end multiple spells with one casting. This is true so long as the spells are all affecting the same target. An example of what my character does is use prestidigitation, bladeward, thaumaturgy, and guidance on myself and then dispel to gain 4 surges at the beginning of the day.
-the biggest factor is the inability to easily see the features ability to scale. Your maximum surges at any given time is your Intelligence mod, which usually won’t be +5 until around level 8-12. This is important and partially in line with going into the Tier 3 of play starting at level 11. At level 10 a wizard has 5 cantrips. Probably 2 damage cantrips, and 3 utility cantrips. If this war wizard prioritizes utility cantrips with nonconcentration lasting effects, and stacks them on one object OR one creature, they can build up individual spells to gain charges from by dispel magic. Rituals can be used to maximize this gain and stretching that level 3 spell slot. So at level 10-12 a war wizard can basically sacrifice their own 3rd level slot to start the day with 5 surges.
-while the surge is single target focused, it is flat bonus damage instead of rerolling like the empowered metamagic. This is important as not only does it similarly increase average damage, but raises the minimum AND Maximum damage potential against a target.
now this may seem exploitative at first glance, but this wizard basically has the ability to split portions of a 3rd level slot into incremental boosts on later spells. This really isn’t even worth the resource investment until around level 12, and may be even less attractive the more combat encounters your party is subjected to. It’s not till level 12 that the damage transfer is comparable to a fireball against a single target, and that’s if you use up all your charges. Definitely burning slots similarly to a sorcerer with spellpoints and empowered spell, just much more complicated to juggle.
ive been playing a war wizard for a little over a year now, and there are definitely strengths and weaknesses to it. Power surge just isn’t as weak as people think, it just takes longer than most people level up to for being useful in a sustainable way.
I realize the level 6 ability isn't a garbage fire, but in alot of games I play in and games I run enemy casters are not common, they are down right rare. We also tend to level VERY slowly after lever 5/6 if its a campaign. The power surge feature does well at much higher levels but when you take months of out of game time to get there it becomes much less appealing. Either of the options ive tried, so long as they balance well make the subclass much more interesting, fun and desirable at lower levels. To add perspective, most of our campaigns have lasted 1-2 years and we don't usually go past level 10. We also usually use the gritty realism options for rests.
Of the 2 options im considering, adding INT mod to cantrips damage or the inverted arcane deflection, do you guys think would be the overall best thematically AND balance-wise?
Well... if you’re never going to get to the point where the feature starts shining and scaling, then yea I think you’re on the right track.
This think the changes should be less impactful on a full design overhaul though. At its heart it’s basically the empowered metamagic feature that’s been adapted to a wizard chassis in a way that doesn’t cause all the sorcerer fans out there to lose their minds...
how about you get INT mod power surge uses a day? Take away the ability to regain charges.
-Still half level damage
-Still has the ability to boost damage on all spells, not just cantrips.
level 6-7 you’d probably have 4 charges to do an extra 3 force damage on leveled spells when you need them.
level 8-9 you’d probably jump up to 4 damage 5 times a day.
level 10, 5 damage 5 times a day.
powering up a cantrips damage is fine, Especially since the war wizards feature will inhibit it’s casting to cantrips a portion of the time. The problem is that the original limited design effects more powerful leveled spells, which increases the likelihood of you taking a creature out when you need it most. A creature that lives through your onslaught will be more likelihood to trigger your arcane deflection feature and cut off your leveled casting, simply because they still have the opportunity to do so.
if you’re not too averted to a blatant buff, then how about Intelligence Mod to all spells int times a day? It’s definitely stronger at lower levels, but also easier to track and understand.
as far as inverted arcane deflection, the mechanics seems incredibly strong. The closest thing we have to that is the eloquence bards “unsettling words” feature. The mechanics would definitely need to be fleshed out. Especially since the original feature limits your casting to cantrips, so it would rarely be worth using this new feature if the same were true.
My personal thought is that wizards do not need any love what so ever. I don't necessarily think adding potent cantrip is broken, but I think it's un-necessary. Wizards aren't supposed to use cantrips often and they should not be improved.
The arcane deflection change is imo, broken. It's basically a free shield spell.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yeah I do like the idea of taking away the recharge ability and just making the uses INT times per day and the added danger starting the same. I think I may buff it just a bit by having it do the added damage to all creatures and objects effected by the spell instead of just one. Thoughts on that?
Well, that’s definitely a substantial buff, but it’s one that’s at least being entertained by wizards. One of the class variant unearthed arcana options was one that gave cleric players the choice to switch out potent spellcasting/divine strike for the the blessed strike feature. Blessed strike adds 1d8 radiant damage a weapon attack or any spell, including leveled spells, once until the start of your next turn. Basically once per round.
there seems to be a reluctance for adding base damage to spells as features.
its either limited in its uses per day, how many creatures it can effect at once, how large the avg damage bonus is, or how often it can be proc’ed per round.
After I thought about it I actually decided to not allow power surge to effect multiple creature or objects. I think removing the counterspell/dispel magic recharge feature and giving a the INT bonus usages per long rest is good enough.