Just a thought, but could/should these be moved from the Class features to the Race features? As class features, folks who dual class can easily lose the last one of these, and heaven forbid if you triple class!
The fighter and thief could still keep their bonus ability/feats under the class tab, though a multi-class may gain both a class and race upgrade at the same time
A possible side benefit of this would that the max character level could be removed, as characters would not gain extra abilities/feats for each class, just for the character level which has no more after lvl 20. Characters should be able to max out more than one class... especially the longer lived races... an active adventurer could hit level 20 in his primary class in what, 5 to 20 years? So that elf stagnates when he's maybe 150 years old, and learns nothing new before he dies of old age at 700? Horse droppings.
Anyway, as I said, just a thought. Didn't like that a character who takes 3 lvls of barbarian (or any secondary class) so he can have that Path of the (Bear) Totem for the damage resistance while raging has to sacrifice his upper level upgrade, or he can take lvl 4 as barbarian to gain that, but then loses his lvl 17 ability in his primary class... which is usually Very useful (sometimes better than the lvl 20 class ability).
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Moved from Rules & Game Mechanics to Homebrew & House Rules
Of course, this leads to at least two follow-up thoughts: XP and HP
1) If you can go to lvl 20 in many classes, how much experience does each lvl cost?
You could go with primary class as a base, second class a multiple of that, third class even higher.... but that has a serious penalty to those who have a backstop for starting as one class who then changes to his real class... say an assassin/thief who gets converted to a life preserving cleric, or a charlatan bard who sees the light and becomes a paladin for a god of justice...
Rather, I like that the first class to reach a level has the base, and each class after that to reach the same level has progressive multipliers; class 1 = x, class 2 = 2x, class 3 = 3x, and so on, for example... to me, that's a bit steep, though livable... I think I prefer class 1 = x, class 2 = 1.5x, class 3 = 2x, and so on
This way, a character could level up a few levels in one class, then move to what would be his primary class, level up slowly at first but then back to normal once he passed his other class
2) When does a character gain Hit Points? A hit die for each level seems excessive... only for the first class to hit each level? This would be the easiest to implement... a hit die for the first class to hit a level, then 1 HP for each class after to hit the same level? Or maybe a half a hit die for the 2nd class to hit a level, then 1hp for any other classes?
My 'Just a thought' went and spawned other thoughts... sorry about that! :)
A level 20 character, multiclass or singleclass, is basically a god compared to most NPCs. There is no need for overpowering them further by giving them more ASIs and feats, it's a balance thing. Since classes in 5E are so front-heavy, you don't really lose anything by skipping out on a single ASI. Few games even go as far as level 20.
I tend to view ASIs / feats as class features that are common to all classes. A mainclass X, barbarian 3 has a choice of getting the ASI by taking level 4 barb or taking the class features you get with the next level of your your main class.
If ASIs were based on race (i.e. character level) you would need extra class features to get at 4,8,12,16 and 19 otherwise you would gain virtually nothing for achiving these levels (When you reach level 4 you either level up in you main class and get a fewextra hit points or you start to multiclass and get all thefeatures of your new class making sigle class characters very nerfed for afew levels)
I think things are fine just the wayt they are, in your example you have to choose between the level 17 features of your main class and an ASI from Barb 4, if you decides to take a 2 level splash for reckless attack and danger sense you would then have to choose between the primal path features of barbarian 3 and the level 18 feature of or main. Multiclass is always a case of choosing which features you want you can't have everything.
While a lvl 20 character is indeed quite Heroic compared to most NPCs, they aren't even remotely God-like. There are things 'out there' that would snack on even them, like the Kraken or the Tarrasque... and demonic / devilish hordes that want to overrun our realm... maybe I want grow enough so that I can work with my friends to take out these threats
but even if there weren't anything we couldn't handle, or maybe especially if there weren't... you've still ignored my main point... I'm a maxed out character in my prime, with nothing more I can learn in my chosen field and a limited supply of challenges depending on your campaign... what's next? What do I do to pass the time? Or am I put out to pasture?
Or maybe I want to challenge the gods themselves. Tempus is too easy going in his old age, it's time for someone with some drive to take over!
Just because at this point there aren't any published 5e modules for such goals doesn't mean the rules should limit character growth
While a lvl 20 character is indeed quite Heroic compared to most NPCs, they aren't even remotely God-like. There are things 'out there' that would snack on even them, like the Kraken or the Tarrasque... and demonic / devilish hordes that want to overrun our realm... maybe I want grow enough so that I can work with my friends to take out these threats
That's actually funny you bring that up. In another 5E forum out there there is a actually a very long thread about how sucky the Terrasque is and how it can be killed by even low-level characters that can fly. And at lvl 20 you can pretty much take on all those threats mentioned. Just call upon all those kingdoms you've saved, arch-wizards youäve rescued and dragons you befriended and have them help you out.
but even if there weren't anything we couldn't handle, or maybe especially if there weren't... you've still ignored my main point... I'm a maxed out character in my prime, with nothing more I can learn in my chosen field and a limited supply of challenges depending on your campaign... what's next? What do I do to pass the time? Or am I put out to pasture?
No, the questions have been answered. If you chose to not go all the way with one class you lose that class' abilities in exchange for the abilities of your other class(es). I also again refer you to the links posted.
Or maybe I want to challenge the gods themselves. Tempus is too easy going in his old age, it's time for someone with some drive to take over!
Easy enough to do with a high-level party.
Just because at this point there aren't any published 5e modules for such goals doesn't mean the rules should limit character growth
The rules don't, and you have been given advice on how to take characters beyond what's currently printed. But as it stands now D%D 5E is not really mean to be played after level 20, no. Check out the "Tiers of play" secton of the DMM on page 36 if you want more advice. Basically, at lvl 20, youäve gone as far as you can possible go without ascending to something god-like.
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Just a thought, but could/should these be moved from the Class features to the Race features? As class features, folks who dual class can easily lose the last one of these, and heaven forbid if you triple class!
The fighter and thief could still keep their bonus ability/feats under the class tab, though a multi-class may gain both a class and race upgrade at the same time
A possible side benefit of this would that the max character level could be removed, as characters would not gain extra abilities/feats for each class, just for the character level which has no more after lvl 20. Characters should be able to max out more than one class... especially the longer lived races... an active adventurer could hit level 20 in his primary class in what, 5 to 20 years? So that elf stagnates when he's maybe 150 years old, and learns nothing new before he dies of old age at 700? Horse droppings.
Anyway, as I said, just a thought. Didn't like that a character who takes 3 lvls of barbarian (or any secondary class) so he can have that Path of the (Bear) Totem for the damage resistance while raging has to sacrifice his upper level upgrade, or he can take lvl 4 as barbarian to gain that, but then loses his lvl 17 ability in his primary class... which is usually Very useful (sometimes better than the lvl 20 class ability).
Of course, this leads to at least two follow-up thoughts: XP and HP
1) If you can go to lvl 20 in many classes, how much experience does each lvl cost?
You could go with primary class as a base, second class a multiple of that, third class even higher.... but that has a serious penalty to those who have a backstop for starting as one class who then changes to his real class... say an assassin/thief who gets converted to a life preserving cleric, or a charlatan bard who sees the light and becomes a paladin for a god of justice...
Rather, I like that the first class to reach a level has the base, and each class after that to reach the same level has progressive multipliers; class 1 = x, class 2 = 2x, class 3 = 3x, and so on, for example... to me, that's a bit steep, though livable... I think I prefer class 1 = x, class 2 = 1.5x, class 3 = 2x, and so on
This way, a character could level up a few levels in one class, then move to what would be his primary class, level up slowly at first but then back to normal once he passed his other class
2) When does a character gain Hit Points? A hit die for each level seems excessive... only for the first class to hit each level? This would be the easiest to implement... a hit die for the first class to hit a level, then 1 HP for each class after to hit the same level? Or maybe a half a hit die for the 2nd class to hit a level, then 1hp for any other classes?
My 'Just a thought' went and spawned other thoughts... sorry about that! :)
A level 20 character, multiclass or singleclass, is basically a god compared to most NPCs. There is no need for overpowering them further by giving them more ASIs and feats, it's a balance thing. Since classes in 5E are so front-heavy, you don't really lose anything by skipping out on a single ASI. Few games even go as far as level 20.
That said, if you can't stand the thought not being able to play an all-mighty super-power-ninja.warrior-wizard-warlock-assassin, WEBDM has a couple of videos on playing high level characters and gestalt character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDVmJR0gOWg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPljzoR8i5g
I tend to view ASIs / feats as class features that are common to all classes. A mainclass X, barbarian 3 has a choice of getting the ASI by taking level 4 barb or taking the class features you get with the next level of your your main class.
If ASIs were based on race (i.e. character level) you would need extra class features to get at 4,8,12,16 and 19 otherwise you would gain virtually nothing for achiving these levels (When you reach level 4 you either level up in you main class and get a fewextra hit points or you start to multiclass and get all thefeatures of your new class making sigle class characters very nerfed for afew levels)
I think things are fine just the wayt they are, in your example you have to choose between the level 17 features of your main class and an ASI from Barb 4, if you decides to take a 2 level splash for reckless attack and danger sense you would then have to choose between the primal path features of barbarian 3 and the level 18 feature of or main. Multiclass is always a case of choosing which features you want you can't have everything.
While a lvl 20 character is indeed quite Heroic compared to most NPCs, they aren't even remotely God-like. There are things 'out there' that would snack on even them, like the Kraken or the Tarrasque... and demonic / devilish hordes that want to overrun our realm... maybe I want grow enough so that I can work with my friends to take out these threats
but even if there weren't anything we couldn't handle, or maybe especially if there weren't... you've still ignored my main point... I'm a maxed out character in my prime, with nothing more I can learn in my chosen field and a limited supply of challenges depending on your campaign... what's next? What do I do to pass the time? Or am I put out to pasture?
Or maybe I want to challenge the gods themselves. Tempus is too easy going in his old age, it's time for someone with some drive to take over!
Just because at this point there aren't any published 5e modules for such goals doesn't mean the rules should limit character growth
That's actually funny you bring that up. In another 5E forum out there there is a actually a very long thread about how sucky the Terrasque is and how it can be killed by even low-level characters that can fly. And at lvl 20 you can pretty much take on all those threats mentioned. Just call upon all those kingdoms you've saved, arch-wizards youäve rescued and dragons you befriended and have them help you out.
No, the questions have been answered. If you chose to not go all the way with one class you lose that class' abilities in exchange for the abilities of your other class(es). I also again refer you to the links posted.
Easy enough to do with a high-level party.
The rules don't, and you have been given advice on how to take characters beyond what's currently printed. But as it stands now D%D 5E is not really mean to be played after level 20, no. Check out the "Tiers of play" secton of the DMM on page 36 if you want more advice. Basically, at lvl 20, youäve gone as far as you can possible go without ascending to something god-like.