OK - I have a Gnome Fighter/Gunslinger ( yes, black powder weapons are part of my world setting ), with proficiency in Tinkering tools, whose character concept is that of a Fighter/Engineer who is always tinkering with his gear ( he also has a clockwork prosthetic arm, which conveys no mechanical advantage, it's just character flavor ).
Increasingly of late, he's been wanting to invent things. Pretty hefty inventions - although he's perfectly fine with these being long-term goals he's working together, and he doesn't expect to be able to knock out rifle improvements or create a black-powder propelled grappling hook, over a long rest, or anything. He accepts this could be many months of downtime, and level and levels away - he's just having fun playing with the idea.
I also have an Artificer in the Party, so I don't want his tinkering to be stepping on the toes of the Character ( niche protection ).
Does anyone have experience with item invention rules that allow for Player creativity, that wouldn't overshadow the Artificer class?
Alternatively, do you think it would be an option to require a multi-class dip into Artificer for his character to be able to do these things?
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Just figure out the cost of the item he is trying to make, divide by 50. It takes that many work weeks, working 8 hours a day to make that item (and about half its value in raw material).
It's not exactly that cut and dried, I don't think - as we're talking technologically new devices. It's not like I can look up commonality in the DMG and slot in a g.p. value.
Plus they're wanting to create while being a Fighter variant. They're trying to lean on their background / character concept, not any inherent class abilities.
It might not be an issue - I could allow it by DM fiat/whim - if I didn't have an Artificer in the Party, but there should be an element of class niche protection here.
That may or may not be an issue, since the Artificer seems to built around the fusion of magic and technology, while "super Tinkering" as my Player wants to be using it here seems to limited to non-magical technology.
Ideally, any rules I come up with ( or borrow ), should be usable by the Artificer Class for purely non-magical creations, and then they can use their class abilities to fuse them with magic.
I'm a little iffy on all that, since it seems to indicate that any sufficiently intelligent Character should be able to invent anything technological, with a profeciency in Tinkering ( or maybe a Homebrew skill like Invention ? ).
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Just make up the cost of the item he is trying to make, divide by 50. It takes that many work weeks, working 8 hours a day to make that item (and about half its value in raw material).
These are the item crafting rules from XGtE and are meant for any character to be able to use.
And being able to craft items (magical or not) is not a feature unique to the artificer, being able to turn an item into a magical item as part of a long rest is. The artificer is specialized in using tools (to make things), the same way a fighter is specialized in using weapons, but other classes can use tools and weapons.
As long as they have time, tool proficiency (probably tinker tools in this case), and raw material (by GP value), they can craft something.
Also, the DMG and critical role have firearms (not sure if prices are set on them or not).
That occurred to me - it's rather obvious - especially as I've reworked the economics of my campaign world so that "real world" pricing maps to in game pricing. Anything we've created in this world could be cost-mapped to the fantasy world.
However, the RAW rules for creating items are about replicating existing items. What I'm talking about is the invention of new items - which is what the Player wants to do.
Sure - a simple flintlock pistol is part of the optional equipment in the game, and you can scan down the chart suggestions and set what you think is reasonable. In my case, I'd probably tag creating a pistol at 200 g.p. of material, a DC of 12, and 12 days of crafting ( I'm setting some of the sliders off the defaults here; I think 4 days to create flintlock pistol from wood and iron is ludicrously short - having spent more than a little time in a workshop myself ).
How about a black powder grappling hook? Doesn't exist in the game, or my world. Sure - I can equate the roughly to a rifle, and crank out stats as I did for the pistol.
But what that's saying is that the invention is effortless. Takes no time or resources. Whether I'm the first person to ever build a breach loading shotgun, or I have a pattern to work from is exactly the same. Which is patent nonsense ( if you'll pardon the pun ).
I could also say that since it doesn't exist in the world, they can't make one at all. Which is saying that the Characters are categorically incapable of creativity and invention - which is also patent nonsense.
On the flip side, a Tinkerer can't whip up a digital computer, either - there have be reasonable limits imposed on creativity based on what's available in the world.
Crafting isn't the problem here, Inventionis the sticking point here.
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Then have it take more time, and more resources to represent the trial and error of inventing, and require an ability check (most crafting doesn't call for a check).
How you decide to do it is up to you. I'm mostly arguing that any character can craft or invent (usually requiring a tool proficiency), not just artificers.
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Sorry for reviving an old thread haha.. I have been building a Machina Inventor subclass that feels a lot like this. The characters background is a workshop apprentice.
The way that I modeled this (unfortunately due to dnd mechanics) was a wizard subclass with the following limitations (enforced by human eyes only)
- the MI can only learn homebrew "Schematic" spells.
- they learn spells equal to the number of spell slots they have (for non cantrips)
- the schematics require scrap (of reasonable type and amount) that the MI collects by doing things like scrapping old machinery, killing monsters (if there's some chemical or magical component from the monsters body) etc
- the MI has two new skills (scrapping and inventing) that are used if the MI is trying to do either not in their workshop. DC and Outcomes based on DM discretion
- the MI gets to creatively come up with their own schematics based on dm discretion and plot line. Guideline is that power level would be equal to a spell of that schematics level and most items have charges or random negative effects
The goal is to just provide fun flavor at the table. Some items can be shared, some are only used by the inventor because its complex. Some are deployable with hit points.
Examples of inventions are: audio modulator (booming / disguise voice cantrip), tazer (melee shocking spell with charges), a vape pen that provides a random positive or negative boost to a stat for 1 hour (anybody can partake in the toke), and an iron-man like magnetic heart that she will use to save her teacher back home when she finds all the pieces.
Some things may be over powered or useless, but everybody at the table has been having a ton of fun coming up with her next invention during RP. Currently we are thinking of what we can attach to our boat we just acquired.
OK - I have a Gnome Fighter/Gunslinger ( yes, black powder weapons are part of my world setting ), with proficiency in Tinkering tools, whose character concept is that of a Fighter/Engineer who is always tinkering with his gear ( he also has a clockwork prosthetic arm, which conveys no mechanical advantage, it's just character flavor ).
Increasingly of late, he's been wanting to invent things. Pretty hefty inventions - although he's perfectly fine with these being long-term goals he's working together, and he doesn't expect to be able to knock out rifle improvements or create a black-powder propelled grappling hook, over a long rest, or anything. He accepts this could be many months of downtime, and level and levels away - he's just having fun playing with the idea.
I also have an Artificer in the Party, so I don't want his tinkering to be stepping on the toes of the Character ( niche protection ).
Does anyone have experience with item invention rules that allow for Player creativity, that wouldn't overshadow the Artificer class?
Alternatively, do you think it would be an option to require a multi-class dip into Artificer for his character to be able to do these things?
Thanks,
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Just figure out the cost of the item he is trying to make, divide by 50. It takes that many work weeks, working 8 hours a day to make that item (and about half its value in raw material).
It's not exactly that cut and dried, I don't think - as we're talking technologically new devices. It's not like I can look up commonality in the DMG and slot in a g.p. value.
Plus they're wanting to create while being a Fighter variant. They're trying to lean on their background / character concept, not any inherent class abilities.
It might not be an issue - I could allow it by DM fiat/whim - if I didn't have an Artificer in the Party, but there should be an element of class niche protection here.
That may or may not be an issue, since the Artificer seems to built around the fusion of magic and technology, while "super Tinkering" as my Player wants to be using it here seems to limited to non-magical technology.
Ideally, any rules I come up with ( or borrow ), should be usable by the Artificer Class for purely non-magical creations, and then they can use their class abilities to fuse them with magic.
I'm a little iffy on all that, since it seems to indicate that any sufficiently intelligent Character should be able to invent anything technological, with a profeciency in Tinkering ( or maybe a Homebrew skill like Invention ? ).
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
You're over thinking it a bit.
First let me rephrase my original comment:
These are the item crafting rules from XGtE and are meant for any character to be able to use.
And being able to craft items (magical or not) is not a feature unique to the artificer, being able to turn an item into a magical item as part of a long rest is. The artificer is specialized in using tools (to make things), the same way a fighter is specialized in using weapons, but other classes can use tools and weapons.
As long as they have time, tool proficiency (probably tinker tools in this case), and raw material (by GP value), they can craft something.
Also, the DMG and critical role have firearms (not sure if prices are set on them or not).
That occurred to me - it's rather obvious - especially as I've reworked the economics of my campaign world so that "real world" pricing maps to in game pricing. Anything we've created in this world could be cost-mapped to the fantasy world.
However, the RAW rules for creating items are about replicating existing items. What I'm talking about is the invention of new items - which is what the Player wants to do.
Sure - a simple flintlock pistol is part of the optional equipment in the game, and you can scan down the chart suggestions and set what you think is reasonable. In my case, I'd probably tag creating a pistol at 200 g.p. of material, a DC of 12, and 12 days of crafting ( I'm setting some of the sliders off the defaults here; I think 4 days to create flintlock pistol from wood and iron is ludicrously short - having spent more than a little time in a workshop myself ).
How about a black powder grappling hook? Doesn't exist in the game, or my world. Sure - I can equate the roughly to a rifle, and crank out stats as I did for the pistol.
But what that's saying is that the invention is effortless. Takes no time or resources. Whether I'm the first person to ever build a breach loading shotgun, or I have a pattern to work from is exactly the same. Which is patent nonsense ( if you'll pardon the pun ).
I could also say that since it doesn't exist in the world, they can't make one at all. Which is saying that the Characters are categorically incapable of creativity and invention - which is also patent nonsense.
On the flip side, a Tinkerer can't whip up a digital computer, either - there have be reasonable limits imposed on creativity based on what's available in the world.
Crafting isn't the problem here, Invention is the sticking point here.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Then have it take more time, and more resources to represent the trial and error of inventing, and require an ability check (most crafting doesn't call for a check).
How you decide to do it is up to you. I'm mostly arguing that any character can craft or invent (usually requiring a tool proficiency), not just artificers.
Fair enough - and I do appreciate the feedback, thanks :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Sorry for reviving an old thread haha.. I have been building a Machina Inventor subclass that feels a lot like this. The characters background is a workshop apprentice.
The way that I modeled this (unfortunately due to dnd mechanics) was a wizard subclass with the following limitations (enforced by human eyes only)
- the MI can only learn homebrew "Schematic" spells.
- they learn spells equal to the number of spell slots they have (for non cantrips)
- the schematics require scrap (of reasonable type and amount) that the MI collects by doing things like scrapping old machinery, killing monsters (if there's some chemical or magical component from the monsters body) etc
- the MI has two new skills (scrapping and inventing) that are used if the MI is trying to do either not in their workshop. DC and Outcomes based on DM discretion
- the MI gets to creatively come up with their own schematics based on dm discretion and plot line. Guideline is that power level would be equal to a spell of that schematics level and most items have charges or random negative effects
The goal is to just provide fun flavor at the table. Some items can be shared, some are only used by the inventor because its complex. Some are deployable with hit points.
Examples of inventions are: audio modulator (booming / disguise voice cantrip), tazer (melee shocking spell with charges), a vape pen that provides a random positive or negative boost to a stat for 1 hour (anybody can partake in the toke), and an iron-man like magnetic heart that she will use to save her teacher back home when she finds all the pieces.
Some things may be over powered or useless, but everybody at the table has been having a ton of fun coming up with her next invention during RP. Currently we are thinking of what we can attach to our boat we just acquired.