I find that both the normal rules for Initiative and Greyhawk Initiative lack one quality I would like to have in an Initiative system; namely the capacity of a faster character to act a little more often than a slower one. I'm aiming for maybe one extra turn in a short encounter or a couple of them in a longer one.
Racetrack Initiative:
In this system, each round has exactly 20 Initiative Moments. At the beginning of combat, every character rolls Initiative normally (1d20 + Dexterity modifier, accounting for any other adjustment the character receives). A tracker can be used to ease bookkeeping (while it should be enough with one, two can be used too, to represent the present Round and the following one).
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Each combatant is represented by a token. The player or DM puts this token in the appropriate space of the tracker. This will be the Initiative Moments of Round 1. If someone rolled higher than 20, simply substract 20 from the total and put the token above the appropriate space (or to the left, if the track is oriented vertically): they will act in a previous Round, called Round 0. On the other hand, if someone rolled under 1, add 20 to this roll and put the token under the track (or at the right side): they won’t act until Round 2.
When combatants take their turns, their tokens move to the corresponding position on the track for the following Round. When all characters acting in the current Round have done so, move all tokens from the next Round to the tracker, so it becomes the current Round.
When moving a token to the next Round, it goes to the same position by default. Some circumstances can modify this, though (thus making it possible for a fast character to act once or twice more than slower ones in long combat encounters, hence the name Racetrack):
Using a spell as an action means moving further down the Initiative track: For each 3 spell levels rounding up the character goes down one additional Moment. So, if a character acts on Initiative Moment 13 and casts a 4-level spell, next turn this character will act on Initiative Moment 11.
Using a two-handed weapon (or a Versatile weapon with both hands) means moving 1 Initiative Moment further down.
Drinking a Healing Potion as a Bonus Action (if this house rule is used) means moving 2 Initiative Moments further down.
The DM can decide that any big combination of free actions can move the character’s token down 1 Moment.
When using a Multiattack or Additional Attack feature, for each attack the combatants can do but refrain themselves from doing, they would go up 2 Initiative Moments.
When using a single weapon and no shield, if it is a Light weapon or Finesse weapon, the combatant would go up 1 Initiative Moment (2 Moments if it has both properties)
When using two weapons so that the character can make a bonus attack because of dual wielding and doesn’t use it, the combatant would go up 1 Initiative Moment (and bonus Moments if the main weapon is a Light or Finesse weapon, as in the previous paragraph).
When using the Attack action to make only ranged attacks, the combatant moves the token 2 Moments up
Combatants can use a Bonus Action to go up the Initiative Track as many Moments as their Initiative Modifier (minimum 1, maximum 10), as long as they are not subject to any condition that would prevent them from moving at their full speed rate at the beginning of their turn.
When making opportunity attacks, combatants immediately move their tokens 1 Moment down.
Any effect that Makes combatants Prone means immediately moving them 3 Initiative Moments down.
In a Grapple, the grappler can move both their Initiative Moment and the Grappled creature’s down by 5. The grappler’s Initiative goes down for the next action, as usual; whereas the opponent’s token is moved down the tracker immediately.
Pros:
Faster characters would have the chance to act more often than slower ones in some encounters, especially in longer ones.
Some actions would help characters act faster.
Other actions can move the opponent’s Initiative down instead of moving the character’s Initiative up, such as dropping the opponent prone or grappling them.
Calculations are both simple and made immediately after the action is resolved (potentially even as the following combatants take their turns), thus barely slowing combat.
Cons:
It’s a bit more complicated than standard Initiative.
It’s not as unpredictable as Greyhawk Initiative.
If not properly tested it can be unbalanced.
So what do you think? As I said, I'm aiming for a system that rewards quick characters going for more subtle actions by giving them the chance to get an extra action every number of turns, but not too often. I tried to make it easy to track, hence the visual element of the track and tokens.
Also, I wanted these actions to be real choices and not make them too good or too bad. I tried to add possible strategies for improving your Initiative (only yours, against every foe) or diminishing your enemy's (only that enemy, but your allies would share the tactical advantage coming from that).
I included a penalty for drinking a healing potion as a bonus action as a middle ground between the normal rules and this popular house rule, and also for falling prone so tripping your opponent has some actual advantage even in 1v1 combat.
I'm sure that this idea, still untested, has a lot to improve; but I would like to read some opinions about how it looks at this point, in case there are some obvious flaws I oversaw.
This seems like a lot to keep track of for the the DM and the players. I'd worry that this would slow down the combat as you figured out where each person is in the next round. If you want PCs with higher Dex bonuses to go first more often, maybe make the Init modifier twice or three times the Dex bonus. As for getting more than one action in a round, the rules already allow for multi-attacks as players go up levels. Perhaps you might want to add in a multi-action feat or some such.
In terms of the spell casting, moving the PC further back in the initiative can have unintended consequences: spells that last until the caster's next turn suddenly have a longer duration. Also, what happens if a character's initiative place moves below one. Do they not get an action in the current round? As a player, I would find that upsetting.
That said, the point is to make the game enjoyable. If you and your players think this might make combat more interesting, go for it, and see how it works!
This seems like a lot to keep track of for the the DM and the players. I'd worry that this would slow down the combat as you figured out where each person is in the next round. If you want PCs with higher Dex bonuses to go first more often, maybe make the Init modifier twice or three times the Dex bonus. As for getting more than one action in a round, the rules already allow for multi-attacks as players go up levels. Perhaps you might want to add in a multi-action feat or some such.
In terms of the spell casting, moving the PC further back in the initiative can have unintended consequences: spells that last until the caster's next turn suddenly have a longer duration. Also, what happens if a character's initiative place moves below one. Do they not get an action in the current round? As a player, I would find that upsetting.
That said, the point is to make the game enjoyable. If you and your players think this might make combat more interesting, go for it, and see how it works!
First of all, thank you for your feedback
As for your first point, since this system would make use of a physical tracker I don't think it would slow combat that much. It would certainly be more agile than Greyhawk Initiative, at least. That is the point of actions affecting the Initiative Moment of the following turn instead of the current one: the DM puts the token in the corresponding position of the following round while the next player is describing the following character's action. At least, that is how I picture it.
Your concern about spells lasting longer is indeed a valid one, and one that I will try to address. If I can do so without making this system too cumbersome, it might still work.
Your last question about a character completely missing a round makes me think that maybe we are not in the same page about it: picture a combat in which combatants are acting in Initiative Moments 19, 12, 7 and 1 in Round 3. If the character with Initiative 1 uses an action that would mean going down one Moment, they would not act in Round 4 at all, but they would act first in Round 5 unless the combatant in Moment 19 moves up. So, even if this character doesn't technically act in one round it doesn't mean that everyone gets to act twice before this character's next action. In this example only one creature has the chance to do so. Also, if a character is in Moment 20 and goes up in Initiative Moment, their next action would be ad the end of the current round, not at the beginning of the next. In short, there is no difference between one character surpassing another in the middle of the round than in the extremes (and if a character doesn't surpass or gets surpassed by anyone, it doesn't really matter which round they do really act in either).
My main concern (apart from the new one you pointed out about spell durations) is whether some characters would surpass their opponents too easily (so it would be unbalanced) or if it would be too hard (so the system doesn't have the intended effect and I would be better off with normal Initiative.
My main concern (apart from the new one you pointed out about spell durations) is whether some characters would surpass their opponents too easily (so it would be unbalanced) or if it would be too hard (so the system doesn't have the intended effect and I would be better off with normal Initiative.
Again, thank you for your time in responding
yeah like it is very easy to optimize to get an high initiative modifier, as a lot of features and subclasses and spells like the gloom stalker, war wizard, jack of all trades, bardic inspiration, flash of genious, , alert, spells like haste, enhance abillity, gift of alacricy, guidance.
further the system of bonuses for refraining from weapon use can be exploited by an bladesinger who can cast cantrips in favour of spells and by monks who can weild two weapons but use their bonus action for unarmed strikes without loosing potency, it is fantastic for rangers who have to struggle with a lot of potential bonus actions to set up from hunter's mark and to using their pet, it is like one of those tax loopholes rich people use, you gain so much from so little, 3 extra initiative slots every round for not using a scimitar you always have in your offhand? sign me the **** up
wait even worse, you can use an bonus action to just give yourself more time? like a 2nd level variant human war wizard with the alert feat, 16 intelegence and 14 wisdom will already have a +10 initiative modifier and can then over the course of just two rounds use a bonus action to give themselves exactly 1 more round, and then since you have more rounds you also have more rounds to give yourself more rounds to the point where you are taking twice as many turns as anybody else? i am so so sorry for completely breaking your perfectly balanced system i really am
wait it is even worse than that, if you use that special bonus action you are effectively refraining from using your bonus action to attack with a light weapon, like this just keeps getting more and more broken, there is no longer an action economy, it is just harold the 3rd level gloom stalker who is weilding a pair of scimitars and so alert he travels through time at an alarming speed
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
to demonstrate how badly this system can be broken, i bring to thee Jolene, a 8th level variant human fighter. Scientists hate her, learn how she broke time and killled god in just a few easy steps:
-her ranger archetype is hunter, she uses the thrown weapon fighting style, the favored foe optional feature, the colossus slayer option. She has the alertness feat and a dexterity score of 20 thanks to both her abillity score increases.
-each turn she throws two daggers, or one dart and one dagger if she is feeling cheap, all using one hand while the other is holding in a dagger that is never thrown, and she always uses her bonus action to boost her initiative
-this means that each turn her initiative slot will be moved up by 15 spaces, 10 spaces for taking the bonus action, 3 spaces for not using her bonus action to throw her dagger, 2 spaces becuase she used only ranged attacks. If i understand your system correctly this means that she should be taking four turns per round since her next is only 5 rounds away at any time, and with two features letting her deal extra damage once per round and making two attacks that deal 1d4 + 7 damage (same average damage as a longbow) she will be dealing a lot of damage fast, to the point where her damage output will probably be enough for her to singlehandedly slay things way above her challenge rating
here are the rules i used for this little exploit showcase:
When using a Multiattack or Additional Attack feature, for each attack the combatants can do but refrain themselves from doing, they would go up 2 Initiative Moments.
When using a single weapon and no shield, if it is a Light weapon or Finesse weapon, the combatant would go up 1 Initiative Moment (2 Moments if it has both properties)
When using two weapons so that the character can make a bonus attack because of dual wielding and doesn’t use it, the combatant would go up 1 Initiative Moment (and bonus Moments if the main weapon is a Light or Finesse weapon, as in the previous paragraph).
When using the Attack action to make only ranged attacks, the combatant moves the token 2 Moments up
Combatants can use a Bonus Action to go up the Initiative Track as many Moments as their Initiative Modifier (minimum 1, maximum 10), as long as they are not subject to any condition that would prevent them from moving at their full speed rate at the beginning of their turn.
but jolene is not done with her antics just yet, oh no there is something more, something big: she can freeze time (as can almost any martial character with the traits of this build) as long as she has help form a friend, joe the artificer, who is a 9th level character, he can give jolene an infused returning dagger and cast haste on her. When jolene starts her turn she has no dagger in her off hand, she only uses the dagger she is holding in her main hand, and she uses her action to make just one dagger attack, granting her a +6 to initiative (+2 for using only ranged attacks, +2 for using only a light finesse weapon and no shield, +2 for not making a second attack when she could) and she then uses the action granted to make a dagger attack, granting her a +4 to initiative (+2 for using only ranged attacks, +2 for using only a light finesse weapon) and lastly she uses her bonus action to grant herself +10 initiative. This means that she moves up 20 initiative slots in total, so her next turn is on the same initiative slot as her last one, meaning that she can once again use her actions and bonus action in the same way again and again and again and again, making an infinite number of attacks in a finite amount of time
similarly an fighter who is of 11th level who is built in a similar manner to jolene can actiually travel back in time to a place before his current initiative slot, with alert and maximum dexterity and the thrown weapon fighting style can use an action to make one dagger attack, granting him an +8 to initiative, and then use action surge to do the same with his other action and his bonus action to boost initiative, letting him move back 26 initiative slots and thus his next action is before his previous one, this essentially kills him.
and of course an 20th level fighter built with max dex and alertness can make infinite attacks in a turn by using a bonus action to boost initiative and an action to make just a single dagger attack, breaking time exactly as jolene did
so yeah, beware the time-traveling martial character. Generally there is talk of this concept in the game known as "action economy" where basically in dnd the side with the most actions tend to win, it is why fighting 5-6 kobolds can be 10 times more dangerous than a single ogre and why the action surge of the fighter is considered more potent, a system that can reward certain actions with a few more turns and penalizes others with a few less is going to significantly impact the balance of the game as a whole no matter what you do, so make shure that you are careful when designing this system not just for people like myself but to make shure you do not mess too hard with the balance of this game
okay but like if you do not go out of your way to cheese this system and you patch a few teeny tiny exploits this should be fine i think, may need some playtesting
I see. In my head those bonuses from using the bonus action and not using other bonus actions did not stack and I was toying with a couple of ideas like the bonus action adding only half the Initiative modifier or less, or moving down every character's Initiative in an amount depending of the weapon/cantrip damage done; but being this broken, if I ever manage to fix it, it would look very different to this indeed. These adjustments, from the top of my head, still have Jolene moving up 5 Moments per turn, which might be a little much if pretty much everyone else with a non-Dexterity build is moving further down.
I find that both the normal rules for Initiative and Greyhawk Initiative lack one quality I would like to have in an Initiative system; namely the capacity of a faster character to act a little more often than a slower one. I'm aiming for maybe one extra turn in a short encounter or a couple of them in a longer one.
Racetrack Initiative:
In this system, each round has exactly 20 Initiative Moments. At the beginning of combat, every character rolls Initiative normally (1d20 + Dexterity modifier, accounting for any other adjustment the character receives). A tracker can be used to ease bookkeeping (while it should be enough with one, two can be used too, to represent the present Round and the following one).
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Each combatant is represented by a token. The player or DM puts this token in the appropriate space of the tracker. This will be the Initiative Moments of Round 1. If someone rolled higher than 20, simply substract 20 from the total and put the token above the appropriate space (or to the left, if the track is oriented vertically): they will act in a previous Round, called Round 0. On the other hand, if someone rolled under 1, add 20 to this roll and put the token under the track (or at the right side): they won’t act until Round 2.
When combatants take their turns, their tokens move to the corresponding position on the track for the following Round. When all characters acting in the current Round have done so, move all tokens from the next Round to the tracker, so it becomes the current Round.
When moving a token to the next Round, it goes to the same position by default. Some circumstances can modify this, though (thus making it possible for a fast character to act once or twice more than slower ones in long combat encounters, hence the name Racetrack):
Pros:
Cons:
So what do you think? As I said, I'm aiming for a system that rewards quick characters going for more subtle actions by giving them the chance to get an extra action every number of turns, but not too often. I tried to make it easy to track, hence the visual element of the track and tokens.
Also, I wanted these actions to be real choices and not make them too good or too bad. I tried to add possible strategies for improving your Initiative (only yours, against every foe) or diminishing your enemy's (only that enemy, but your allies would share the tactical advantage coming from that).
I included a penalty for drinking a healing potion as a bonus action as a middle ground between the normal rules and this popular house rule, and also for falling prone so tripping your opponent has some actual advantage even in 1v1 combat.
I'm sure that this idea, still untested, has a lot to improve; but I would like to read some opinions about how it looks at this point, in case there are some obvious flaws I oversaw.
This seems like a lot to keep track of for the the DM and the players. I'd worry that this would slow down the combat as you figured out where each person is in the next round. If you want PCs with higher Dex bonuses to go first more often, maybe make the Init modifier twice or three times the Dex bonus. As for getting more than one action in a round, the rules already allow for multi-attacks as players go up levels. Perhaps you might want to add in a multi-action feat or some such.
In terms of the spell casting, moving the PC further back in the initiative can have unintended consequences: spells that last until the caster's next turn suddenly have a longer duration. Also, what happens if a character's initiative place moves below one. Do they not get an action in the current round? As a player, I would find that upsetting.
That said, the point is to make the game enjoyable. If you and your players think this might make combat more interesting, go for it, and see how it works!
First of all, thank you for your feedback
As for your first point, since this system would make use of a physical tracker I don't think it would slow combat that much. It would certainly be more agile than Greyhawk Initiative, at least. That is the point of actions affecting the Initiative Moment of the following turn instead of the current one: the DM puts the token in the corresponding position of the following round while the next player is describing the following character's action. At least, that is how I picture it.
Your concern about spells lasting longer is indeed a valid one, and one that I will try to address. If I can do so without making this system too cumbersome, it might still work.
Your last question about a character completely missing a round makes me think that maybe we are not in the same page about it: picture a combat in which combatants are acting in Initiative Moments 19, 12, 7 and 1 in Round 3. If the character with Initiative 1 uses an action that would mean going down one Moment, they would not act in Round 4 at all, but they would act first in Round 5 unless the combatant in Moment 19 moves up. So, even if this character doesn't technically act in one round it doesn't mean that everyone gets to act twice before this character's next action. In this example only one creature has the chance to do so. Also, if a character is in Moment 20 and goes up in Initiative Moment, their next action would be ad the end of the current round, not at the beginning of the next. In short, there is no difference between one character surpassing another in the middle of the round than in the extremes (and if a character doesn't surpass or gets surpassed by anyone, it doesn't really matter which round they do really act in either).
My main concern (apart from the new one you pointed out about spell durations) is whether some characters would surpass their opponents too easily (so it would be unbalanced) or if it would be too hard (so the system doesn't have the intended effect and I would be better off with normal Initiative.
Again, thank you for your time in responding
yeah like it is very easy to optimize to get an high initiative modifier, as a lot of features and subclasses and spells like the gloom stalker, war wizard, jack of all trades, bardic inspiration, flash of genious, , alert, spells like haste, enhance abillity, gift of alacricy, guidance.
further the system of bonuses for refraining from weapon use can be exploited by an bladesinger who can cast cantrips in favour of spells and by monks who can weild two weapons but use their bonus action for unarmed strikes without loosing potency, it is fantastic for rangers who have to struggle with a lot of potential bonus actions to set up from hunter's mark and to using their pet, it is like one of those tax loopholes rich people use, you gain so much from so little, 3 extra initiative slots every round for not using a scimitar you always have in your offhand? sign me the **** up
wait even worse, you can use an bonus action to just give yourself more time? like a 2nd level variant human war wizard with the alert feat, 16 intelegence and 14 wisdom will already have a +10 initiative modifier and can then over the course of just two rounds use a bonus action to give themselves exactly 1 more round, and then since you have more rounds you also have more rounds to give yourself more rounds to the point where you are taking twice as many turns as anybody else? i am so so sorry for completely breaking your perfectly balanced system i really am
wait it is even worse than that, if you use that special bonus action you are effectively refraining from using your bonus action to attack with a light weapon, like this just keeps getting more and more broken, there is no longer an action economy, it is just harold the 3rd level gloom stalker who is weilding a pair of scimitars and so alert he travels through time at an alarming speed
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
to demonstrate how badly this system can be broken, i bring to thee Jolene, a 8th level variant human fighter. Scientists hate her, learn how she broke time and killled god in just a few easy steps:
-her ranger archetype is hunter, she uses the thrown weapon fighting style, the favored foe optional feature, the colossus slayer option. She has the alertness feat and a dexterity score of 20 thanks to both her abillity score increases.
-each turn she throws two daggers, or one dart and one dagger if she is feeling cheap, all using one hand while the other is holding in a dagger that is never thrown, and she always uses her bonus action to boost her initiative
-this means that each turn her initiative slot will be moved up by 15 spaces, 10 spaces for taking the bonus action, 3 spaces for not using her bonus action to throw her dagger, 2 spaces becuase she used only ranged attacks. If i understand your system correctly this means that she should be taking four turns per round since her next is only 5 rounds away at any time, and with two features letting her deal extra damage once per round and making two attacks that deal 1d4 + 7 damage (same average damage as a longbow) she will be dealing a lot of damage fast, to the point where her damage output will probably be enough for her to singlehandedly slay things way above her challenge rating
here are the rules i used for this little exploit showcase:
but jolene is not done with her antics just yet, oh no there is something more, something big: she can freeze time (as can almost any martial character with the traits of this build) as long as she has help form a friend, joe the artificer, who is a 9th level character, he can give jolene an infused returning dagger and cast haste on her. When jolene starts her turn she has no dagger in her off hand, she only uses the dagger she is holding in her main hand, and she uses her action to make just one dagger attack, granting her a +6 to initiative (+2 for using only ranged attacks, +2 for using only a light finesse weapon and no shield, +2 for not making a second attack when she could) and she then uses the action granted to make a dagger attack, granting her a +4 to initiative (+2 for using only ranged attacks, +2 for using only a light finesse weapon) and lastly she uses her bonus action to grant herself +10 initiative. This means that she moves up 20 initiative slots in total, so her next turn is on the same initiative slot as her last one, meaning that she can once again use her actions and bonus action in the same way again and again and again and again, making an infinite number of attacks in a finite amount of time
similarly an fighter who is of 11th level who is built in a similar manner to jolene can actiually travel back in time to a place before his current initiative slot, with alert and maximum dexterity and the thrown weapon fighting style can use an action to make one dagger attack, granting him an +8 to initiative, and then use action surge to do the same with his other action and his bonus action to boost initiative, letting him move back 26 initiative slots and thus his next action is before his previous one, this essentially kills him.
and of course an 20th level fighter built with max dex and alertness can make infinite attacks in a turn by using a bonus action to boost initiative and an action to make just a single dagger attack, breaking time exactly as jolene did
so yeah, beware the time-traveling martial character. Generally there is talk of this concept in the game known as "action economy" where basically in dnd the side with the most actions tend to win, it is why fighting 5-6 kobolds can be 10 times more dangerous than a single ogre and why the action surge of the fighter is considered more potent, a system that can reward certain actions with a few more turns and penalizes others with a few less is going to significantly impact the balance of the game as a whole no matter what you do, so make shure that you are careful when designing this system not just for people like myself but to make shure you do not mess too hard with the balance of this game
okay but like if you do not go out of your way to cheese this system and you patch a few teeny tiny exploits this should be fine i think, may need some playtesting
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I see. In my head those bonuses from using the bonus action and not using other bonus actions did not stack and I was toying with a couple of ideas like the bonus action adding only half the Initiative modifier or less, or moving down every character's Initiative in an amount depending of the weapon/cantrip damage done; but being this broken, if I ever manage to fix it, it would look very different to this indeed. These adjustments, from the top of my head, still have Jolene moving up 5 Moments per turn, which might be a little much if pretty much everyone else with a non-Dexterity build is moving further down.
Thank you very much for your insight.