i like monks but it seems like how they are built they are forced into a hit and run type scenario for combat.
to my mind if you want hit and run then play a rogue.
when i think of monks i think they should be able to hold there own defensively in combat and the mechanics don't quite support this. so without rewriting the entire basic monk class here are some small adjustments that i think would help the monk not be so squishy and also make make the monk feel more "monkish" in combat.
1) monk weapons get the finesse property - a small change but one that allows defensive duelist feat to work with a longsword. you are already adding dex to your weapon damage so why not?
2) flurry of blows is a part of the attack action instead of a bonus action. it might be a bit strong at lower levels but monks only get weaker as they level up relative to all other classes so this provides a much needed boost at higher levels.
-at lower levels you run out of ki so fast this is not a big deal, but a higher levels when you have more ki it would allow reasonable damage and the ability to dodge at the same time. imagine that! monks doing reasonable damage and having the ability to avoid attacks at the same time!
-to me this exemplifies the speed and agility of a monk and backs it up with proper mechanics
3) deflect missiles also works against melee attacks and is written as follows:
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect a melee or ranged weapon attack. When you are damaged by such an attack the damage you take from the attack is reduced by your proficiency bonus + your monk level. To deflect a melee attack you must be wielding a melee monk weapon. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain all uses on a short or long rest. the rest about throwing back the ranged attack would be the same.
-blocking attacks is probably half of every martial arts combat movie ever made and i am not sure why they made a monk that could deflect a range attack but not a melee attack.
the closest comparison is the battle masters parry ability which would yield almost identical results before level 11. after level 11 this would scale better but monks would need it more.
although not front liners i just think monks should be able hold their own a little better than as they are currently written and i think these tweaks help with that.
1. Adding finesse to monk weapons is probably not the best idea. You already have finesse, it's just not called finesse. The only thing adding finesse to monk weapons does is invite multiclassing to Rogue for sneak attack. Which means you are not leveling in Monk so does not benefit monk. Only multiclass dips. So I think it's fine how it is with no finesse. EDIT: And adding it just to get defensive duelist feat for longsword could be problematic with tables that do not allow Tasha's optional rule for Dedicated Weapon. Longswords are not monk weapons with this.
2. Adding FoB to the attack action doesn't quite follow the way the action economy works. You get extra attack at 5th level. Maybe something like the Hunter Ranger's Colossus Slayer ability would be better. But spending a Ki point to add another attack just doesn't quite flow with how attack actions works. Another alternative would be to give Extra Attack similar to Fighters. So two attacks at 5th, 3 at 11th. I don't think I would add the 4th attack at 20th though.
3. I would be fine with that since it is limited. Not sure if regaining on short rest is too much or not.
i'm a big advocate for #3, i think some sort of expanded "deflect blows" should be a class feature, with the chance to make a melee attack if you reduce the damage to zero
(and Open Hand monks should be able to apply their flurry features to that strike!)
i like monks but it seems like how they are built they are forced into a hit and run type scenario for combat.
to my mind if you want hit and run then play a rogue.
when i think of monks i think they should be able to hold there own defensively in combat and the mechanics don't quite support this. so without rewriting the entire basic monk class here are some small adjustments that i think would help the monk not be so squishy and also make make the monk feel more "monkish" in combat.
Every class is built with a particular fantasy in mind. Monks carry a distinctive eastern...a better word escapes me at the moment, but..."flair". And D&D owes a lot to its feel from pulp literature, adventure serial, the Western as a genre, etc. So the monk being a sort of homage to Wuxia and the Hong Kong action scene (circa 1980s) in general isn't a bad place to put your head. And those fights are never just standing there, holding their own. They're constantly moving. They use furniture and terrain. They improvise, throw, and pick up replacement weapons constantly. They'll even fight with their darn clothes.
That said, monks absolutely can hold their own in combat with Patient Defense. If they want to skirmish and dart about the battlefield, they have Step of the Wind. And when they just want to wail on someone, they have Flurry of Blows. It's all about the cinematic feel. If there's a disconnect, then you might have a different idea in mind. So what to we need to get there?
1) monk weapons get the finesse property - a small change but one that allows defensive duelist feat to work with a longsword. you are already adding dex to your weapon damage so why not?
Honestly, not important. Functionally, they already do via Martial Arts. They just lack the weapon property. Also, as a point of clarification, the longsword isn't a monk weapon. It can be treated as one via an optional rule, but that requires already having proficiency with the longsword. And Defensive Duelist isn't that great as it already competes with so many other things for the monk's reaction, including Evasion.
And as ThriKreenWarrior has already pointed out, this seems more geared towards multiclassing than playing a monk. Because now a rogue can use Sneak Attack with their finesse longsword.
2) flurry of blows is a part of the attack action instead of a bonus action. it might be a bit strong at lower levels but monks only get weaker as they level up relative to all other classes so this provides a much needed boost at higher levels.
-at lower levels you run out of ki so fast this is not a big deal, but a higher levels when you have more ki it would allow reasonable damage and the ability to dodge at the same time. imagine that! monks doing reasonable damage and having the ability to avoid attacks at the same time!
-to me this exemplifies the speed and agility of a monk and backs it up with proper mechanics
This is incredibly strong and is a slap in the face to both Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. All three of these features cost 1 ki point and the monk's bonus action. It also serves as a clear upgrade for the monk's, albeit basic, single unarmed strike with their bonus action. What you're proposing is 1 Ki point for up to 5 attacks, if I'm reading this correctly. And that's at 5th level for up to 5 rounds of combat. That's not "reasonable" damage. No fighter or barbarian can keep up with that.
If you think their ability to deal damage is an issue, let's start with what you think classes should be able to do and see how the monk fails to meet your expectations. Just tacking on numbers is, no offense, sloppy.
3) deflect missiles also works against melee attacks and is written as follows:
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect a melee or ranged weapon attack. When you are damaged by such an attack the damage you take from the attack is reduced by your proficiency bonus + your monk level. To deflect a melee attack you must be wielding a melee monk weapon. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain all uses on a short or long rest. the rest about throwing back the ranged attack would be the same.
-blocking attacks is probably half of every martial arts combat movie ever made and i am not sure why they made a monk that could deflect a range attack but not a melee attack.
the closest comparison is the battle masters parry ability which would yield almost identical results before level 11. after level 11 this would scale better but monks would need it more.
This just looks weird to me. Mechanically, I think this is a mess. Why does the monk need to be wielding a weapon? Can't they just bat an incoming attack away? What about catching a blade between their hands, or even two fingers? Reducing the damage blocked to Proficiency Bonus + Your Monk Level and further limiting it to a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus is just a straight nerf. This is weaker than the default version of the ability, so how does that jive with fixing a perceived shortcoming? Just let it apply to melee attacks, if that's what you want to do.
Aside from making the feature weaker, the only problem I see with this is, if you're expecting them to spend a lot of time on the front lines, then they're going to get a lot of use out of this. And they might not use their other features, like Evasion at 7th level. It might even encourage them to not have a high AC.
###
Interesting, but I think they need some more workshopping before playtesting.
And those fights are never just standing there, holding their own. They're constantly moving. They use furniture and terrain. They improvise, throw, and pick up replacement weapons constantly. They'll even fight with their darn clothes.
2 things stand out to me here.
First, the martial arts movies that inspired the monk totally show monk like martial artists standing their ground, even against multiple opponents with weapons. Some films like Jack Chan's repetoire are more kinetic and use the scenery more, fighting running battles. But there are 100 Bruce Lee style films for every one of the slightly more realistic running fight kind of kung fu films.
And second, you are kind of naming things 5e never really rewards mechanically. I mean, movement is nice to avoid attacks or get into range to attack at a given moment, and there is cover. But improvised weapons are kind of awful in the game, and whether a character has 30ft of movement speed or a million movement speed with the ability to run up a canyon wall and sprint down the wall to punch with all that momentum... they still do the exact same damage.
And as ThriKreenWarrior has already pointed out, this seems more geared towards multiclassing than playing a monk. Because now a rogue can use Sneak Attack with their finesse longsword.
I don't get this. Where is the advantage that this would create for multiclassing? A multiclassed rogue would be doing less sneak attack damage. In fact, they would need a great sword with finesse to break even for the investment, which this wouldn't allow.
The point of that suggested change is to let monks benefit from at least one combat feat.
This is incredibly strong and is a slap in the face to both Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. All three of these features cost 1 ki point and the monk's bonus action. It also serves as a clear upgrade for the monk's, albeit basic, single unarmed strike with their bonus action. What you're proposing is 1 Ki point for up to 5 attacks, if I'm reading this correctly. And that's at 5th level for up to 5 rounds of combat. That's not "reasonable" damage. No fighter or barbarian can keep up with that.
I doubt he meant for martial arts to also be used in conjunction to flurry of blows. That too would probably make more sense as being part of the attack action.
And Im not sure how letting one use patient defense and step of the wind in conjunction with flurry of blows is an insult to those abilities. Seems like promoting them more, since it isn't necessarily a choice limited by action economy so much as resource management.
Also, if a monk spends 5 turns in one combat spamming this hypothetical flurry of blows main attack action, then they don't have any ki left for anything else during the combat. And they risk going into the next combat with no ki whatsoever, or have gone through previous encounters saving their ki. So no, it really isn't that strong at level 5. Not unless the DM just gives consequence free short rests between every encounter.
This just looks weird to me. Mechanically, I think this is a mess. Why does the monk need to be wielding a weapon? Can't they just bat an incoming attack away? What about catching a blade between their hands, or even two fingers? Reducing the damage blocked to Proficiency Bonus + Your Monk Level and further limiting it to a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus is just a straight nerf. This is weaker than the default version of the ability, so how does that jive with fixing a perceived shortcoming? Just let it apply to melee attacks, if that's what you want to do.
Aside from making the feature weaker, the only problem I see with this is, if you're expecting them to spend a lot of time on the front lines, then they're going to get a lot of use out of this. And they might not use their other features, like Evasion at 7th level. It might even encourage them to not have a high AC.
I agree the weapon requirement is odd. And the limited uses also weakens the ability. Just letting apply to melee attacks makes sense.
Monks are martial characters though. With few exceptions, they want to hit things in melee, so it makes sense that they have some ability to stand up and fight. And burning a reaction to block most of a single attack per round is a pretty fair price for using this feature against melee attacks.
Evasion doesn't use a reaction, and deflect missile cannot be used against aoe spells.
I also cannot imagine trying to forgo AC because of this ability. Dex and Wis are still tied to the monk's other abilities, so they will still be incentivized to take those ASI's. And getting to keep one's reaction for opportunity attacks is always better than burning it to potentially just take less damage from a single attack.
Bards and rogues are both martial classes with D8 hit dice, too. So why should the monk be the only one who just stands there and takes it?
Because fighting toe to toe with their enemies is what they do as a melee class. Their abilities depend upon being in range, hit and run isn't that viable, and they aren't that great at ranged fighting.
Also, when did bards become martial classes? They have some martial subclasses, but are still full casters who fight best using magic.
And rogues also want to be up close to deal a ton of damage or can sneak attack at range. They are truly versatile.
From where I sit, a martial class is any class with access to martial weapons. Bards have the rapier, monks have the shortsword, and rogues have both. And monks are just as capable of fighting with a bow or thrown weapons as they can in melee. Why are we pretending they can't? Nobody bats an eye if rogues go back and forth between these two relative positions. So, again, why are monks the exception?
So Druids are a martial class because they can use a scimitar? That is an odd way of parsing class roles.
Martial usually means a class designed to primary fight with weapons. As opposed to caster classes.
Monks can throw a weapon, or shoot a shortbow. Tasha's or being a kensei let them use longbows. But they aren't great ranged combatants. No archery fighting style, no damage bonuses, no class features to really make using a bow even compete with cantrip damage. Kensei is the only subclass that can make it worth while as a speedy damage dealing archer.
Rogues can go between melee and range because they can deal a load of damage with either, all the time, for no resource cost. They are highly effective at both.
So Druids are a martial class because they can use a scimitar? That is an odd way of parsing class roles.
Martial usually means a class designed to primary fight with weapons. As opposed to caster classes.
Monks can throw a weapon, or shoot a shortbow. Tasha's or being a kensei let them use longbows. But they aren't great ranged combatants. No archery fighting style, no damage bonuses, no class features to really make using a bow even compete with cantrip damage. Kensei is the only subclass that can make it worth while as a speedy damage dealing archer.
Rogues can go between melee and range because they can deal a load of damage with either, all the time, for no resource cost. They are highly effective at both.
Yeah Kensei should have just gone full in on the "Monk Archer" route IMO.
I don't get this. Where is the advantage that this would create for multiclassing? A multiclassed rogue would be doing less sneak attack damage. In fact, they would need a great sword with finesse to break even for the investment, which this wouldn't allow.
The point of that suggested change is to let monks benefit from at least one combat feat.
The monk already has default finesse with monk weapons. If all you are concerned about is a feat how about changing the feat to finesse or monk weapons?
The point is a rogue can take 2 levels of monk and with the right race selection for weapon proficiencies (and Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon feature) can use stronger non finesse weapons for sneak attack A 2 Monk/18 Rogue won’t lose much in sneak attack damage but can use a d10 weapon to attack and make a bonus action attack with a d4 unarmed strike or they could still dual wield if they wanted to.
Or vise versa a primary monk with rogue dip can now add sneak attack with non finesse weapons. Picking up a 1d6 or 2d6 sneak attack damage with your martial arts might be worth losing a few Ki depending on how you want to play it.
People have posted threads on monk/rogue multiclassing and are sad to find out they can’t use sneak attack with monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
edit: and going to 5th level monk gets you extra attack which rogues don’t have. And with Tasha’s f you use Ki on your action (shadow monk spell, for example) you can attack with your now finesse monk weapon to get sneak attack on that. So there are possibilities besides a feat
The point is a rogue can take 2 levels of monk and with the right race selection for weapon proficiencies (and Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon feature) can use stronger non finesse weapons for sneak attack
But that isn't a thing. The best they can get for all that theory craft is a d10 weapon at the cost of a d6 of sneak attack damage, meaning they break even at best.
And a d4 bonus attack that they can't get sneak attack off of is pretty low tier. To let you in on a secret, rogues can already dual wield short swords and the offhand attack can still net sneak attack for more damage then this build you are proposing would be somehow problematic.
and a dip into rogue for monk to get 1 or 2d6 sneak attack dice wouldn't be all that powerful either. They can already do so and use a rapier or short sword, and its not some minmaxing strat.
Even extra attack doesn't make all that much of a powerful investment for a rogue, because they are giving up 3d6 sneak attack die for it, whereas you are estimating 1 or 2d6 to be a broken strat.
The point is a rogue can take 2 levels of monk and with the right race selection for weapon proficiencies (and Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon feature) can use stronger non finesse weapons for sneak attack
But that isn't a thing. The best they can get for all that theory craft is a d10 weapon at the cost of a d6 of sneak attack damage, meaning they break even at best.
And a d4 bonus attack that they can't get sneak attack off of is pretty low tier. To let you in on a secret, rogues can already dual wield short swords and the offhand attack can still net sneak attack for more damage then this build you are proposing would be somehow problematic.
and a dip into rogue for monk to get 1 or 2d6 sneak attack dice wouldn't be all that powerful either. They can already do so and use a rapier or short sword, and its not some minmaxing strat.
Even extra attack doesn't make all that much of a powerful investment for a rogue, because they are giving up 3d6 sneak attack die for it, whereas you are estimating 1 or 2d6 to be a broken strat.
I take your point. And optimally speaking you are correct. But players may want to build there characters thematically despite the downsides. How cool would it be playing a shadow monk/rogue and sneak attacking with your quarterstaff or spear, or nunchuck or kama, or other martial arts flavored weapon? Sure, you could do just as well, or better, wielding a rapier, but that doesn't quite fit the feel a player might be going for. And, yes, I understand you could flavor the rapier as a "kung fu" type sword.
And monks are a core class in the PHB and martial arts is a core feature of that class. Defensive Duelist is a feat of an optional ruleset. Why alter a core class feature? Why not alter the optional feat to include finesse or monk weapon? Or melee weapon you use your DEX for attack and damage rolls?
hi all
i like monks but it seems like how they are built they are forced into a hit and run type scenario for combat.
to my mind if you want hit and run then play a rogue.
when i think of monks i think they should be able to hold there own defensively in combat and the mechanics don't quite support this. so without rewriting the entire basic monk class here are some small adjustments that i think would help the monk not be so squishy and also make make the monk feel more "monkish" in combat.
1) monk weapons get the finesse property - a small change but one that allows defensive duelist feat to work with a longsword. you are already adding dex to your weapon damage so why not?
2) flurry of blows is a part of the attack action instead of a bonus action. it might be a bit strong at lower levels but monks only get weaker as they level up relative to all other classes so this provides a much needed boost at higher levels.
-at lower levels you run out of ki so fast this is not a big deal, but a higher levels when you have more ki it would allow reasonable damage and the ability to dodge at the same time. imagine that! monks doing reasonable damage and having the ability to avoid attacks at the same time!
-to me this exemplifies the speed and agility of a monk and backs it up with proper mechanics
3) deflect missiles also works against melee attacks and is written as follows:
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect a melee or ranged weapon attack. When you are damaged by such an attack the damage you take from the attack is reduced by your proficiency bonus + your monk level. To deflect a melee attack you must be wielding a melee monk weapon. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus and regain all uses on a short or long rest. the rest about throwing back the ranged attack would be the same.
-blocking attacks is probably half of every martial arts combat movie ever made and i am not sure why they made a monk that could deflect a range attack but not a melee attack.
the closest comparison is the battle masters parry ability which would yield almost identical results before level 11. after level 11 this would scale better but monks would need it more.
although not front liners i just think monks should be able hold their own a little better than as they are currently written and i think these tweaks help with that.
so what are your thoughts?
Some interesting ideas, but:
1. Adding finesse to monk weapons is probably not the best idea. You already have finesse, it's just not called finesse. The only thing adding finesse to monk weapons does is invite multiclassing to Rogue for sneak attack. Which means you are not leveling in Monk so does not benefit monk. Only multiclass dips. So I think it's fine how it is with no finesse. EDIT: And adding it just to get defensive duelist feat for longsword could be problematic with tables that do not allow Tasha's optional rule for Dedicated Weapon. Longswords are not monk weapons with this.
2. Adding FoB to the attack action doesn't quite follow the way the action economy works. You get extra attack at 5th level. Maybe something like the Hunter Ranger's Colossus Slayer ability would be better. But spending a Ki point to add another attack just doesn't quite flow with how attack actions works. Another alternative would be to give Extra Attack similar to Fighters. So two attacks at 5th, 3 at 11th. I don't think I would add the 4th attack at 20th though.
3. I would be fine with that since it is limited. Not sure if regaining on short rest is too much or not.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
i'm a big advocate for #3, i think some sort of expanded "deflect blows" should be a class feature, with the chance to make a melee attack if you reduce the damage to zero
(and Open Hand monks should be able to apply their flurry features to that strike!)
Every class is built with a particular fantasy in mind. Monks carry a distinctive eastern...a better word escapes me at the moment, but..."flair". And D&D owes a lot to its feel from pulp literature, adventure serial, the Western as a genre, etc. So the monk being a sort of homage to Wuxia and the Hong Kong action scene (circa 1980s) in general isn't a bad place to put your head. And those fights are never just standing there, holding their own. They're constantly moving. They use furniture and terrain. They improvise, throw, and pick up replacement weapons constantly. They'll even fight with their darn clothes.
That said, monks absolutely can hold their own in combat with Patient Defense. If they want to skirmish and dart about the battlefield, they have Step of the Wind. And when they just want to wail on someone, they have Flurry of Blows. It's all about the cinematic feel. If there's a disconnect, then you might have a different idea in mind. So what to we need to get there?
Honestly, not important. Functionally, they already do via Martial Arts. They just lack the weapon property. Also, as a point of clarification, the longsword isn't a monk weapon. It can be treated as one via an optional rule, but that requires already having proficiency with the longsword. And Defensive Duelist isn't that great as it already competes with so many other things for the monk's reaction, including Evasion.
And as ThriKreenWarrior has already pointed out, this seems more geared towards multiclassing than playing a monk. Because now a rogue can use Sneak Attack with their finesse longsword.
This is incredibly strong and is a slap in the face to both Patient Defense and Step of the Wind. All three of these features cost 1 ki point and the monk's bonus action. It also serves as a clear upgrade for the monk's, albeit basic, single unarmed strike with their bonus action. What you're proposing is 1 Ki point for up to 5 attacks, if I'm reading this correctly. And that's at 5th level for up to 5 rounds of combat. That's not "reasonable" damage. No fighter or barbarian can keep up with that.
If you think their ability to deal damage is an issue, let's start with what you think classes should be able to do and see how the monk fails to meet your expectations. Just tacking on numbers is, no offense, sloppy.
This just looks weird to me. Mechanically, I think this is a mess. Why does the monk need to be wielding a weapon? Can't they just bat an incoming attack away? What about catching a blade between their hands, or even two fingers? Reducing the damage blocked to Proficiency Bonus + Your Monk Level and further limiting it to a number of times per day equal to their proficiency bonus is just a straight nerf. This is weaker than the default version of the ability, so how does that jive with fixing a perceived shortcoming? Just let it apply to melee attacks, if that's what you want to do.
Aside from making the feature weaker, the only problem I see with this is, if you're expecting them to spend a lot of time on the front lines, then they're going to get a lot of use out of this. And they might not use their other features, like Evasion at 7th level. It might even encourage them to not have a high AC.
###
Interesting, but I think they need some more workshopping before playtesting.
2 things stand out to me here.
First, the martial arts movies that inspired the monk totally show monk like martial artists standing their ground, even against multiple opponents with weapons. Some films like Jack Chan's repetoire are more kinetic and use the scenery more, fighting running battles. But there are 100 Bruce Lee style films for every one of the slightly more realistic running fight kind of kung fu films.
And second, you are kind of naming things 5e never really rewards mechanically. I mean, movement is nice to avoid attacks or get into range to attack at a given moment, and there is cover. But improvised weapons are kind of awful in the game, and whether a character has 30ft of movement speed or a million movement speed with the ability to run up a canyon wall and sprint down the wall to punch with all that momentum... they still do the exact same damage.
I don't get this. Where is the advantage that this would create for multiclassing? A multiclassed rogue would be doing less sneak attack damage. In fact, they would need a great sword with finesse to break even for the investment, which this wouldn't allow.
The point of that suggested change is to let monks benefit from at least one combat feat.
I doubt he meant for martial arts to also be used in conjunction to flurry of blows. That too would probably make more sense as being part of the attack action.
And Im not sure how letting one use patient defense and step of the wind in conjunction with flurry of blows is an insult to those abilities. Seems like promoting them more, since it isn't necessarily a choice limited by action economy so much as resource management.
Also, if a monk spends 5 turns in one combat spamming this hypothetical flurry of blows main attack action, then they don't have any ki left for anything else during the combat. And they risk going into the next combat with no ki whatsoever, or have gone through previous encounters saving their ki. So no, it really isn't that strong at level 5. Not unless the DM just gives consequence free short rests between every encounter.
I agree the weapon requirement is odd. And the limited uses also weakens the ability. Just letting apply to melee attacks makes sense.
Monks are martial characters though. With few exceptions, they want to hit things in melee, so it makes sense that they have some ability to stand up and fight. And burning a reaction to block most of a single attack per round is a pretty fair price for using this feature against melee attacks.
Evasion doesn't use a reaction, and deflect missile cannot be used against aoe spells.
I also cannot imagine trying to forgo AC because of this ability. Dex and Wis are still tied to the monk's other abilities, so they will still be incentivized to take those ASI's. And getting to keep one's reaction for opportunity attacks is always better than burning it to potentially just take less damage from a single attack.
Bards and rogues are both martial classes with D8 hit dice, too. So why should the monk be the only one who just stands there and takes it?
Because fighting toe to toe with their enemies is what they do as a melee class. Their abilities depend upon being in range, hit and run isn't that viable, and they aren't that great at ranged fighting.
Also, when did bards become martial classes? They have some martial subclasses, but are still full casters who fight best using magic.
And rogues also want to be up close to deal a ton of damage or can sneak attack at range. They are truly versatile.
From where I sit, a martial class is any class with access to martial weapons. Bards have the rapier, monks have the shortsword, and rogues have both. And monks are just as capable of fighting with a bow or thrown weapons as they can in melee. Why are we pretending they can't? Nobody bats an eye if rogues go back and forth between these two relative positions. So, again, why are monks the exception?
So Druids are a martial class because they can use a scimitar? That is an odd way of parsing class roles.
Martial usually means a class designed to primary fight with weapons. As opposed to caster classes.
Monks can throw a weapon, or shoot a shortbow. Tasha's or being a kensei let them use longbows. But they aren't great ranged combatants. No archery fighting style, no damage bonuses, no class features to really make using a bow even compete with cantrip damage. Kensei is the only subclass that can make it worth while as a speedy damage dealing archer.
Rogues can go between melee and range because they can deal a load of damage with either, all the time, for no resource cost. They are highly effective at both.
Yeah Kensei should have just gone full in on the "Monk Archer" route IMO.
@Kronzypants
The monk already has default finesse with monk weapons. If all you are concerned about is a feat how about changing the feat to finesse or monk weapons?
The point is a rogue can take 2 levels of monk and with the right race selection for weapon proficiencies (and Tasha’s Dedicated Weapon feature) can use stronger non finesse weapons for sneak attack A 2 Monk/18 Rogue won’t lose much in sneak attack damage but can use a d10 weapon to attack and make a bonus action attack with a d4 unarmed strike or they could still dual wield if they wanted to.
Or vise versa a primary monk with rogue dip can now add sneak attack with non finesse weapons. Picking up a 1d6 or 2d6 sneak attack damage with your martial arts might be worth losing a few Ki depending on how you want to play it.
People have posted threads on monk/rogue multiclassing and are sad to find out they can’t use sneak attack with monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
edit: and going to 5th level monk gets you extra attack which rogues don’t have. And with Tasha’s f you use Ki on your action (shadow monk spell, for example) you can attack with your now finesse monk weapon to get sneak attack on that. So there are possibilities besides a feat
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
But that isn't a thing. The best they can get for all that theory craft is a d10 weapon at the cost of a d6 of sneak attack damage, meaning they break even at best.
And a d4 bonus attack that they can't get sneak attack off of is pretty low tier. To let you in on a secret, rogues can already dual wield short swords and the offhand attack can still net sneak attack for more damage then this build you are proposing would be somehow problematic.
and a dip into rogue for monk to get 1 or 2d6 sneak attack dice wouldn't be all that powerful either. They can already do so and use a rapier or short sword, and its not some minmaxing strat.
Even extra attack doesn't make all that much of a powerful investment for a rogue, because they are giving up 3d6 sneak attack die for it, whereas you are estimating 1 or 2d6 to be a broken strat.
I take your point. And optimally speaking you are correct. But players may want to build there characters thematically despite the downsides. How cool would it be playing a shadow monk/rogue and sneak attacking with your quarterstaff or spear, or nunchuck or kama, or other martial arts flavored weapon? Sure, you could do just as well, or better, wielding a rapier, but that doesn't quite fit the feel a player might be going for. And, yes, I understand you could flavor the rapier as a "kung fu" type sword.
And monks are a core class in the PHB and martial arts is a core feature of that class. Defensive Duelist is a feat of an optional ruleset. Why alter a core class feature? Why not alter the optional feat to include finesse or monk weapon? Or melee weapon you use your DEX for attack and damage rolls?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?