After the semi-recent UA introducing the OneD&D version of Monk, I felt inspired to create an optional rule to make 5e monks more versatile. One complaint about Monks at large is that they are M.A.D. Additionally, there is the desire by many in the community to have the option to build more of a "brawler" type unarmed fighter (exemplified by the popularity of the Pugilist class as well as the move from Ki->Discipline in the recent UA). For this reason, I tried adapting a change I really liked from the Warlock UA (being able to pick your casting stat) to apply to Monks as well. I feel that Monks, as a martial class, occupy a unique space where it would make sense for them to be able to pick and choose which abilities they are trained in and rely on. For that reason, I have created the optional features Martial Disciplines and Discipline Versatility to expand the possibilities for Monks. This version of the abilities is written with respect to 5e, but I drew inspiration from the UA for some of the language, so I apologize if its confusing at all.
A brief overview of the changes presented with these optional features are:
The ability to choose among Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom as your primary abilities
Free uses per long rest of one of the main three Ki abilities, to help reduce Ki consumption and play into flavor
Replacing the standard class-based saving throw proficiency with one tied to their level 1 ability
Suggested changes for some of the base Monk features to accommodate these optional features.
While these features dont "solve" the M.A.D issue of Monks, I think they at least make the player feel as though they have some agency in deciding which abilities they will be tied to. Please let me know what you think
Martial Disciplines
1st-level Monk feature, replaces base saving throws for the class and modifies other features
At 1st level, you choose one of the following traditions to adopt for your martial arts. Each tradition lists two ability scores. You choose one to act as your Martial Ability Score and the other to act as your Discipline Ability Score. Certain features you obtain in this class will refer to each of these scores.
Discipline of Aggression. Select from Strength and Dexterity to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities.
Starting at 2nd level, you can use Flurry of Blows without expending ki points a number of times equal to your Discipline Ability Score modifier. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Discipline of Conviction. Select from Strength and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities.
Starting at 2nd level, you can use Step of the Wind without expending ki points a number of times equal to your Discipline Ability Score modifier. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Discipline of Tolerance. Select from Dexterity and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features. You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities.
Starting at 2nd level, you can use Patient Defense without expending ki points a number of times equal to your Discipline Ability Score modifier. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Each time you gain a level in this class, you can switch which ability score from your chosen discipline is acting as your Martial Ability Score and which is acting as your Discipline Ability Score.
Discipline Versatility
9th & 15th-level Monk feature
Starting at 9th level, each time you complete a long rest you can switch which ability score from your chosen discipline is acting as your Martial Ability Score and which is acting as your Discipline Ability Score.
At 15th level, you can switch your scores this way each time you finish either a short or long rest.
Changes to Base Monk Features
Unarmored Defense: Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Martial Ability Score modifier + your Discipline Ability Score modifier.
Martial Arts: The first bullet point is replaced with: “You use your Martial Ability Score for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.”
Ki: your Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Discipline Ability Score modifier
Deflect Missiles: Damage reduced is equal to 1d10+ your Martial Ability Score modifier + your monk level
Multiclassing Rules
Multiclassing Saving Throw Proficiency. When you take a level in monk while you already have levels in another class, you do not gain the saving throw proficiencies listed in the Martial Disciplines feature
Roleplay
How to role play the different disciplines. The Martial Ability Score is meant to reflect where the monk physically draws power from to attack. In this way, Strength and Dexterity are fairly self explanatory, whereas Wisdom could be explained in a few ways. It could reflect an observant fighter whose “power” is drawn from striking at a weak point with careful timing. It could also be reflected as physically manifesting the monk’s spirit to empower their attacks. Whichever route is followed for flavoring this ability, using Wisdom as your Martial Ability Score does not inherently impart any magical benefits to your attacks.
The Discipline Ability Score is meant to reflect the practice and focus which has gone into honing a monk’s skill. In this way, Wisdom could represent the monk’s memory drawing on its teachings in battle or could reflect the ability to extend the monk’s spirit to affect others through the application of ki. Strength or Dexterity, on the other hand, could simply represent the monk reflexively relying on muscle memory.
Depending on other aspects of your character such as which subclass you choose, your race, or any feats/multiclassing, the explanations for your Martial and Discipline Ability Scores could take on a plethora of meanings and flavors.
So...the original post complains about Monks being multiple-ability dependent, but...none of this changes any of that whatsoever. You still derive your martial arts/unarmoured defense from two different stats; you just add a layer of needless complexity by being able to pick whichever stat gives you your attack/damage bonus and which affects your save DCs.
I already addressed that in the original post: "While these features dont "solve" the M.A.D issue of Monks, I think they at least make the player feel as though they have some agency in deciding which abilities they will be tied to."
And I continue to be baffled with why some people are obsessed with wanting Strength to be a vital stat for the Monk, despite Dexterity and Wisdom being much more useful stats overall in terms of saving throws, but the obsession with Strength Monks is abundantly clear when the idea here links getting free-uses of the most commonly used feature, Flurry of Blows, solely to the Strength/Dexterity combo—and just as tellingly, links the least-used option to the original Dexterity/Wisdom combo.
I definitely disagree that Patient Defense is the "least used" option from among the base Ki abilities, but maybe you play Monk differently than I do. In any case, each one is chosen to mix well thematically. If you are Str and Dex focused, presumably you are very athletic and can throw a bunch of hard punches very quickly, hence Flurry of Blows. If you are Dex and Wis focused, presumably you have quick reflexes and can have a strong read on your opponent, hence Patient Defense. Str and Wis was the strangest mix of the bunch, but I still think the Str focus could be tied thematically to the improved ability to jump granted by Step of the Wind. I could see the argument to maybe make Flurry of Blows tied to Str & Wis instead of Str & Dex to try and balance your choices more evenly, but thats another discussion.
So, in short: entirely pointless idea that's very unsubtle about its favoritism.
I dont really know how to respond to this other than to say boiling it down this way really makes alot of assumptions about my viewpoint and preferences.
In short: Your feedback has not been constructive or helpful in the slightest and is frankly rude in its assumptions about my own goals in writing this
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Lilith just thinks monks are perfect the way they are and any attempt to change them or have an opinion contrary to their perfect-ness just infuriates them. Any change automatically makes you a min-maxer munchkin.
I never got back to your original input ThriKreen. One argument I have for keeping the unorthodox version of saving throws with this feature is that, at least to me, it feels a little odd if you had a Str & Dex focused Monk who had a Wisdom proficiency -or- a Str & Wis focused Monk who had a Dexterity proficiency, you know?
Anyway, I am open to ideas for changes. Id kinda like the 1st level portion of the feature to award some other ability, but since this is an extra ability anyway I could also see not needing to add much beyond the customization aspect it already provides. Do you have any input on what boon could be tagged on to make it feel less empty if I were to remove the saving throw proficienices? Obviously nothing too strong is needed, maybe just a single extra skill proficiency or something?
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I only thought to leave saving throws alone as classes typically have proficiency in one “major” save (CON, DEX, Wis) and one “minor” save (INT, CHA, STR). Having proficiency in two major like Discipline of Tolerance does, might be too much.
As for an added ability I’m not sure. Getting free uses of something is pretty good to start with. Not sure what to add on that wouldn’t be too powerful or make one Discipline better than the others.
As for an added ability I’m not sure. Getting free uses of something is pretty good to start with. Not sure what to add on that wouldn’t be too powerful or make one Discipline better than the others.
I think that the free uses are already a great addition for the ability as a whole, the only issue is they cannot come online until level 2, which leaves the feature kinda bare bones at level 1 as just "pick your main abilities". But to be honest, the more I think about it, maybe thats all that the ability really needs to be at level 1. I think for now I will remove the saving throw stuff just to streamline it a bit more and not mess with system standards too hard.
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Lilith just thinks monks are perfect the way they are and any attempt to change them or have an opinion contrary to their perfect-ness just infuriates them. Any change automatically makes you a min-maxer munchkin.
Preach kreen. as for kaboom Hey man I applaud you for trying to think of something new and mixing stuff up. I always like more options it allows for more player choices.
Conceptually cool with good flavor. I like the free uses of core monk features. Anything to help with low ki is great. Might be a bit complex though. How could you simplify?
Conceptually cool with good flavor. I like the free uses of core monk features. Anything to help with low ki is great. Might be a bit complex though. How could you simplify?
It could be simplified by removing the option to switch your scores' role and thereby remove the Discipline Versatility feature altogether. Beyond that, any further simplification would probably remove any core benefit that was sought to be added.
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Conceptually cool with good flavor. I like the free uses of core monk features. Anything to help with low ki is great. Might be a bit complex though. How could you simplify?
It could be simplified by removing the option to switch your scores' role and thereby remove the Discipline Versatility feature altogether. Beyond that, any further simplification would probably remove any core benefit that was sought to be added.
Would you do discipline of aggression with strength and consititution? Might fit the theme a bit better then strength plus dex.
The only other thing i can see is that unarmored AC in 5e always has dex as a part of the calculation so discipline of conviction is kind of an exception to the rule. There are plenty of "use one ability score modifier in place of another" type features in 5e so i am fine with it but i think its worth mentioning.
Conceptually cool with good flavor. I like the free uses of core monk features. Anything to help with low ki is great. Might be a bit complex though. How could you simplify?
It could be simplified by removing the option to switch your scores' role and thereby remove the Discipline Versatility feature altogether. Beyond that, any further simplification would probably remove any core benefit that was sought to be added.
Would you do discipline of aggression with strength and consititution? Might fit the theme a bit better then strength plus dex.
The only other thing i can see is that unarmored AC in 5e always has dex as a part of the calculation so discipline of conviction is kind of an exception to the rule. There are plenty of "use one ability score modifier in place of another" type features in 5e so i am fine with it but i think its worth mentioning.
Otherwise nice job.
Thanks. Personally I would rather keep the three options floating around Str, Dex, and Wis rather than having one outlier that allows for using Con while none of the others have that option. The AC stuff is definitely a bit odd with certain options, but Im sure there are creative ways to justify Str modifying your ability to take or dodge a hit.
I really appreciate the feedback
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After the semi-recent UA introducing the OneD&D version of Monk, I felt inspired to create an optional rule to make 5e monks more versatile. One complaint about Monks at large is that they are M.A.D. Additionally, there is the desire by many in the community to have the option to build more of a "brawler" type unarmed fighter (exemplified by the popularity of the Pugilist class as well as the move from Ki->Discipline in the recent UA). For this reason, I tried adapting a change I really liked from the Warlock UA (being able to pick your casting stat) to apply to Monks as well. I feel that Monks, as a martial class, occupy a unique space where it would make sense for them to be able to pick and choose which abilities they are trained in and rely on. For that reason, I have created the optional features Martial Disciplines and Discipline Versatility to expand the possibilities for Monks. This version of the abilities is written with respect to 5e, but I drew inspiration from the UA for some of the language, so I apologize if its confusing at all.
A brief overview of the changes presented with these optional features are:
While these features dont "solve" the M.A.D issue of Monks, I think they at least make the player feel as though they have some agency in deciding which abilities they will be tied to. Please let me know what you think
Martial Disciplines
1st-level Monk feature, replaces base saving throws for the class and modifies other features
At 1st level, you choose one of the following traditions to adopt for your martial arts. Each tradition lists two ability scores. You choose one to act as your Martial Ability Score and the other to act as your Discipline Ability Score. Certain features you obtain in this class will refer to each of these scores.
Discipline of Aggression. Select from Strength and Dexterity to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features.
You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities.Starting at 2nd level, you can use Flurry of Blows without expending ki points a number of times equal to your Discipline Ability Score modifier. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Discipline of Conviction. Select from Strength and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features.
You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities.Starting at 2nd level, you can use Step of the Wind without expending ki points a number of times equal to your Discipline Ability Score modifier. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Discipline of Tolerance. Select from Dexterity and Wisdom to act as your primary ability scores for this class' features.
You gain proficiency in saving throws for each of these abilities.Starting at 2nd level, you can use Patient Defense without expending ki points a number of times equal to your Discipline Ability Score modifier. You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Each time you gain a level in this class, you can switch which ability score from your chosen discipline is acting as your Martial Ability Score and which is acting as your Discipline Ability Score.
Discipline Versatility
9th & 15th-level Monk feature
Starting at 9th level, each time you complete a long rest you can switch which ability score from your chosen discipline is acting as your Martial Ability Score and which is acting as your Discipline Ability Score.
At 15th level, you can switch your scores this way each time you finish either a short or long rest.
Changes to Base Monk Features
Unarmored Defense: Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Martial Ability Score modifier + your Discipline Ability Score modifier.
Martial Arts: The first bullet point is replaced with: “You use your Martial Ability Score for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.”
Ki: your Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Discipline Ability Score modifier
Deflect Missiles: Damage reduced is equal to 1d10+ your Martial Ability Score modifier + your monk level
Multiclassing RulesMulticlassing Saving Throw Proficiency. When you take a level in monk while you already have levels in another class, you do not gain the saving throw proficiencies listed in the Martial Disciplines featureRoleplay
How to role play the different disciplines. The Martial Ability Score is meant to reflect where the monk physically draws power from to attack. In this way, Strength and Dexterity are fairly self explanatory, whereas Wisdom could be explained in a few ways. It could reflect an observant fighter whose “power” is drawn from striking at a weak point with careful timing. It could also be reflected as physically manifesting the monk’s spirit to empower their attacks. Whichever route is followed for flavoring this ability, using Wisdom as your Martial Ability Score does not inherently impart any magical benefits to your attacks.
The Discipline Ability Score is meant to reflect the practice and focus which has gone into honing a monk’s skill. In this way, Wisdom could represent the monk’s memory drawing on its teachings in battle or could reflect the ability to extend the monk’s spirit to affect others through the application of ki. Strength or Dexterity, on the other hand, could simply represent the monk reflexively relying on muscle memory.
Depending on other aspects of your character such as which subclass you choose, your race, or any feats/multiclassing, the explanations for your Martial and Discipline Ability Scores could take on a plethora of meanings and flavors.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Its an interesting idea but I think I would leave the saving throws out if it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I already addressed that in the original post: "While these features dont "solve" the M.A.D issue of Monks, I think they at least make the player feel as though they have some agency in deciding which abilities they will be tied to."
I definitely disagree that Patient Defense is the "least used" option from among the base Ki abilities, but maybe you play Monk differently than I do. In any case, each one is chosen to mix well thematically. If you are Str and Dex focused, presumably you are very athletic and can throw a bunch of hard punches very quickly, hence Flurry of Blows. If you are Dex and Wis focused, presumably you have quick reflexes and can have a strong read on your opponent, hence Patient Defense. Str and Wis was the strangest mix of the bunch, but I still think the Str focus could be tied thematically to the improved ability to jump granted by Step of the Wind. I could see the argument to maybe make Flurry of Blows tied to Str & Wis instead of Str & Dex to try and balance your choices more evenly, but thats another discussion.
I dont really know how to respond to this other than to say boiling it down this way really makes alot of assumptions about my viewpoint and preferences.
In short: Your feedback has not been constructive or helpful in the slightest and is frankly rude in its assumptions about my own goals in writing this
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Lilith just thinks monks are perfect the way they are and any attempt to change them or have an opinion contrary to their perfect-ness just infuriates them. Any change automatically makes you a min-maxer munchkin.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I never got back to your original input ThriKreen. One argument I have for keeping the unorthodox version of saving throws with this feature is that, at least to me, it feels a little odd if you had a Str & Dex focused Monk who had a Wisdom proficiency -or- a Str & Wis focused Monk who had a Dexterity proficiency, you know?
Anyway, I am open to ideas for changes. Id kinda like the 1st level portion of the feature to award some other ability, but since this is an extra ability anyway I could also see not needing to add much beyond the customization aspect it already provides. Do you have any input on what boon could be tagged on to make it feel less empty if I were to remove the saving throw proficienices? Obviously nothing too strong is needed, maybe just a single extra skill proficiency or something?
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I only thought to leave saving throws alone as classes typically have proficiency in one “major” save (CON, DEX, Wis) and one “minor” save (INT, CHA, STR). Having proficiency in two major like Discipline of Tolerance does, might be too much.
As for an added ability I’m not sure. Getting free uses of something is pretty good to start with. Not sure what to add on that wouldn’t be too powerful or make one Discipline better than the others.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think that the free uses are already a great addition for the ability as a whole, the only issue is they cannot come online until level 2, which leaves the feature kinda bare bones at level 1 as just "pick your main abilities". But to be honest, the more I think about it, maybe thats all that the ability really needs to be at level 1. I think for now I will remove the saving throw stuff just to streamline it a bit more and not mess with system standards too hard.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Preach kreen. as for kaboom Hey man I applaud you for trying to think of something new and mixing stuff up. I always like more options it allows for more player choices.
Conceptually cool with good flavor. I like the free uses of core monk features. Anything to help with low ki is great. Might be a bit complex though. How could you simplify?
It could be simplified by removing the option to switch your scores' role and thereby remove the Discipline Versatility feature altogether. Beyond that, any further simplification would probably remove any core benefit that was sought to be added.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Would you do discipline of aggression with strength and consititution? Might fit the theme a bit better then strength plus dex.
The only other thing i can see is that unarmored AC in 5e always has dex as a part of the calculation so discipline of conviction is kind of an exception to the rule. There are plenty of "use one ability score modifier in place of another" type features in 5e so i am fine with it but i think its worth mentioning.
Otherwise nice job.
Thanks. Personally I would rather keep the three options floating around Str, Dex, and Wis rather than having one outlier that allows for using Con while none of the others have that option. The AC stuff is definitely a bit odd with certain options, but Im sure there are creative ways to justify Str modifying your ability to take or dodge a hit.
I really appreciate the feedback
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!