Tavern Brawler - how essential is this for an unarmed Monk (+ Grappler)?
The push effect & slight damage boost from rerolling 1s helps get most out of something you are doing multiple times each turn.
On the other hand, grappling with the Grappler feat seems more potent option (protecting allies, gaining advantage, etc.). But grapple could fail, so Push as backup? I have little experience with forced movement in combat.
I guess it seems like something I'd only take on a Monk, but that doesn't make it better than other options, like Alert or Tough, etc. And it also has a third of its feature wasted on a Monk, since the damage dice boost is lower than the default Monk's.
I have neither of those on my monk, and don't miss them. (I'm also playing an elements monk, so the push is redundant.) I might take Grappler at some point, but it's not a priority.
Nice to have, but not essential, is where I'd put it.
Tavern Brawler has the following Features:
Enhanced Unarmed Strike: Really only going to be useful for situations where the Monk cannot use Martial Arts, which will be few and far between. If the Monk has multiclassed into a class with an Armor Proficiency and is wearing armor for some reason, but is also unarmed, may be marginally useful.
Damage Rerolls: A minor bonus to damage that goes from +0.42 to +0.46 average damage per hit as the Martial Arts Die Increases.. It's a nice feature to use when it happens, but it's going to happen less and less (and matter less) as your Martial Arts Die increases.
Improvised Weaponry: A very situational use, especially for a Monk. Occasions where a Monk needs to use an improvised weapon rather than an Unarmed Strike or a Monk Wean seem like they'd be quite rare. Though I guess, if an object does get ruled as analogous to a Monk Weapon, that might let you use the Martial Arts Die.
Push: If you're doing the hit-and-run thing, this can be a free Disengage on an Action Attack against a Foe that has only a 5' Reach. It's more likely to work than the Unarmed Strikes / Push option (Attacks seem more likely to hit than Saving Throws are to fail) but once you get more than one Attack, you have to start taking into account whether pushing the target potentially out of your reach prior to your second Action attack is something you want to do. At least the '24 Monk can use Flurry of Blows or Bonus Action Unarmed Strike before their Action on each turn.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
I had assumed to take Grappler at level 4 to make the most out of being Monk, since it makes it part of an attack and gives you Advantage on attacks against them.
But maybe I don’t need to do that even. My subclass is Mercy, which arguably adds the least to grappling than other Monk subclasses. But it still seems good in general. Just harder to land a grapple in 2024 rules though.
I had assumed to take Grappler at level 4 to make the most out of being Monk, since it makes it part of an attack and gives you Advantage on attacks against them.
But maybe I don’t need to do that even. My subclass is Mercy, which arguably adds the least to grappling than other Monk subclasses. But it still seems good in general. Just harder to land a grapple in 2024 rules though.
One of the things Monks excel at is mobility, and grappling works counter to that strength.
Also, fundamentally, nothing is necessary for any class.* You can take a feat if it works with your personal play style, but all the classes are functional without any of them. If you find yourself wanting to do a lot of grappling, take Grappler. My monk moves around a lot and does a lot of push-pull with elemental attunement, so Grappler isn't so appealing. (Even with the ranged grapple that element monks can do.)
* You'll find a lot of people on the internet who talk about how you must take feat X to use strategy Y because that makes your DPS the largest. And yes, they may be correct in that this will let you do the absolute most damage under the conditions they assume. But that's not an approach that's necessary to enjoy D&D.
Edit: The origin feat that may be most useful for monks is Tough. You will be mixing it up in melee, and you will be getting hit. If your party is low on front-line fighters, you may want the extra resilience. But again, it's dependent on how you play and how you conceive your character.
I had assumed to take Grappler at level 4 to make the most out of being Monk, since it makes it part of an attack and gives you Advantage on attacks against them.
But maybe I don’t need to do that even. My subclass is Mercy, which arguably adds the least to grappling than other Monk subclasses. But it still seems good in general. Just harder to land a grapple in 2024 rules though.
One of the things Monks excel at is mobility, and grappling works counter to that strength.
Also, fundamentally, nothing is necessary for any class.* You can take a feat if it works with your personal play style, but all the classes are functional without any of them. If you find yourself wanting to do a lot of grappling, take Grappler. My monk moves around a lot and does a lot of push-pull with elemental attunement, so Grappler isn't so appealing. (Even with the ranged grapple that element monks can do.)
Yeah I was considering exactly the grappling vs. mobility tension. But it may be more complementary, giving options, especially since the Monk can zip their grappled foe somewhere else.
Newer to D&D, so still learning my play style. I think for this build I am attracted to both the mobility/ability to land multiple hits, but also support via debuffs like Mercy's auto-poison, Stunning Strike, and potentially grappling. Including yanking allies to safety if needed.
Grappler feat delivers that. Tavern Brawler doesn't add much. 2/4 pieces are redundant for Monks, a class oriented around unarmed strikes. TB should provide a little something if the character already has equal or greater unarmed strike damage. A little boost to grapple DC (even +1) would make sense to me, especially since there seems little to help boost that.
One way to make Tavern Brawler more appealing to monks (and it will require homebrew) is just replacing the Enhance Unarmed Strike benefit with a +1 to an ability score (Strength or Dexterity come to mind, but you can slip Constitution in as an option as well).
One way to make Tavern Brawler more appealing to monks (and it will require homebrew) is just replacing the Enhance Unarmed Strike benefit with a +1 to an ability score (Strength or Dexterity come to mind, but you can slip Constitution in as an option as well).
That is EXACTLY the other idea I had in mind. For Monks that are quite MAD, that would feel yuuuuuge. And seem fairly logical.
One way to make Tavern Brawler more appealing to monks (and it will require homebrew) is just replacing the Enhance Unarmed Strike benefit with a +1 to an ability score (Strength or Dexterity come to mind, but you can slip Constitution in as an option as well).
Origin feats don't give stat bonuses. If some do, a lot of characters will gravitate to those, because a stat bump is really quite good compared to what many of the other feats get you. Which is fine: origin feats exist to give minor differentiation to what the characters can do at the start of the game. (I'm of the opinion that there aren't enough of them, and they should be more freely selectable, but that's another discussion.)
Also, it's OK if Tavern Brawler isn't great for monks. It doesn't have to be -- plenty of the other origin feats are fine, depending on what sort of character your monk is.
One way to make Tavern Brawler more appealing to monks (and it will require homebrew) is just replacing the Enhance Unarmed Strike benefit with a +1 to an ability score (Strength or Dexterity come to mind, but you can slip Constitution in as an option as well).
Origin feats don't give stat bonuses. If some do, a lot of characters will gravitate to those, because a stat bump is really quite good compared to what many of the other feats get you. Which is fine: origin feats exist to give minor differentiation to what the characters can do at the start of the game. (I'm of the opinion that there aren't enough of them, and they should be more freely selectable, but that's another discussion.)
Also, it's OK if Tavern Brawler isn't great for monks. It doesn't have to be -- plenty of the other origin feats are fine, depending on what sort of character your monk is.
I totally see that - in most cases, Origin Feats should not grant stat bonuses. I also agree not all feats should be good for all builds definitely.
It just seems Tavern Brawler is precisely for unarmed builds. But those are pretty few, and one of the better options, Monk, already has 2 out of TB's 4 features. So it makes this seem too niche to me. I'd say a feat that is not generally useful (like Alert, Lucky, etc.) should be as useful or more in the cases it applies. So some kind of failsafe like a slight bonus to Grapple DC and/or +1 to a physical ability if your character already has one of the components seems a reasonable homebrew to me. But YMMV of course.
I think tavern brawler is aimed at NOT-Monks. Fighters, Barbarians and other rough types with bad upbringings who fight in pubs when they get drunk. Monks are masters of self discipline so not quite the exact match for that so I am quite OK with it not being a perfect marriage for a monk. I've seen a lot of Jackie Chan movies where he uses all sorts of objects as shields and weapons in fight scenes so I can see how it helps with the improv fight situations that breakout when you're not prepped.
Good thoughts. I think what makes me feel keen to make this work well is the relative feat/ASI scarcity for anything not fighters. As an origin feat, yeah it doesn’t give any stat boost, so its benefits need to really be beneficial. Especially for MAD classes like Monks.
I guess it just seems weird to have a feat that we are saying is only really solid for two classes, and then only if you use them a very particular way (unarmed). Because most other origin feats simply have clearer, less-contingent benefits, seems like a hyper-specific feat like TB needs better tuning to make sense.
Also the TB origin feat unarmed damage of d4 instead of 1 is wasted on a character that has the unarmed fighting style, where it is a d6 or d8 ... same same isn't it.
Not every ability/feat etc fits all cases. A monk looking at a non monk crashing about a pub with the TB feat may look upon them as misguided fools who have not the patience to study the true path, a poor cousin so to speak. They probably don't get all fomo about not maxxing things up with the TB feat as they have largely surpassed those skills.
If you normally drive in F1 for ferarri you don't get too jealous when someone has nice skills in a toyota corolla do ya? Monks already got unarmed combat down and sorted.
To answer the thread, it is not imperative for the monk to have Tavern Brawler, but it is what is most convenient.
A more attractive “homebrew” solution for monks is this:
Tavern Brawler (homebrew)
Accustomed to brawling, you gain the following benefits:
Enhanced Unarmed Strike. Instead of the normal damage, when you hit with your Unarmed Strike, you can choose to deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage instead of the normal damage, or add +1 bludgeoning damage if the normal damage is already 1d4 or higher.
Damage Rerolls. Whenever you roll a damage die for your Unarmed Strike, you can reroll the die if it rolls a 1, and you must use the new roll.
Shove. When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack Actionon your turn, you can deal damage to the target and also push it 5 feet away. You can use this benefit only once per turn.
Furniture as Weapons. You can wield furniture as a Weapon, using the rules of the Great Club for Small or Medium furniture and the rules of the Club for Tiny furniture.
Although I prefer that they simply increase the number of backgrounds and origin feats. It would also be interesting to have something also targeted more on certain classes. I must say that there is still little choice, I don't want to end up being a pirate monk all the time.
Tavern Brawler - how essential is this for an unarmed Monk (+ Grappler)?
The push effect & slight damage boost from rerolling 1s helps get most out of something you are doing multiple times each turn.
On the other hand, grappling with the Grappler feat seems more potent option (protecting allies, gaining advantage, etc.). But grapple could fail, so Push as backup? I have little experience with forced movement in combat.
I guess it seems like something I'd only take on a Monk, but that doesn't make it better than other options, like Alert or Tough, etc. And it also has a third of its feature wasted on a Monk, since the damage dice boost is lower than the default Monk's.
Dunno. Thoughts?
I have been away from the game for a bit, but Tavern Brawler is definitely a must. Grappling? Meh. It doesn't impress me. There was something else that I thought was good for the Mon, but I can't remember it. I think it may have been a feat that gave it an extra attack? I don't remember Tough. Alert stinks in 2024. I would have taken it in 2014's version.
Also the TB origin feat unarmed damage of d4 instead of 1 is wasted on a character that has the unarmed fighting style, where it is a d6 or d8 ... same same isn't it.
The monk uses it's Monk die for damage along with and I believe Dex in lieu of Str to modify damage. I haven't looked at the game or character in awhile, but I believe I tested that to be factual. We probably discussed this on previous threads.
Tavern Brawler - how essential is this for an unarmed Monk (+ Grappler)?
The push effect & slight damage boost from rerolling 1s helps get most out of something you are doing multiple times each turn.
On the other hand, grappling with the Grappler feat seems more potent option (protecting allies, gaining advantage, etc.). But grapple could fail, so Push as backup? I have little experience with forced movement in combat.
I guess it seems like something I'd only take on a Monk, but that doesn't make it better than other options, like Alert or Tough, etc. And it also has a third of its feature wasted on a Monk, since the damage dice boost is lower than the default Monk's.
Dunno. Thoughts?
I have been away from the game for a bit, but Tavern Brawler is definitely a must. Grappling? Meh. It doesn't impress me. There was something else that I thought was good for the Mon, but I can't remember it. I think it may have been a feat that gave it an extra attack? I don't remember Tough. Alert stinks in 2024. I would have taken it in 2014's version.
A must? I don't think it's that extreme. Being able to shove once per turn without having to lose an attack is convenient, but the new subclasses already offer some ways to attack and disengage. Clearly the situation might come up that you would like to have an alternative, but it is redundant and not an absolute necessity. Being able to re-roll the damage if the martial die roll is 1 is convenient but also not imperative. So, convenient, yes, but not mandatory.
Grappling is a monk's style of play and does not necessarily appeal to everyone. However, it should be noted that the monk stands out in this type of combat by having advantages, such as being able to use dexterity instead of strength for grappling tests on an opponent and its move capacity that it can have while having a hold on an opponent, in which case having a bottomless cliff nearby would be very convenient.
Tavern Brawler - how essential is this for an unarmed Monk (+ Grappler)?
The push effect & slight damage boost from rerolling 1s helps get most out of something you are doing multiple times each turn.
On the other hand, grappling with the Grappler feat seems more potent option (protecting allies, gaining advantage, etc.). But grapple could fail, so Push as backup? I have little experience with forced movement in combat.
I guess it seems like something I'd only take on a Monk, but that doesn't make it better than other options, like Alert or Tough, etc. And it also has a third of its feature wasted on a Monk, since the damage dice boost is lower than the default Monk's.
Dunno. Thoughts?
I have been away from the game for a bit, but Tavern Brawler is definitely a must. Grappling? Meh. It doesn't impress me. There was something else that I thought was good for the Mon, but I can't remember it. I think it may have been a feat that gave it an extra attack? I don't remember Tough. Alert stinks in 2024. I would have taken it in 2014's version.
A must? I don't think it's that extreme. Being able to shove once per turn without having to lose an attack is convenient, but the new subclasses already offer some ways to attack and disengage. Clearly the situation might come up that you would like to have an alternative, but it is redundant and not an absolute necessity. Being able to re-roll the damage if the martial die roll is 1 is convenient but also not imperative. So, convenient, yes, but not mandatory.
Grappling is a monk's style of play and does not necessarily appeal to everyone. However, it should be noted that the monk stands out in this type of combat by having advantages, such as being able to use dexterity instead of strength for grappling tests on an opponent and its move capacity that it can have while having a hold on an opponent, in which case having a bottomless cliff nearby would be very convenient.
Yeah I think from discussion on this thread, I'm feeling less and less like I need to take it, even if I take Grappler as a feat. Without homebrewing TB, it is just too redundant and weak to pick over the other origin feats, IMHO. Also for gameplay, re-rolling dice every attack for small gain kind of jams the flow a bit.
It's the Grappler feat that does what I really want. And as a Mercy Monk, I will have plenty of non-grappling things to do that feel good anyway.
It just feels goofy to have such a hyper-specific origin feat that really only helps 3 classes - IF you build them unarmed - and for one of them is partially redundant anyway.
Tavern Brawler - how essential is this for an unarmed Monk (+ Grappler)?
The push effect & slight damage boost from rerolling 1s helps get most out of something you are doing multiple times each turn.
On the other hand, grappling with the Grappler feat seems more potent option (protecting allies, gaining advantage, etc.). But grapple could fail, so Push as backup? I have little experience with forced movement in combat.
I guess it seems like something I'd only take on a Monk, but that doesn't make it better than other options, like Alert or Tough, etc. And it also has a third of its feature wasted on a Monk, since the damage dice boost is lower than the default Monk's.
Dunno. Thoughts?
I have been away from the game for a bit, but Tavern Brawler is definitely a must. Grappling? Meh. It doesn't impress me. There was something else that I thought was good for the Mon, but I can't remember it. I think it may have been a feat that gave it an extra attack? I don't remember Tough. Alert stinks in 2024. I would have taken it in 2014's version.
A must? I don't think it's that extreme. Being able to shove once per turn without having to lose an attack is convenient, but the new subclasses already offer some ways to attack and disengage. Clearly the situation might come up that you would like to have an alternative, but it is redundant and not an absolute necessity. Being able to re-roll the damage if the martial die roll is 1 is convenient but also not imperative. So, convenient, yes, but not mandatory.
Grappling is a monk's style of play and does not necessarily appeal to everyone. However, it should be noted that the monk stands out in this type of combat by having advantages, such as being able to use dexterity instead of strength for grappling tests on an opponent and its move capacity that it can have while having a hold on an opponent, in which case having a bottomless cliff nearby would be very convenient.
To each his own. If you roll a one then the the average of your next roll is going to be 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 and finally 6.5, plus modifiers and multiple attacks. Adding Savage Attacker to roll one of your weapon damage dice twice is a good supplemental for damage. Although I don't think you can take another origin Feat. For my Shadow Monk, Skulker is also a must have due to Blindsight. 👍
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Tavern Brawler - how essential is this for an unarmed Monk (+ Grappler)?
The push effect & slight damage boost from rerolling 1s helps get most out of something you are doing multiple times each turn.
On the other hand, grappling with the Grappler feat seems more potent option (protecting allies, gaining advantage, etc.). But grapple could fail, so Push as backup? I have little experience with forced movement in combat.
I guess it seems like something I'd only take on a Monk, but that doesn't make it better than other options, like Alert or Tough, etc. And it also has a third of its feature wasted on a Monk, since the damage dice boost is lower than the default Monk's.
Dunno. Thoughts?
I have neither of those on my monk, and don't miss them. (I'm also playing an elements monk, so the push is redundant.) I might take Grappler at some point, but it's not a priority.
Nice to have, but not essential, is where I'd put it.
Tavern Brawler has the following Features:
Enhanced Unarmed Strike: Really only going to be useful for situations where the Monk cannot use Martial Arts, which will be few and far between. If the Monk has multiclassed into a class with an Armor Proficiency and is wearing armor for some reason, but is also unarmed, may be marginally useful.
Damage Rerolls: A minor bonus to damage that goes from +0.42 to +0.46 average damage per hit as the Martial Arts Die Increases.. It's a nice feature to use when it happens, but it's going to happen less and less (and matter less) as your Martial Arts Die increases.
Improvised Weaponry: A very situational use, especially for a Monk. Occasions where a Monk needs to use an improvised weapon rather than an Unarmed Strike or a Monk Wean seem like they'd be quite rare. Though I guess, if an object does get ruled as analogous to a Monk Weapon, that might let you use the Martial Arts Die.
Push: If you're doing the hit-and-run thing, this can be a free Disengage on an Action Attack against a Foe that has only a 5' Reach. It's more likely to work than the Unarmed Strikes / Push option (Attacks seem more likely to hit than Saving Throws are to fail) but once you get more than one Attack, you have to start taking into account whether pushing the target potentially out of your reach prior to your second Action attack is something you want to do. At least the '24 Monk can use Flurry of Blows or Bonus Action Unarmed Strike before their Action on each turn.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Good to know.
I had assumed to take Grappler at level 4 to make the most out of being Monk, since it makes it part of an attack and gives you Advantage on attacks against them.
But maybe I don’t need to do that even. My subclass is Mercy, which arguably adds the least to grappling than other Monk subclasses. But it still seems good in general. Just harder to land a grapple in 2024 rules though.
One of the things Monks excel at is mobility, and grappling works counter to that strength.
Also, fundamentally, nothing is necessary for any class.* You can take a feat if it works with your personal play style, but all the classes are functional without any of them. If you find yourself wanting to do a lot of grappling, take Grappler. My monk moves around a lot and does a lot of push-pull with elemental attunement, so Grappler isn't so appealing. (Even with the ranged grapple that element monks can do.)
* You'll find a lot of people on the internet who talk about how you must take feat X to use strategy Y because that makes your DPS the largest. And yes, they may be correct in that this will let you do the absolute most damage under the conditions they assume. But that's not an approach that's necessary to enjoy D&D.
Edit: The origin feat that may be most useful for monks is Tough. You will be mixing it up in melee, and you will be getting hit. If your party is low on front-line fighters, you may want the extra resilience. But again, it's dependent on how you play and how you conceive your character.
Yeah I was considering exactly the grappling vs. mobility tension. But it may be more complementary, giving options, especially since the Monk can zip their grappled foe somewhere else.
Newer to D&D, so still learning my play style. I think for this build I am attracted to both the mobility/ability to land multiple hits, but also support via debuffs like Mercy's auto-poison, Stunning Strike, and potentially grappling. Including yanking allies to safety if needed.
Grappler feat delivers that. Tavern Brawler doesn't add much. 2/4 pieces are redundant for Monks, a class oriented around unarmed strikes. TB should provide a little something if the character already has equal or greater unarmed strike damage. A little boost to grapple DC (even +1) would make sense to me, especially since there seems little to help boost that.
One way to make Tavern Brawler more appealing to monks (and it will require homebrew) is just replacing the Enhance Unarmed Strike benefit with a +1 to an ability score (Strength or Dexterity come to mind, but you can slip Constitution in as an option as well).
That is EXACTLY the other idea I had in mind. For Monks that are quite MAD, that would feel yuuuuuge. And seem fairly logical.
Origin feats don't give stat bonuses. If some do, a lot of characters will gravitate to those, because a stat bump is really quite good compared to what many of the other feats get you. Which is fine: origin feats exist to give minor differentiation to what the characters can do at the start of the game. (I'm of the opinion that there aren't enough of them, and they should be more freely selectable, but that's another discussion.)
Also, it's OK if Tavern Brawler isn't great for monks. It doesn't have to be -- plenty of the other origin feats are fine, depending on what sort of character your monk is.
I totally see that - in most cases, Origin Feats should not grant stat bonuses. I also agree not all feats should be good for all builds definitely.
It just seems Tavern Brawler is precisely for unarmed builds. But those are pretty few, and one of the better options, Monk, already has 2 out of TB's 4 features. So it makes this seem too niche to me. I'd say a feat that is not generally useful (like Alert, Lucky, etc.) should be as useful or more in the cases it applies. So some kind of failsafe like a slight bonus to Grapple DC and/or +1 to a physical ability if your character already has one of the components seems a reasonable homebrew to me. But YMMV of course.
I know that. In this case, the feat just wouldn't be an Origin feat anymore.
I think tavern brawler is aimed at NOT-Monks. Fighters, Barbarians and other rough types with bad upbringings who fight in pubs when they get drunk. Monks are masters of self discipline so not quite the exact match for that so I am quite OK with it not being a perfect marriage for a monk. I've seen a lot of Jackie Chan movies where he uses all sorts of objects as shields and weapons in fight scenes so I can see how it helps with the improv fight situations that breakout when you're not prepped.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
Good thoughts. I think what makes me feel keen to make this work well is the relative feat/ASI scarcity for anything not fighters. As an origin feat, yeah it doesn’t give any stat boost, so its benefits need to really be beneficial. Especially for MAD classes like Monks.
I guess it just seems weird to have a feat that we are saying is only really solid for two classes, and then only if you use them a very particular way (unarmed). Because most other origin feats simply have clearer, less-contingent benefits, seems like a hyper-specific feat like TB needs better tuning to make sense.
Also the TB origin feat unarmed damage of d4 instead of 1 is wasted on a character that has the unarmed fighting style, where it is a d6 or d8 ... same same isn't it.
Not every ability/feat etc fits all cases. A monk looking at a non monk crashing about a pub with the TB feat may look upon them as misguided fools who have not the patience to study the true path, a poor cousin so to speak. They probably don't get all fomo about not maxxing things up with the TB feat as they have largely surpassed those skills.
If you normally drive in F1 for ferarri you don't get too jealous when someone has nice skills in a toyota corolla do ya? Monks already got unarmed combat down and sorted.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
To answer the thread, it is not imperative for the monk to have Tavern Brawler, but it is what is most convenient.
A more attractive “homebrew” solution for monks is this:
Tavern Brawler (homebrew)
Accustomed to brawling, you gain the following benefits:
Although I prefer that they simply increase the number of backgrounds and origin feats. It would also be interesting to have something also targeted more on certain classes. I must say that there is still little choice, I don't want to end up being a pirate monk all the time.
I have been away from the game for a bit, but Tavern Brawler is definitely a must. Grappling? Meh. It doesn't impress me. There was something else that I thought was good for the Mon, but I can't remember it. I think it may have been a feat that gave it an extra attack? I don't remember Tough. Alert stinks in 2024. I would have taken it in 2014's version.
The monk uses it's Monk die for damage along with and I believe Dex in lieu of Str to modify damage. I haven't looked at the game or character in awhile, but I believe I tested that to be factual. We probably discussed this on previous threads.
A must? I don't think it's that extreme. Being able to shove once per turn without having to lose an attack is convenient, but the new subclasses already offer some ways to attack and disengage. Clearly the situation might come up that you would like to have an alternative, but it is redundant and not an absolute necessity. Being able to re-roll the damage if the martial die roll is 1 is convenient but also not imperative. So, convenient, yes, but not mandatory.
Grappling is a monk's style of play and does not necessarily appeal to everyone. However, it should be noted that the monk stands out in this type of combat by having advantages, such as being able to use dexterity instead of strength for grappling tests on an opponent and its move capacity that it can have while having a hold on an opponent, in which case having a bottomless cliff nearby would be very convenient.
Yeah I think from discussion on this thread, I'm feeling less and less like I need to take it, even if I take Grappler as a feat. Without homebrewing TB, it is just too redundant and weak to pick over the other origin feats, IMHO. Also for gameplay, re-rolling dice every attack for small gain kind of jams the flow a bit.
It's the Grappler feat that does what I really want. And as a Mercy Monk, I will have plenty of non-grappling things to do that feel good anyway.
It just feels goofy to have such a hyper-specific origin feat that really only helps 3 classes - IF you build them unarmed - and for one of them is partially redundant anyway.
To each his own. If you roll a one then the the average of your next roll is going to be 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 and finally 6.5, plus modifiers and multiple attacks. Adding Savage Attacker to roll one of your weapon damage dice twice is a good supplemental for damage. Although I don't think you can take another origin Feat. For my Shadow Monk, Skulker is also a must have due to Blindsight. 👍