I've seen the worst of this community. I saw a post on reddit of a dm wanting to remove a depressed player claiming they're ruining the game by being depressed, essentially calling them a problem player and even removing them from the game despite the player's insistence otherwise. Seeing some of the replies saying the dm made a good decision made me lose some hope for the community in a sense. I believe this person's actions were unnecessarily cruel and unwarranted, there was no need to remove this person but rather provide a space where they can feel welcome to just say what's on their mind and for him to be acknowledged not told they're ruining the mood. At some point one has to differentiate person and game and i argue this is one of those times. Not finding this balance is almost lethal i'd argue for either the game or your friendship with a person who is struggling. I've also realized that players seemingly are expected to be held to a flawless standard, any "toxic" trait they may possess is to be not only made note of but sometimes they should even be kicked for having such a trait instead of maybe finding the root cause and eliminating it. Some dms dont want to have to deal with that but i think that when you make a game or table, not extending a helping hand claiming "its too draining" is just disrespectful in my opinion. For some that may just be a display of boundaries however. My main point was i hate the idea that dms usually have a lot of support whereas players lack in that same regard. This because whenever i search for example "struggling as a player dnd" there's usually more posts about struggling with what to do with a problem player than there is of an actual player experiencing struggles. When i was a player and had problems, what i needed most was to find someone in the same shoes but all i found was posts about dms kicking out their problem players or anything of the sort. That lack of support is what led to the negative consequences that followed for me, my post however was mostly about calling out those who are elitists and self righteous in the community believing any player having any negative trait makes them a liability to be removed. So many responded saying this doesn't happen im just projecting etc etc which honestly left me speechless. Even going as far as to ask me what my struggles were (for justification purposes?) as well as the exact posts because if i dont have them im projecting. Hands down has to be the worst experience on the internet probably ever, my opinion was never stated to be an objective truth but rather a subjective experience.
I decided to turn to here to discuss what i initially posted in my reddit post, this time hopefully with some more civil responses and not personal attacks.
As a general opening note, Reddit is a bit of a cesspool, so take anything you read there with a grain of salt.
Moving in to the meat of the thread. I want to preface this post to briefly explain my perspective - not as an appeal to authority or such, but because in conversations about mental health, it helps to understand folks’ perspectives. I am an attorney who, among other things, practices in the field of mental health, medical ethics, and child welfare. While I do not hold a degree in a medical or mental health profession, I have years of working in the field and an ethical obligation to keep sufficiently appraised of the field to advise my clients and speak with authority on the subject as well as have sufficient knowledge to undermine a counter-expert in the field if necessary.
D&D can be therapeutic - it is a great way to explore one’s own personality, what one might want their personality to be, or one’s issues they don’t feel comfortable discussing except when in the shoes of another. There even is recent research on using D&D as a mechanism to host group therapy sessions, with a psychologist serving as the dungeon master - essentially an adult version of play therapy.
However, unless in the right hands, D&D is not really therapy. Many, perhaps most, DMs and other players are simply not qualified to engage in that kind of quasi-therapeutic gameplay. It is possible they could even do more harm than good with their inexperienced attempts to handle one player’s mental health.
The DM also has a responsibility to their other players. If one player is making the game worse for everyone, that is not fair to the majority of players. And that can very well happen when someone is using D&D as a therapeutic tool - they might hog the spotlight, trigger other people’s mental health issues, or simply not mesh with the vibe of the other party members.
Whether it is the DM feeling uncomfortable with the subject matter or the way the other players might handle it, the DM being concerned there might be more harm than good, or the player creating a situation where the rest of the players are suffering a worse game experience, there are plenty of reasons one might ask such a player to leave. That should be done in a respectful, polite manner, with a focus on harm reduction - for there inevitably will be some fallout. That also means making sure the person is okay after, particularly if they are suffering serious issues and might be a harm to themselves or other. And one certainly should not be the kind of tool who brags about it on Reddit.
That, of course, is not the only option - you could continue to play with the person if you think it will work out. That is what I tend to do - and it always feels nice when one of my close friends tells me the D&D game I DM helps them work through things.
But your post seems to imply that you think “gut it out for the sake of your friend” is the only acceptable option. The right option is whatever the DM and other players feel comfortable with. If they can play with the player, keep from doing more harm, and keep their enjoyment, power to them. But, if they cannot? Then asking the player to leave (provided it is handled in a sensitive way) might be best for all involved, including the player suffering from mental health issues.
what a breath of fresh air and a wonderful perspective and i definitely agree with reddit being a cesspool. Dnd is, well, not a placeholder for actual therapy and cannot replace proper help from mental health professionals. I know because im studying to become a psychologist, however dnd can be as you say therapeutic. I guess that was one of the reasons it really stuck to me as i was struggling when i first got introduced to it which opened up a whole new world for me. I dont wish to discuss all that happened to me but rather address the post i saw. I may have been speaking too quickly and made it seem like a dm has to put up with anyone and anything, this isn't what i meant. A dm has their limits of course but what i meant was that its best to differentiate player and person. When that fails, i feel like it opens the door to some real nasty behavior like from what i saw in this post. The dm stating they will ignore their cries for attention and overall came off as an emotionally distant person tells me the dm already had a negative opinion of this person prior to the incident or lacks the necessary sympathy to understand. To me, this situation was escalated by the dm in a way that was totally preventable had he not outright said he will ignore his player's pleads and the player could have also in turn tried to cooperate more.
However, one thing that may be controversial is that if a player is struggling privately that doesn't and shouldn't automatically translate to "problem player" in the game. Sure, this person was going through a rough breakup which made him less "enthusiastic" but to label them a problem for clearly having been very affected is wrong and cold. It'd be better to have said that this person should take a break and get the help he needs while offering support from the sidelines (albeit optional if you are willing to provide support). Thanks for not bashing me at least, that's way more than all those people combined who responded to me in my original post over on reddit. Im glad people like you are able to provide a solid perspective without feeling personally attacked or resorting to personal attacks in this community.
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I've seen the worst of this community. I saw a post on reddit of a dm wanting to remove a depressed player claiming they're ruining the game by being depressed, essentially calling them a problem player and even removing them from the game despite the player's insistence otherwise. Seeing some of the replies saying the dm made a good decision made me lose some hope for the community in a sense. I believe this person's actions were unnecessarily cruel and unwarranted, there was no need to remove this person but rather provide a space where they can feel welcome to just say what's on their mind and for him to be acknowledged not told they're ruining the mood. At some point one has to differentiate person and game and i argue this is one of those times. Not finding this balance is almost lethal i'd argue for either the game or your friendship with a person who is struggling. I've also realized that players seemingly are expected to be held to a flawless standard, any "toxic" trait they may possess is to be not only made note of but sometimes they should even be kicked for having such a trait instead of maybe finding the root cause and eliminating it. Some dms dont want to have to deal with that but i think that when you make a game or table, not extending a helping hand claiming "its too draining" is just disrespectful in my opinion. For some that may just be a display of boundaries however. My main point was i hate the idea that dms usually have a lot of support whereas players lack in that same regard. This because whenever i search for example "struggling as a player dnd" there's usually more posts about struggling with what to do with a problem player than there is of an actual player experiencing struggles. When i was a player and had problems, what i needed most was to find someone in the same shoes but all i found was posts about dms kicking out their problem players or anything of the sort. That lack of support is what led to the negative consequences that followed for me, my post however was mostly about calling out those who are elitists and self righteous in the community believing any player having any negative trait makes them a liability to be removed. So many responded saying this doesn't happen im just projecting etc etc which honestly left me speechless. Even going as far as to ask me what my struggles were (for justification purposes?) as well as the exact posts because if i dont have them im projecting. Hands down has to be the worst experience on the internet probably ever, my opinion was never stated to be an objective truth but rather a subjective experience.
I decided to turn to here to discuss what i initially posted in my reddit post, this time hopefully with some more civil responses and not personal attacks.
As a general opening note, Reddit is a bit of a cesspool, so take anything you read there with a grain of salt.
Moving in to the meat of the thread. I want to preface this post to briefly explain my perspective - not as an appeal to authority or such, but because in conversations about mental health, it helps to understand folks’ perspectives. I am an attorney who, among other things, practices in the field of mental health, medical ethics, and child welfare. While I do not hold a degree in a medical or mental health profession, I have years of working in the field and an ethical obligation to keep sufficiently appraised of the field to advise my clients and speak with authority on the subject as well as have sufficient knowledge to undermine a counter-expert in the field if necessary.
D&D can be therapeutic - it is a great way to explore one’s own personality, what one might want their personality to be, or one’s issues they don’t feel comfortable discussing except when in the shoes of another. There even is recent research on using D&D as a mechanism to host group therapy sessions, with a psychologist serving as the dungeon master - essentially an adult version of play therapy.
However, unless in the right hands, D&D is not really therapy. Many, perhaps most, DMs and other players are simply not qualified to engage in that kind of quasi-therapeutic gameplay. It is possible they could even do more harm than good with their inexperienced attempts to handle one player’s mental health.
The DM also has a responsibility to their other players. If one player is making the game worse for everyone, that is not fair to the majority of players. And that can very well happen when someone is using D&D as a therapeutic tool - they might hog the spotlight, trigger other people’s mental health issues, or simply not mesh with the vibe of the other party members.
Whether it is the DM feeling uncomfortable with the subject matter or the way the other players might handle it, the DM being concerned there might be more harm than good, or the player creating a situation where the rest of the players are suffering a worse game experience, there are plenty of reasons one might ask such a player to leave. That should be done in a respectful, polite manner, with a focus on harm reduction - for there inevitably will be some fallout. That also means making sure the person is okay after, particularly if they are suffering serious issues and might be a harm to themselves or other. And one certainly should not be the kind of tool who brags about it on Reddit.
That, of course, is not the only option - you could continue to play with the person if you think it will work out. That is what I tend to do - and it always feels nice when one of my close friends tells me the D&D game I DM helps them work through things.
But your post seems to imply that you think “gut it out for the sake of your friend” is the only acceptable option. The right option is whatever the DM and other players feel comfortable with. If they can play with the player, keep from doing more harm, and keep their enjoyment, power to them. But, if they cannot? Then asking the player to leave (provided it is handled in a sensitive way) might be best for all involved, including the player suffering from mental health issues.
what a breath of fresh air and a wonderful perspective and i definitely agree with reddit being a cesspool. Dnd is, well, not a placeholder for actual therapy and cannot replace proper help from mental health professionals. I know because im studying to become a psychologist, however dnd can be as you say therapeutic. I guess that was one of the reasons it really stuck to me as i was struggling when i first got introduced to it which opened up a whole new world for me. I dont wish to discuss all that happened to me but rather address the post i saw. I may have been speaking too quickly and made it seem like a dm has to put up with anyone and anything, this isn't what i meant. A dm has their limits of course but what i meant was that its best to differentiate player and person. When that fails, i feel like it opens the door to some real nasty behavior like from what i saw in this post. The dm stating they will ignore their cries for attention and overall came off as an emotionally distant person tells me the dm already had a negative opinion of this person prior to the incident or lacks the necessary sympathy to understand. To me, this situation was escalated by the dm in a way that was totally preventable had he not outright said he will ignore his player's pleads and the player could have also in turn tried to cooperate more.
However, one thing that may be controversial is that if a player is struggling privately that doesn't and shouldn't automatically translate to "problem player" in the game. Sure, this person was going through a rough breakup which made him less "enthusiastic" but to label them a problem for clearly having been very affected is wrong and cold. It'd be better to have said that this person should take a break and get the help he needs while offering support from the sidelines (albeit optional if you are willing to provide support). Thanks for not bashing me at least, that's way more than all those people combined who responded to me in my original post over on reddit. Im glad people like you are able to provide a solid perspective without feeling personally attacked or resorting to personal attacks in this community.