Relatively new to multiclassing, but think I have an interesting potential build that I am surprised I haven't read more about because it feels like a beast to me.
I'm considering this for my campaign. We are expected to go to level 15, so I will not have access to high level spells or capstones anyways.
My idea is to build a Greatsword wielding Whisper Padlock (Vengeance Paladin 6/Warlock 3/College of Whispers Bard 6).
My rationale is to gain a sustained smite (or smite-like) ability vs. outright single-target Nova damage. With the Paladin 6, I am gaining extra attack, Divine Smite, and Vow of Emnity. The Warlock 3 will give me more of a SAD build which helps make up for the loss of an ASI, while also allowing for some sustained ranged cantrip dmg (eldritch blast), and using my CHA modifier for my greatsword (Improved Pact Weapon). It also gives me access to Shield, Armor of Agathys for survivability, and the dreaded Darkness/Devil's sight if I so choose.
But the real draw for me was the 2-2nd level pact spell slots that refresh on a short rest from the Warlock, plus 5 bardic inspirations that ALSO renew on short rest that can be used to essentially add a bardic smite for 3d6 on every hit (once per turn). That is SEVEN smites I can essentially use that refresh on a short rest!
The downside is clearly missing out on 4th/5th level spells if I was to do a pure Paladin (Find Greater Steed, Banishment, Death Ward), Warlock (Shadow of Moil/Hold Monster), or even Bard (Polymorph, Greater Invisibility), but my total spell slots feel very favorable vs. my alternatives, leaving all that smiting goodness:
Pure Paladin (level 15) 4/3/3/2/0
Padlock (Paladin 6/Warlock 9) 4/2/-/-/2
Whisper Padlock (Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Bard 6) 4/5 (3+2 pact)/3/3/1 + 5 Bardic Inspirations (Physic Blades - 3d6 damage per inspiration by lvl 15) totaling 21 smiting slots (7 on short rest).
I clearly have much less spell utility outside of smites, but still have some useful ones for buffing (Shield, Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image), control (Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Dissonant Whispers, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Bestow Curse, Hypnotic Pattern), Travel (Find Steed, Misty Step), and damage (Eldritch Blast, Magic Weapon).
Icing on the cake to me is my ability scores end up through the roof. Without Res Con, I'm still +7 on Con saves, athletics ability scores are +14, and my passive perception is +21, to name a few. But in any case, would love to get everyone's opinion on this build, especially compared to a Pure Vengeance Paladin, or a Sorcadin (P 6/S 9). Thanks!
This looks great. Personally, I'd probably recommend 6/14 paladin warlock if only because this looks like it's focusing more on smites than anything else, and you'd get good results utilizing eldritch smite+divine smite on crits (which is pretty easy to achieve once you lay down both hexblade's curse and vow of enmity.) Of course, this does mean you can only do that combo once per short rest, so I don't know if that would meet your personal criteria for a sustained smite build. Then again, I'm the type to conserve my smites just for crits, so personally it fits mine! 7 smites per short rest sounds great though. By the way, going 6/14 also allows you to get more invocations, leading me to my next point...
I'd recommend you toss in agonizing blast over improved pact weapon. Given that this is a greatsword build, your spell casting won't be constricted because you'll always have a free hand to handle materials, foci, and somatic components so the part of improved pact weapon that makes it your arcane focus is not so necessary. By level 15, EB is such a reliable option with agonizing blast and especially more so on your hexblade curse's target.
Right, but I was selecting Improved Pact Weapon more so that I could attune my Greatsword as my pact/hex weapon, allowing me to use my CHA modifier and keep STR at 16). I wanted to stay two handed for flavor (and because I already selected GWM as my Variant Human level 1 feat). As far as the 6/14 Paladin/Warlock, I guess I just never understood the build (although I admit that I am certainly no expert). It felt to me that being limited to two spell slots, even slots at a high level on a short rest, was lacking for a Paladin that wants to smite a lot.
Also, regarding your comment on eldritch smite couldn't I essentially achieve the same thing with this build and do it at a far more sustained level? I still have access to hexblade's curse and vow of emnity for the crit smiting on 19 or 20. with 6/14 Paladin/Warlock, couldn't I only do you what suggest twice per short rest (granted for a huge amount of damage)?
Put another way. Assume I ONLY use spell slots for Smites and that I ONLY Smite on Crits. (a big assumption, but this maximizes dmg. If anything I think it will prove my point further). Also assuming I am using a Greatsword (so 2d6 x 2 x (.5) +6 = 18pts on every crit on average). Also removing the buff from hexblade curse since I would get that damage regardless.
With a Paladin/Warlock with Eldritch Smite (6/9 - campaign only to level 15), my spell slots are 4/2/0/0/2
I can only Crit twice and use Eldritch Smite @ 5th lvl (5d8) PLUS Divine Smite @ 2nd lvl (3d8) for 82 dmg on avg. ((5d8 x 2 + 3d8 x 2 + 2d6 x2) x .5 + 6) a huge number for sure.
However, after that, I only have 4 1st level spells left, meaning I can only Crit Smite four more times @ 1st lvl (2d8) for 34 dmg on avg. (2d8 x 2 + 2d6 x 2) x .5 + 6.
So in summary, I can only crit smite 6 times between rest, for a total of 300 damage (2 x 82dmg + 4 x 34dmg)
Any crit after that point would only be base Greatsword (or 18pts on avg. per crit.)
With a Whisper Padlock with Physic Blade (6 Paladin/3 Warlock/6 Bard), my spell slots are 4/5/3/3/1 + 5 Bardic Inspirations (BI)
For those same first two crits, I could now use Divine Smite @ 4th level (5d8) PLUS Physic Blade (BI @ 3d6) without burning a 2nd spell slot at all for 76 dmg on avg. ((5d8 x 2 + 3d6 x 2 + 2d6 x 2) x .5 + 6). Not too shabby in itself.
However, I only used two spell slots! Now I can still smite fourteen more times before I even need a short rest.
1 more time using the same 4th level DS (5d8) + 3d6 BI for 76 avg. damage
2 more times using 3rd level DS (4d8) + 3d6 BI for 68 avg. damage
1 more time using 3rd level DS (4d8) without BI for 50 avg. damage
6 more times using 2nd level DS (3d8) without BI for 42 avg. damage
4 more times using 1st level DS (2d8) without BI for 34 avg. damage
During the same first 6 crit smites (to be even with the point Paladin/Warlock runs out of smites), this build would still output 414 avg. damage. (vs. 300 for Paladin/Warlock during the same time).
But again, Whisper Padlock is smiting sixteen total smite crits between rests for a total of 802 avg. damage! To be fair, 6/9 Paladin-Warlock is still base criting for those remaining 10 crits where the Whisper Padlock is still smiting, but for a paltry 18 pts. on avg. That puts Whisper Padlock at 802 avg. damage vs. 6/9 Paladin-Warlock at 480 avg. damage over the course of those 16 crits.
Now no one in their right mind would think a PC would crit 16 times between rests, but if anything, it just means that the avg. damage would go down by not smiting on a crit., not that the same dynamic is not in play. I may be missing something entirely here, but this feels like a huge difference in sustained power output. Again, I may be missing something here, so I welcome the feedback, but this Whisper build feels very interesting to me. Anyone with additional thoughts?
The improved pact weapon invocation isn't what allows you to use a great sword as your hex/pact weapon, that's what your pact of the blade pact boon does. You can lose out on the invocation and still use your great sword with CHA.
Anyways, no yeah the math definitely checks out. It's a solid build and I like it! My input is purely from a difference in preference, I like utilizing the caster aspects from warlock and even if you get few slots, you would have access to higher level spells. I mean, the most important thing is understanding what you want to achieve with your build, and you show a clear understanding of that with the idea of powerful, sustainable smiting assault. You even managed to take a less popular subclass like whispers bard and made it suitable to your purpose.
First I'm gonna point out that Psychic Blades is not a smite by any regards what so ever. So no you are not "smiting" 14 times Let alone 14 times more than the Padlock.
Further cgarciao is right. Improved Pact Weapon is absolutely useless for your build. Improved Pact Weapon allows the use of ranged weapons as pact weapons and that is all it does.
Several points I like to make here. I pretty much only play Paladins and every Paladin will have better staying power in the frontline. Its just how multiclassing works you gain some you loose some.
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Relatively new to multiclassing, but think I have an interesting potential build that I am surprised I haven't read more about because it feels like a beast to me.
I'm considering this for my campaign. We are expected to go to level 15, so I will not have access to high level spells or capstones anyways.
My idea is to build a Greatsword wielding Whisper Padlock (Vengeance Paladin 6/Warlock 3/College of Whispers Bard 6).
https://ddb.ac/characters/51995212/q6cIWQ
My rationale is to gain a sustained smite (or smite-like) ability vs. outright single-target Nova damage. With the Paladin 6, I am gaining extra attack, Divine Smite, and Vow of Emnity. The Warlock 3 will give me more of a SAD build which helps make up for the loss of an ASI, while also allowing for some sustained ranged cantrip dmg (eldritch blast), and using my CHA modifier for my greatsword (Improved Pact Weapon). It also gives me access to Shield, Armor of Agathys for survivability, and the dreaded Darkness/Devil's sight if I so choose.
But the real draw for me was the 2-2nd level pact spell slots that refresh on a short rest from the Warlock, plus 5 bardic inspirations that ALSO renew on short rest that can be used to essentially add a bardic smite for 3d6 on every hit (once per turn). That is SEVEN smites I can essentially use that refresh on a short rest!
The downside is clearly missing out on 4th/5th level spells if I was to do a pure Paladin (Find Greater Steed, Banishment, Death Ward), Warlock (Shadow of Moil/Hold Monster), or even Bard (Polymorph, Greater Invisibility), but my total spell slots feel very favorable vs. my alternatives, leaving all that smiting goodness:
I clearly have much less spell utility outside of smites, but still have some useful ones for buffing (Shield, Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image), control (Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Dissonant Whispers, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Bestow Curse, Hypnotic Pattern), Travel (Find Steed, Misty Step), and damage (Eldritch Blast, Magic Weapon).
Icing on the cake to me is my ability scores end up through the roof. Without Res Con, I'm still +7 on Con saves, athletics ability scores are +14, and my passive perception is +21, to name a few. But in any case, would love to get everyone's opinion on this build, especially compared to a Pure Vengeance Paladin, or a Sorcadin (P 6/S 9). Thanks!
This looks great. Personally, I'd probably recommend 6/14 paladin warlock if only because this looks like it's focusing more on smites than anything else, and you'd get good results utilizing eldritch smite+divine smite on crits (which is pretty easy to achieve once you lay down both hexblade's curse and vow of enmity.) Of course, this does mean you can only do that combo once per short rest, so I don't know if that would meet your personal criteria for a sustained smite build. Then again, I'm the type to conserve my smites just for crits, so personally it fits mine! 7 smites per short rest sounds great though. By the way, going 6/14 also allows you to get more invocations, leading me to my next point...
I'd recommend you toss in agonizing blast over improved pact weapon. Given that this is a greatsword build, your spell casting won't be constricted because you'll always have a free hand to handle materials, foci, and somatic components so the part of improved pact weapon that makes it your arcane focus is not so necessary. By level 15, EB is such a reliable option with agonizing blast and especially more so on your hexblade curse's target.
Right, but I was selecting Improved Pact Weapon more so that I could attune my Greatsword as my pact/hex weapon, allowing me to use my CHA modifier and keep STR at 16). I wanted to stay two handed for flavor (and because I already selected GWM as my Variant Human level 1 feat). As far as the 6/14 Paladin/Warlock, I guess I just never understood the build (although I admit that I am certainly no expert). It felt to me that being limited to two spell slots, even slots at a high level on a short rest, was lacking for a Paladin that wants to smite a lot.
Also, regarding your comment on eldritch smite couldn't I essentially achieve the same thing with this build and do it at a far more sustained level? I still have access to hexblade's curse and vow of emnity for the crit smiting on 19 or 20. with 6/14 Paladin/Warlock, couldn't I only do you what suggest twice per short rest (granted for a huge amount of damage)?
Put another way. Assume I ONLY use spell slots for Smites and that I ONLY Smite on Crits. (a big assumption, but this maximizes dmg. If anything I think it will prove my point further). Also assuming I am using a Greatsword (so 2d6 x 2 x (.5) +6 = 18pts on every crit on average). Also removing the buff from hexblade curse since I would get that damage regardless.
With a Paladin/Warlock with Eldritch Smite (6/9 - campaign only to level 15), my spell slots are 4/2/0/0/2
With a Whisper Padlock with Physic Blade (6 Paladin/3 Warlock/6 Bard), my spell slots are 4/5/3/3/1 + 5 Bardic Inspirations (BI)
But again, Whisper Padlock is smiting sixteen total smite crits between rests for a total of 802 avg. damage! To be fair, 6/9 Paladin-Warlock is still base criting for those remaining 10 crits where the Whisper Padlock is still smiting, but for a paltry 18 pts. on avg. That puts Whisper Padlock at 802 avg. damage vs. 6/9 Paladin-Warlock at 480 avg. damage over the course of those 16 crits.
Now no one in their right mind would think a PC would crit 16 times between rests, but if anything, it just means that the avg. damage would go down by not smiting on a crit., not that the same dynamic is not in play. I may be missing something entirely here, but this feels like a huge difference in sustained power output. Again, I may be missing something here, so I welcome the feedback, but this Whisper build feels very interesting to me. Anyone with additional thoughts?
The improved pact weapon invocation isn't what allows you to use a great sword as your hex/pact weapon, that's what your pact of the blade pact boon does. You can lose out on the invocation and still use your great sword with CHA.
Anyways, no yeah the math definitely checks out. It's a solid build and I like it! My input is purely from a difference in preference, I like utilizing the caster aspects from warlock and even if you get few slots, you would have access to higher level spells. I mean, the most important thing is understanding what you want to achieve with your build, and you show a clear understanding of that with the idea of powerful, sustainable smiting assault. You even managed to take a less popular subclass like whispers bard and made it suitable to your purpose.
First I'm gonna point out that Psychic Blades is not a smite by any regards what so ever. So no you are not "smiting" 14 times Let alone 14 times more than the Padlock.
Further cgarciao is right. Improved Pact Weapon is absolutely useless for your build. Improved Pact Weapon allows the use of ranged weapons as pact weapons and that is all it does.
Several points I like to make here. I pretty much only play Paladins and every Paladin will have better staying power in the frontline. Its just how multiclassing works you gain some you loose some.