For your starting weapon, choose the glaive, pike, halberd, or quarterstaff. Next, take the polearm master feat, followed by the sentinel feat. You can now smite twice on your turn at level 2, or three times at level 5. Once you gain the sentinel feat, you can use your reaction to smite any enemy that comes within 10 feet of you and prevent them from moving, allowing additional smites on your turn. What are your thoughts on this build?
Not bad for a min/max vengeance setup. Fighter can probably do it better, due to having extra ASIs for it.
Try magic initiate (warlock) for booming blade and eldritch blast (or dip warlock for them, probably the better short-term option), along with polearm master and warcaster. I ran something similar to this on a paladin multiclass build. Carrying a quarterstaff or a spear, anything that triggers AoO gets slapped with booming blade and possibly divine smite. If you find gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of giant's strength, we can also throw in sentinel to negate disengages.
1. Get Great Weapon Master for the -5/+10 to increase dps.
2. Use Bless to offset that somewhat.
3. Use Vow of Emnity against boss to offset it even more. Choose to smite on a critical in order to nova-burst since you now have almost 10% chance to crit.
Paladins typically throw more dice than fighters, but they get less attacks. GWM's -5/+10 is better when you can throw out more attacks. In addition, if you already took PAM, you already get to add a bonus action attack, making the bonus on a crit or kill moot.
If this is something you really want, roll up a half-elf and take elven accuracy. Maybe lucky, too.
If we're talking about a true nova-burst character, I've run a paladin 2/divine sorc 9/bladelock 9 for DnD Beyond's Christmas one-shot. PAM/WC, crit with booming blade, level 5 searing smite, level 4 divine smite and level 5 eldritch smite. 20 strength.
The number of dice used was too damn high. 6d6 + 14d8 without a crit (average damage 89). With a crit, 40 dice (173). 😂
Paladins typically throw more dice than fighters, but they get less attacks. GWM's -5/+10 is better when you can throw out more attacks. In addition, if you already took PAM, you already get to add a bonus action attack, making the bonus on a crit or kill moot.
If this is something you really want, roll up a half-elf and take elven accuracy. Maybe lucky, too.
If we're talking about a true nova-burst character, I've run a paladin 2/divine sorc 9/bladelock 9 for DnD Beyond's Christmas one-shot. PAM/WC, crit with booming blade, level 5 searing smite, level 4 divine smite and level 5 eldritch smite. 20 strength.
The number of dice used was too damn high. 6d6 + 14d8 without a crit (average damage 89). With a crit, 40 dice (173). 😂
First there is no reason to do this with PAM. You are actually loosing damage by doing it.
A Standard Paladin with a Longsword can do 16d8 on two attacks. Not including bonus action Smites.
A PAM Paladin can do a max of 1d4+2d10+21d8
Granted a Padlock can deal more on a single crit but its max damage is substantially lower.
Now to caviate on this PAM and GWM are actually the wose choice to go with if you're looking to min max. In 5 Rounds of Combat you are only dealing slightly more damage than a S&B Paladin. All your really doing is in creasing Max single Round damage not total Damage. As total Round damage will be roughly the same. With Polearm edging out slightly.
I disagree with the math. I find enemies approaching a paladin, whether to attack him/her/them or pass to attack backline characters, to be very common. PAM opens the AoO on being approached, adding another possible 1d6/8+7d8 that can possibly be comboed with WC for BB (+3-7d8, 5 foot range blocks reach weapons w/o spell sniper).
Sentinel is in a similar boat, as fighting side-by-side with another frontline ally is also very common and it denies disengages. However, it's reaction melee attack on an ally being attacked isn't an AoO caused by movement and cannot be comboed with WC. It can still WC BB if an enemy tries to disengage.
I'll admit the example I presented is rather silly, as it's highly inefficient on spell slots for the single-hit damage I once got away with. However, I stand behind my aversion to GWM due to the increased risk for the static payout. A level 20 regular greatsword paladin does about 21 (2d6+2d8+5) damage on a regular hit. Add 4.5 plus another 4.5 for the slot level up to 4th for an average smite of 22.5 (43.5 on a hit). Would you risk a -25% to hit rate for a +23% damage bonus? On an epic-level enemy, I wouldn't.
At level 7 a Vengeance Paladin kan become really cheesy with this setup due to the Relentless Avenger feature. Basically, whenever an enemy comes within reach you can use Sentinel in combination with PAM do attack them. If you hit their movement goes down to zero. With RA you can then just move back a few paces so that they can't reach you. Rince, repeat. :)
Looking at the oath of vengeance, they already have a reaction attack, soul of vengeance. This mitigates the need for PAM or sentinel for this type of reaction outlet. PAM+sentinel still works nicely, it's just not as necessary on a vengeance paladin.
With PAM, the level 7 feature is nice to bounce from a defeated enemy to another one or when fighting against an enemy with a 10 foot reach.
Looking at the oath of vengeance, they already have a reaction attack, soul of vengeance. This mitigates the need for PAM or sentinel for this type of reaction outlet. PAM+sentinel still works nicely, it's just not as necessary on a vengeance paladin.
With PAM, the level 7 feature is nice to bounce from a defeated enemy to another one or when fighting against an enemy with a 10 foot reach.
No, you would still need PAM and Sentinel. PAM gives you an AOO when people *enter* your reach. Sentinel allows you to stop them there, before they reach you. Relentless Avenger then lets you back away so that you can repeat the same move the next turn. :)
Min-maxing damage output is fun and all, but how about a charisma-oriented setup? Auras and save DCs at their highest are great enablers for your party. Hold person can stick more reliably, heroism can refresh higher temp hp, aura of protection can add a huge +5 to all saves for yourself and your party, etc.
Min-maxing damage output is fun and all, but how about a charisma-oriented setup? Auras and save DCs at their highest are great enablers for your party. Hold person can stick more reliably, heroism can refresh higher temp hp, aura of protection can add a huge +5 to all saves for yourself and your party, etc.
This Right Here.
This is what I've been saying. With PAM, Sentinel, GWM its irrelevant as a Paladin.
I'm Topping Damage in my game currently as a Devotion Paladin with 14 STR and a regular Longsword.
Why well Smites. As Paladins specifically both Devotion and Vengeance you can increase you're two hit with either advantage or you're charisma score. Smites negate the need to have extra damage. Yes they run out. But in this Only PAM is going to increase you're damage around and it's still going to be lower than a fighter or barbarian of comparable levels once smites run out. Paladin are Nova Dealers. Designed to solo hard opponents for the Party.
Sentinel is nice however if you're routinely having enemies circumvent you its generally because of bad positioning of the front line fighters or their allies. Use choke points to funnel creatures block with bodies etc.
As such AC is insanely important. At level 7 a Paladin can Solo a CR 13 Creature. I've specifically done this in Avernus. My Devotion Paladin has a 23 AC and single handedly killed the Warden and His Nightmare after my Party fled from fear. Yes I burnt all my spells. But the Warden also couldnt touch my AC when he was at Disadvantage from Protection from evil and good. Combined with Sacred Weapon gave me a +8 to hit.
Being able to a Paladin avoid being hit is more important as a Paladin. Then turn by turn damage. Let's Smites mitigate the difference. No matter what you do Smites will still burst damage anything. It is better to have a high AC and high Saves then high STR as a Paladin.
Now granted you dont need a +5 in CHA but its definitely a plus. A +4 will do just fine. Combine this with Tough and Resilient CON and you'll easily have over a +10 Con and have high HP with high AC and you have a high staying power with Damage Output. Because who cares how much damage you're dealing when nothing can hit you.
I guarantee you build a Paladin around these and min 16 Con and Cha and you'll repeatedly be able to tank and kill most things you'll fight up to lvl 9 for sure.
I'll say this one last time. All more attacks do is allow you to Smite faster. This only changes total smite damage a round and not total smite damage per combat.
Lets do a math experiment. I doubt ther will be much of a difference on a turn by turn bases between a S&B and a PAM Paladin. For this we'll assume 16 STR against a fiend for max smites. Lvl 20 characters. This will be what they can max do given actions and bonus actions.
S&B longsword:
Deals 1d8 for longsword, 1d8 improved divine smite, 6d8 Divine Smite, repeat for second attack, and 5d10 Banishing Smite bonus action. This gives you:
16d8+5d10+6 =
Max Crit. 362 Max. 184 Avg. 103. Min. 27
PAM w/Halberd:
Deals 1d10 for longsword, 1d8 improved divine smite, 6d8 divine smite, repeat for 2nd attack. Third Attack is 1d4 for bonus action attack, 1d8 improved divine smite, and 6d8 divine smite. This gives you:
2d10+1d4+21d8+9 =
Max Crit. 393 Max. 201 Avg. 115.5 Min. 33
As you can see the biggest difference between the two is 31 points for Max Crits but narrows down to 6 points at minimum damage.
These little increases to damage on numbers that immediately start dropping off from here are not worth the loss of an +5 to AC at the most at this level. You are talking the difference between a 23 AC and a 28 AC with +2 Plate and +3 Shield.
Lets do a math experiment. I doubt ther will be much of a difference on a turn by turn bases between a S&B and a PAM Paladin. For this we'll assume 16 STR against a fiend for max smites. Lvl 20 characters. This will be what they can max do given actions and bonus actions.
S&B longsword:
Deals 1d8 for longsword, 1d8 improved divine smite, 6d8 Divine Smite, repeat for second attack, and 5d10 Banishing Smite bonus action. This gives you:
16d8+5d10+6 =
Max Crit. 362 Max. 184 Avg. 103. Min. 27
PAM w/Halberd:
Deals 1d10 for longsword, 1d8 improved divine smite, 6d8 divine smite, repeat for 2nd attack. Third Attack is 1d4 for bonus action attack, 1d8 improved divine smite, and 6d8 divine smite. This gives you:
2d10+1d4+21d8+9 =
Max Crit. 393 Max. 201 Avg. 115.5 Min. 33
As you can see the biggest difference between the two is 31 points for Max Crits but narrows down to 6 points at minimum damage.
These little increases to damage on numbers that immediately start dropping off from here are not worth the loss of an +5 to AC at the most at this level. You are talking the difference between a 23 AC and a 28 AC with +2 Plate and +3 Shield.
Couple things.
1. Additional attack means more chance to crit means better chance to utilize Divine Smite.
2. PAM allows you to attack the first enemy/round that wants to attack you due to 10ft. reach and attack of opportunity. That is additional damage the s&b doesn't get since he needs to wait for an enemy to leave his threat area as opposed to enter it. You can't add it in your scenario because it's in a void but in order to determine the usefulness of that everyone needs to ask themselves a question: how many times have I been approached by an attacking monster and didn't use a reaction? All it takes is a) them acting first b) distance being longer than a 30ft. run for it to have an effect.
That is an additional attack that will benefit from Improved Smite, Divine Smite (if you choose to use it), another chance of critical hit
3. Additional attack benefits from stuff you may have on you - as we are talking lvl 20, why not consider Holy Weapon for instance? It has a nice 1h duration so it's not a stretch that a Paladin would cast it on himself before entering the evil lair. Except when you are using Banishing Smite, you can't have Holy Weapon, can you? And you absolutely need that spell because it's mitigating the fact that a PAM Paladin can smite 3x vs. S&B 2x.
4. Really no point in comparing min. damage because you are as likely to hit that as you are likely to hit maximum damage - with that many dices we are talking lottery level probabilities here. Optimize around average damage.
5. As for GWM - it has it's uses. +10 damage to each hit is not nothing, esp. since not every monster is that hard to hit and you have ways to mitigate the -5 (advantage, bless). I do believe people made some formulas about that and it is a dpr boost. It's not for every scenario but when you can unleash it, it will be effective.
You mentioned a fiend - a Balor has an AC of 19, at lvl 20 you can easily unleash whatever you want at him with minimal effort. Oh and look, since you have a 10ft. reach you are immune to it's Fire Aura!
Because who cares how much damage you're dealing when nothing can hit you.
How about everyone else in the party who will benefit from faster ending the encounter?
1. Yes it means more chances to Crit. I'm not arguing that by any means. However, a single attack isnt going to increase the odds of getting a crotch by any significant margin. Unless your say a champion fighter critting on 18s, 19, and 20s
2. Correct. Again however, unless you're positioned correctly and your DM is just mindlessly throwing enemies at you instead of using tactics this really isnt all two effective. Its insanely effective in hallways and other such choke points. Not much against anything else. Why do I say this? Well as a Paladin main player with 15 years of playing across multiple games and DMs I've spent more time running after things in the open that are trying to get away from the Paladin because hes slow as shit then having perfect scenarios work.
3. You're right but as you mention later on why not prepare something more powerful. Pre casting banishing smite would allow you to do 16d8+10d10+6 in a singl roun of combat. This gives you Max Crit. 462. Max. 234 Avg. 128 Min. 32. At this point Holy weapons Max. 32 Avg. 18 is in consequential in it only coming close in Avg. Damage giving prep spells. Prep Spells are irrelevant in this though as it's not increasing the single divide and it's not going to increase damage over time substantially enough to matter in a singular class. Further we are currently talking single round damage. It matters not what spell I use to boost my single round damage with a 1 handed longsword when you cant do the same with a glaive. As I've repeatedly said though it matters very little what's done in Paladin v Paladin as the end result on similar characters with different weapons is always going to be a marginal difference at best given a set amount of time.
4. Minimum damage potential absolutely matters. There is a big difference between dealing 6 damage before dice are rolled and 46. Anyone who says other wise doesnt understand the concept of min/maxing which is maximizing your minimum and Maximum potential.
5. I really dont think you completely understand what GWM can do in the right build. Yes some people have made maps but I'm telling you right now they had no idea this build could be made.
So I'll issue you a challenge right now to prove to you that GWM can most Certainly out perform PAM. You can make what ever PAM Paladin you want and we will see what has more single round damage across all categories and which has a higher hit percentage.
Restrictions: First this is going to be all about melee Combat no ranged attacks. Second for Magic items you can only have 1 legendary, 2 Very Rare, 3 Rare items, and uncommon items are what ever. If you multiclass it's no more than 3 levels that are not Paladin. Fourth you'll have two turns before combat begins to prepare spell or abilities. Fifth only point buy. Finally the final consideration is can your character actually survive fighting a pit fiend alone.
1. Or a Vengeance Paladin who can get advantage on every one of their 3 attack rolls. That is 26% for a crit here.
2. Please spare the "15 years of maining Paladin" flex ;-)
3. I'm not really sure what point you are making here. That precast spells are irrelevant? Unless it's an ambush or fighting game, you more often than not absolutely have at least 6 seconds to prepare yourself. And yes, Holy Weapon is weaker than Banishing Smite in a single round damage but it's an 1h long spell that can be used during multiple fights. I value practical experience and I would have it on me when entering any time of the day.
4. Sure, minimum flat numbers matter. Minimum dice damage doesn't. More often than not if you are raising your damage, you are raising your minimum damage anyway. I am just saying that comparing minimum and maximum damage from the dice you roll is irrelevant because it's statistically insignificant.
The chance to roll 16 damage on a 16d8 roll is the same as rolling 128 - in both cases it's 0.0000000000004%
You may be playing D&D for additional 15 years and you may never see it happen. Why did I take arbitrary 16d8? Because my online dice probabilty calculator doesn't count further, it's that low.
5. What makes you think I don't understand what GWM can do? It really is a simple feat. Gives damage, reduces accuracy. As long as you can mitigate the accuracy loss or as long as you are hitting stuff that is easy to hit but is a damage sponge, it's an excellent feat.
You say "this build" - what build are you talking about?
Why do you issue a challenge GWM vs. PAM to me? What in this discussion has given you the impression that it is needed? I have never once said anything about one being better than the other. It's a weird comparison because most builds that utilize PAM take GWM anyway.
If I may throw in my two cents, precast spells often do matter. When I run full paladins, I often have a warhorse or a pegasus that I keep around almost indefinitely via find steed or find greater steed. I may not have bless up or even prepared when a fight breaks out, though I may likely cast it once a fight seems unavoidable. Having a mount also throws Mounted Combatant into the mix.
In a 1v1 against another paladin, I think I'd run a redemption paladin for the channel divinity rebuke the violent. Getting crit-smited suddenly doesn't seem too bad if I can survive that hit and throw that damage back at the attacker.
The inclusion of magic items would not make an ideal scenario for comparing two character builds of the same base class, as the game and class were not designed around them. Artificers, sure, but not paladins.
The game is also built around team gameplay involving combat, social and exploration encounters. You can build a high strength PAM/GWM/sentinel paladin, but I imagine he'd have trouble getting a disgruntled vizier to let the group talk to a king when a colossal turtle mountain thing is both seen over the horizon and facing this way. Spiking strength and constitution makes a reliable attacker, but dumping intelligence or wisdom to do so makes it hard for such a character to tell which enemy is actually the biggest threat. Yes, the lich over there can cast disintegrate but the hordes of zombies and skeletons shambling to the nearby village can decimate a populace quickly. Such is the nature of a min-max.
It all depends on what's going on. Let the DM enable you to be the greatest hero (or villain) out there. Let's work together to make that character.
Oh I completely understand D&D is a team game. However, an in contrary to your commentthe game is designed for magic items. This being said though it makes build encounters more challenging.
This all being said the character I'm talking about that deals over 100 damage at the minimum for 3 turns and deals about 90 damage before dice are rolled.
I've said this repeatedly on thus forum now as Paladins dumping ASI into STR as a Paladin isnt worth it. Most of our damage isnt reliant on STR and there are so many magic items that boost STR that a 13 or 14 STR is doable until such items are recieved. As such to prove a point I have a 14 STR Paladin that is the only thing currently keeping the Party from dying.
I completely understand how a low-strength frontliner can still keep a party going. I've run a charisma-oriented BM fighter who mainly taunted enemies into attacking him with charisma (deception) checks while he dodged and rallied his allies. Highly silly, probably shouldn't have worked, but got the job done.
Paladins like to roll lots of dice rather than slap with a modifier; leave the latter to barbarians and fighters. This is a reason why I like to dip paladin for melee sorcerer builds. It takes advantage of font of magic's slot redistribution to allow efficient slot use for smiting. Note here that it only really works for slot levels 1 and 2, as 3-5 cost extra sorcery points. Not to mention almost endless uses of shield.
Hexblade bladelocks can dip paladin to spike nova damage even higher, but they can't sustain it without further paladin or other caster investments. With said investments, however, you can possibly double-smite, splattering most enemies that dare stand before you or provoke AoO without running out of steam too quickly.
That said, smiting still requires a hit with a melee weapon attack using a melee weapon. That's where the idea of high strength being ideal comes from. Having a +8 to hit at level 17 won't reliably land on the 25 AC tarrasque, which a DM may consider throwing at such a high level character's party. Dipping barbarian for reckless attack can help with this.
What would be the ideal race for a paladin? Lots of people I know like using mountain dwarves, dragonborn, half elves, half orcs and variant humans, but any assortment of boosted strength, constitution and/or charisma can theoretically work. Dexterity paladins aren't off the table, either.
1. Or a Vengeance Paladin who can get advantage on every one of their 3 attack rolls. That is 26% for a crit here.
2. Please spare the "15 years of maining Paladin" flex ;-)
3. I'm not really sure what point you are making here. That precast spells are irrelevant? Unless it's an ambush or fighting game, you more often than not absolutely have at least 6 seconds to prepare yourself. And yes, Holy Weapon is weaker than Banishing Smite in a single round damage but it's an 1h long spell that can be used during multiple fights. I value practical experience and I would have it on me when entering any time of the day.
4. Sure, minimum flat numbers matter. Minimum dice damage doesn't. More often than not if you are raising your damage, you are raising your minimum damage anyway. I am just saying that comparing minimum and maximum damage from the dice you roll is irrelevant because it's statistically insignificant.
The chance to roll 16 damage on a 16d8 roll is the same as rolling 128 - in both cases it's 0.0000000000004%
You may be playing D&D for additional 15 years and you may never see it happen. Why did I take arbitrary 16d8? Because my online dice probabilty calculator doesn't count further, it's that low.
5. What makes you think I don't understand what GWM can do? It really is a simple feat. Gives damage, reduces accuracy. As long as you can mitigate the accuracy loss or as long as you are hitting stuff that is easy to hit but is a damage sponge, it's an excellent feat.
You say "this build" - what build are you talking about?
Why do you issue a challenge GWM vs. PAM to me? What in this discussion has given you the impression that it is needed? I have never once said anything about one being better than the other. It's a weird comparison because most builds that utilize PAM take GWM anyway.
1. The increase while a buff to Paladins is as I've stated now multiple times not comparable to what fighters and Barbarians can do. However it's still an increase.
2. The years of experience playing directly goes into a topic that's covering Sentinel vs Positioning or are you implying that 1st year players are as knowledge on the difference between the two. Sentinels only advantage over positioning is hitting things that disengage.
3. Ok first you're responding to me respond to Rexir2 about single round damage not damage over time or did you not glean this from previous posts on min maxing a Paladin. Also have you forgot it was you yourself that proposed do iui ng more damage in a single round than damage over a longer period? My stance has and remains that your sacrificing more survivability to deal damage a single round faster as the difference between the two is negligible given smites. You also seem to not understand what I'm saying about prepatory spells being irrelevant in this instance. They are not irrelevant in combat. They are irrelevant when discussing single round damage on a single class that's just armed with different weapons as with smite spells damage delt over timed is unchanged with in that class. Simply because the different classes can cast the same spells at different times.
4. First your first two sentences are absolutely illogical given the Nature of D&D. There is no such thing as minimum flat numbers. Theres just flat numbers. When talking about damage though you are never just dealing flat damage. You are dealing the flat damage added to what ever the damage roll is. For the most part minimum damage doesnt change until you factor in abilities. In this very nature though so do flat numbers so you're entire begining arguement is flawed.
The importance of minimum and maximum is absolutely relevant to any min/max discussion for multiple reason.
First is the AVG damages doesnt properly reflect damage that's dealt, specifically when Smites are invloved. As I've shown in this specific thread. If we are talking just a longsword then we are talking an 84 point difference between max damage and average and 156 point difference between max crit and avg crit.
Second discussing minimum and maximum damage isnt about dealing it. It's about the spread of the potential. It be one thing if we were talking Barbarians damage as min max and avg dont have such a wide margin but Paladin can burn as many spell slots to boost damage as they have attacks and bonus actions. This creates a huge margin that can change drastically based off of this.
Yes the Margin is small I have never once implied it wasnt. This being said I myself have come close to maxing smites as have many other as seen from various live streams. Joe Manganiello has, with Arkhan done 345 damage in a turn during a live stream.
5. This was a misunderstanding on my point cause the bulk of what was talked about between me and Rexir had to do comparing different build. I.e. polearm vs great weapon vs longsword. However built right GWM can be used all the time.
That was a typo with "minimum flat numbers" - should've been just "flat numbers" but I rewrote that sentence from something else and it stayed that way. Not gonna edit it now since you responded to it but ok.
Moving on.
When you say that avg. damage doesn't properly reflect damage dealt you are simply losing me. It's against any kind of math and statistics known to man.
The reason there is greater difference between avg. crit vs. max crit and normal hit vs. normal hit max dmg is because of the sheer number of dice thrown. But guess what? The more dice you throw, the less chance you have for max damage. It evens out. Max total crit may be well beyond in points vs. avg. crit but you still use average damage because you have no chance of rolling that.
The less dice you throw the more chance you have for max damage. It's a simple as that. You have shown nothing to convince me that avg doesn't matter because of smites. It absolutely does matter.
Where did Joe roll this damage? I'd like to see it. The only mention of him doing any significant damage is his 135 against Vecna in Critical Role stream.
And where did I suggest doing damage in single turn vs. over period of time? I don't know where I suggested it. The only thing I said is that I value Holy Weapon more than Banishing Smite because it has better utility (3 hits and you have closed the damage difference and you still have one hour left of buff).
In fact - I have alluded to the opposite with my mentions of reaction from PAM (meaning that you get additional attacks over the course of combat as a reaction against enemy approaching you within 10ft. reach which means more chance to crit and more chance to smite).
As for no2. - I have never said anything about Sentinel. Only about Polearm Master. You lose initiative, a melee attacker comes your way and gets whamed in the face once he is 10ft. from you, before he gets the chance to attack you. The only way this does not come up is if you always win initative and are always 30ft. or less from enemy or you don't get attacked by melee attackers at all.
That was a typo with "minimum flat numbers" - should've been just "flat numbers" but I rewrote that sentence from something else and it stayed that way. Not gonna edit it now since you responded to it but ok.
Moving on.
When you say that avg. damage doesn't properly reflect damage dealt you are simply losing me. It's against any kind of math and statistics known to man.
The reason there is greater difference between avg. crit vs. max crit and normal hit vs. normal hit max dmg is because of the sheer number of dice thrown. But guess what? The more dice you throw, the less chance you have for max damage. It evens out. Max total crit may be well beyond in points vs. avg. crit but you still use average damage because you have no chance of rolling that.
The less dice you throw the more chance you have for max damage. It's a simple as that. You have shown nothing to convince me that avg doesn't matter because of smites. It absolutely does matter.
Where did Joe roll this damage? I'd like to see it. The only mention of him doing any significant damage is his 135 against Vecna in Critical Role stream.
And where did I suggest doing damage in single turn vs. over period of time? I don't know where I suggested it. The only thing I said is that I value Holy Weapon more than Banishing Smite because it has better utility (3 hits and you have closed the damage difference and you still have one hour left of buff).
In fact - I have alluded to the opposite with my mentions of reaction from PAM (meaning that you get additional attacks over the course of combat as a reaction against enemy approaching you within 10ft. reach which means more chance to crit and more chance to smite).
As for no2. - I have never said anything about Sentinel. Only about Polearm Master. You lose initiative, a melee attacker comes your way and gets whamed in the face once he is 10ft. from you, before he gets the chance to attack you. The only way this does not come up is if you always win initative and are always 30ft. or less from enemy or you don't get attacked by melee attackers at all.
Did I ever say average numbers didnt matter? No I said average damage doesnt properly reflect the damage Paladins can deal. There is a clear difference you might want to understand it.
You're quote in response to mine avoiding damage and doing damage over time
"How about everyone else in the party who will benefit from faster ending the encounter?"
That was my take aways specifically because the quote you quoted me was in regards to avoiding being hit to deal the damage. This was the end of your first response.
As for 2. Apologies. On bringing up Sentinel still was thinking of when I first brought it up and why I did.
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For your starting weapon, choose the glaive, pike, halberd, or quarterstaff. Next, take the polearm master feat, followed by the sentinel feat. You can now smite twice on your turn at level 2, or three times at level 5. Once you gain the sentinel feat, you can use your reaction to smite any enemy that comes within 10 feet of you and prevent them from moving, allowing additional smites on your turn. What are your thoughts on this build?
Not bad for a min/max vengeance setup. Fighter can probably do it better, due to having extra ASIs for it.
Try magic initiate (warlock) for booming blade and eldritch blast (or dip warlock for them, probably the better short-term option), along with polearm master and warcaster. I ran something similar to this on a paladin multiclass build. Carrying a quarterstaff or a spear, anything that triggers AoO gets slapped with booming blade and possibly divine smite. If you find gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of giant's strength, we can also throw in sentinel to negate disengages.
Pretty straightforward and effective.
Other notes:
1. Get Great Weapon Master for the -5/+10 to increase dps.
2. Use Bless to offset that somewhat.
3. Use Vow of Emnity against boss to offset it even more. Choose to smite on a critical in order to nova-burst since you now have almost 10% chance to crit.
A bit of a counter-argument against GWM:
Paladins typically throw more dice than fighters, but they get less attacks. GWM's -5/+10 is better when you can throw out more attacks. In addition, if you already took PAM, you already get to add a bonus action attack, making the bonus on a crit or kill moot.
If this is something you really want, roll up a half-elf and take elven accuracy. Maybe lucky, too.
If we're talking about a true nova-burst character, I've run a paladin 2/divine sorc 9/bladelock 9 for DnD Beyond's Christmas one-shot. PAM/WC, crit with booming blade, level 5 searing smite, level 4 divine smite and level 5 eldritch smite. 20 strength.
The number of dice used was too damn high. 6d6 + 14d8 without a crit (average damage 89). With a crit, 40 dice (173). 😂
First there is no reason to do this with PAM. You are actually loosing damage by doing it.
A Standard Paladin with a Longsword can do 16d8 on two attacks. Not including bonus action Smites.
A PAM Paladin can do a max of 1d4+2d10+21d8
Granted a Padlock can deal more on a single crit but its max damage is substantially lower.
Now to caviate on this PAM and GWM are actually the wose choice to go with if you're looking to min max. In 5 Rounds of Combat you are only dealing slightly more damage than a S&B Paladin. All your really doing is in creasing Max single Round damage not total Damage. As total Round damage will be roughly the same. With Polearm edging out slightly.
I disagree with the math. I find enemies approaching a paladin, whether to attack him/her/them or pass to attack backline characters, to be very common. PAM opens the AoO on being approached, adding another possible 1d6/8+7d8 that can possibly be comboed with WC for BB (+3-7d8, 5 foot range blocks reach weapons w/o spell sniper).
Sentinel is in a similar boat, as fighting side-by-side with another frontline ally is also very common and it denies disengages. However, it's reaction melee attack on an ally being attacked isn't an AoO caused by movement and cannot be comboed with WC. It can still WC BB if an enemy tries to disengage.
I'll admit the example I presented is rather silly, as it's highly inefficient on spell slots for the single-hit damage I once got away with. However, I stand behind my aversion to GWM due to the increased risk for the static payout. A level 20 regular greatsword paladin does about 21 (2d6+2d8+5) damage on a regular hit. Add 4.5 plus another 4.5 for the slot level up to 4th for an average smite of 22.5 (43.5 on a hit). Would you risk a -25% to hit rate for a +23% damage bonus? On an epic-level enemy, I wouldn't.
At level 7 a Vengeance Paladin kan become really cheesy with this setup due to the Relentless Avenger feature. Basically, whenever an enemy comes within reach you can use Sentinel in combination with PAM do attack them. If you hit their movement goes down to zero. With RA you can then just move back a few paces so that they can't reach you. Rince, repeat. :)
Looking at the oath of vengeance, they already have a reaction attack, soul of vengeance. This mitigates the need for PAM or sentinel for this type of reaction outlet. PAM+sentinel still works nicely, it's just not as necessary on a vengeance paladin.
With PAM, the level 7 feature is nice to bounce from a defeated enemy to another one or when fighting against an enemy with a 10 foot reach.
Now, would casting hold person or hold monster be better than casting haste?
No, you would still need PAM and Sentinel. PAM gives you an AOO when people *enter* your reach. Sentinel allows you to stop them there, before they reach you. Relentless Avenger then lets you back away so that you can repeat the same move the next turn. :)
Min-maxing damage output is fun and all, but how about a charisma-oriented setup? Auras and save DCs at their highest are great enablers for your party. Hold person can stick more reliably, heroism can refresh higher temp hp, aura of protection can add a huge +5 to all saves for yourself and your party, etc.
This Right Here.
This is what I've been saying. With PAM, Sentinel, GWM its irrelevant as a Paladin.
I'm Topping Damage in my game currently as a Devotion Paladin with 14 STR and a regular Longsword.
Why well Smites. As Paladins specifically both Devotion and Vengeance you can increase you're two hit with either advantage or you're charisma score. Smites negate the need to have extra damage. Yes they run out. But in this Only PAM is going to increase you're damage around and it's still going to be lower than a fighter or barbarian of comparable levels once smites run out. Paladin are Nova Dealers. Designed to solo hard opponents for the Party.
Sentinel is nice however if you're routinely having enemies circumvent you its generally because of bad positioning of the front line fighters or their allies. Use choke points to funnel creatures block with bodies etc.
As such AC is insanely important. At level 7 a Paladin can Solo a CR 13 Creature. I've specifically done this in Avernus. My Devotion Paladin has a 23 AC and single handedly killed the Warden and His Nightmare after my Party fled from fear. Yes I burnt all my spells. But the Warden also couldnt touch my AC when he was at Disadvantage from Protection from evil and good. Combined with Sacred Weapon gave me a +8 to hit.
Being able to a Paladin avoid being hit is more important as a Paladin. Then turn by turn damage. Let's Smites mitigate the difference. No matter what you do Smites will still burst damage anything. It is better to have a high AC and high Saves then high STR as a Paladin.
Now granted you dont need a +5 in CHA but its definitely a plus. A +4 will do just fine. Combine this with Tough and Resilient CON and you'll easily have over a +10 Con and have high HP with high AC and you have a high staying power with Damage Output. Because who cares how much damage you're dealing when nothing can hit you.
I guarantee you build a Paladin around these and min 16 Con and Cha and you'll repeatedly be able to tank and kill most things you'll fight up to lvl 9 for sure.
I'll say this one last time. All more attacks do is allow you to Smite faster. This only changes total smite damage a round and not total smite damage per combat.
Lets do a math experiment. I doubt ther will be much of a difference on a turn by turn bases between a S&B and a PAM Paladin. For this we'll assume 16 STR against a fiend for max smites. Lvl 20 characters. This will be what they can max do given actions and bonus actions.
S&B longsword:
Deals 1d8 for longsword, 1d8 improved divine smite, 6d8 Divine Smite, repeat for second attack, and 5d10 Banishing Smite bonus action. This gives you:
16d8+5d10+6 =
Max Crit. 362 Max. 184 Avg. 103. Min. 27
PAM w/Halberd:
Deals 1d10 for longsword, 1d8 improved divine smite, 6d8 divine smite, repeat for 2nd attack. Third Attack is 1d4 for bonus action attack, 1d8 improved divine smite, and 6d8 divine smite. This gives you:
2d10+1d4+21d8+9 =
Max Crit. 393 Max. 201 Avg. 115.5 Min. 33
As you can see the biggest difference between the two is 31 points for Max Crits but narrows down to 6 points at minimum damage.
These little increases to damage on numbers that immediately start dropping off from here are not worth the loss of an +5 to AC at the most at this level. You are talking the difference between a 23 AC and a 28 AC with +2 Plate and +3 Shield.
Couple things.
1. Additional attack means more chance to crit means better chance to utilize Divine Smite.
2. PAM allows you to attack the first enemy/round that wants to attack you due to 10ft. reach and attack of opportunity. That is additional damage the s&b doesn't get since he needs to wait for an enemy to leave his threat area as opposed to enter it. You can't add it in your scenario because it's in a void but in order to determine the usefulness of that everyone needs to ask themselves a question: how many times have I been approached by an attacking monster and didn't use a reaction? All it takes is a) them acting first b) distance being longer than a 30ft. run for it to have an effect.
That is an additional attack that will benefit from Improved Smite, Divine Smite (if you choose to use it), another chance of critical hit
3. Additional attack benefits from stuff you may have on you - as we are talking lvl 20, why not consider Holy Weapon for instance? It has a nice 1h duration so it's not a stretch that a Paladin would cast it on himself before entering the evil lair. Except when you are using Banishing Smite, you can't have Holy Weapon, can you? And you absolutely need that spell because it's mitigating the fact that a PAM Paladin can smite 3x vs. S&B 2x.
4. Really no point in comparing min. damage because you are as likely to hit that as you are likely to hit maximum damage - with that many dices we are talking lottery level probabilities here. Optimize around average damage.
5. As for GWM - it has it's uses. +10 damage to each hit is not nothing, esp. since not every monster is that hard to hit and you have ways to mitigate the -5 (advantage, bless). I do believe people made some formulas about that and it is a dpr boost. It's not for every scenario but when you can unleash it, it will be effective.
You mentioned a fiend - a Balor has an AC of 19, at lvl 20 you can easily unleash whatever you want at him with minimal effort. Oh and look, since you have a 10ft. reach you are immune to it's Fire Aura!
1. Yes it means more chances to Crit. I'm not arguing that by any means. However, a single attack isnt going to increase the odds of getting a crotch by any significant margin. Unless your say a champion fighter critting on 18s, 19, and 20s
2. Correct. Again however, unless you're positioned correctly and your DM is just mindlessly throwing enemies at you instead of using tactics this really isnt all two effective. Its insanely effective in hallways and other such choke points. Not much against anything else. Why do I say this? Well as a Paladin main player with 15 years of playing across multiple games and DMs I've spent more time running after things in the open that are trying to get away from the Paladin because hes slow as shit then having perfect scenarios work.
3. You're right but as you mention later on why not prepare something more powerful. Pre casting banishing smite would allow you to do 16d8+10d10+6 in a singl roun of combat. This gives you Max Crit. 462. Max. 234 Avg. 128 Min. 32. At this point Holy weapons Max. 32 Avg. 18 is in consequential in it only coming close in Avg. Damage giving prep spells. Prep Spells are irrelevant in this though as it's not increasing the single divide and it's not going to increase damage over time substantially enough to matter in a singular class. Further we are currently talking single round damage. It matters not what spell I use to boost my single round damage with a 1 handed longsword when you cant do the same with a glaive. As I've repeatedly said though it matters very little what's done in Paladin v Paladin as the end result on similar characters with different weapons is always going to be a marginal difference at best given a set amount of time.
4. Minimum damage potential absolutely matters. There is a big difference between dealing 6 damage before dice are rolled and 46. Anyone who says other wise doesnt understand the concept of min/maxing which is maximizing your minimum and Maximum potential.
5. I really dont think you completely understand what GWM can do in the right build. Yes some people have made maps but I'm telling you right now they had no idea this build could be made.
So I'll issue you a challenge right now to prove to you that GWM can most Certainly out perform PAM. You can make what ever PAM Paladin you want and we will see what has more single round damage across all categories and which has a higher hit percentage.
Restrictions: First this is going to be all about melee Combat no ranged attacks. Second for Magic items you can only have 1 legendary, 2 Very Rare, 3 Rare items, and uncommon items are what ever. If you multiclass it's no more than 3 levels that are not Paladin. Fourth you'll have two turns before combat begins to prepare spell or abilities. Fifth only point buy. Finally the final consideration is can your character actually survive fighting a pit fiend alone.
I guarantee you the PAM doesnt touch this build.
1. Or a Vengeance Paladin who can get advantage on every one of their 3 attack rolls. That is 26% for a crit here.
2. Please spare the "15 years of maining Paladin" flex ;-)
3. I'm not really sure what point you are making here. That precast spells are irrelevant? Unless it's an ambush or fighting game, you more often than not absolutely have at least 6 seconds to prepare yourself. And yes, Holy Weapon is weaker than Banishing Smite in a single round damage but it's an 1h long spell that can be used during multiple fights. I value practical experience and I would have it on me when entering any time of the day.
4. Sure, minimum flat numbers matter. Minimum dice damage doesn't. More often than not if you are raising your damage, you are raising your minimum damage anyway. I am just saying that comparing minimum and maximum damage from the dice you roll is irrelevant because it's statistically insignificant.
The chance to roll 16 damage on a 16d8 roll is the same as rolling 128 - in both cases it's 0.0000000000004%
You may be playing D&D for additional 15 years and you may never see it happen. Why did I take arbitrary 16d8? Because my online dice probabilty calculator doesn't count further, it's that low.
5. What makes you think I don't understand what GWM can do? It really is a simple feat. Gives damage, reduces accuracy. As long as you can mitigate the accuracy loss or as long as you are hitting stuff that is easy to hit but is a damage sponge, it's an excellent feat.
You say "this build" - what build are you talking about?
Why do you issue a challenge GWM vs. PAM to me? What in this discussion has given you the impression that it is needed? I have never once said anything about one being better than the other. It's a weird comparison because most builds that utilize PAM take GWM anyway.
If I may throw in my two cents, precast spells often do matter. When I run full paladins, I often have a warhorse or a pegasus that I keep around almost indefinitely via find steed or find greater steed. I may not have bless up or even prepared when a fight breaks out, though I may likely cast it once a fight seems unavoidable. Having a mount also throws Mounted Combatant into the mix.
In a 1v1 against another paladin, I think I'd run a redemption paladin for the channel divinity rebuke the violent. Getting crit-smited suddenly doesn't seem too bad if I can survive that hit and throw that damage back at the attacker.
The inclusion of magic items would not make an ideal scenario for comparing two character builds of the same base class, as the game and class were not designed around them. Artificers, sure, but not paladins.
The game is also built around team gameplay involving combat, social and exploration encounters. You can build a high strength PAM/GWM/sentinel paladin, but I imagine he'd have trouble getting a disgruntled vizier to let the group talk to a king when a colossal turtle mountain thing is both seen over the horizon and facing this way. Spiking strength and constitution makes a reliable attacker, but dumping intelligence or wisdom to do so makes it hard for such a character to tell which enemy is actually the biggest threat. Yes, the lich over there can cast disintegrate but the hordes of zombies and skeletons shambling to the nearby village can decimate a populace quickly. Such is the nature of a min-max.
It all depends on what's going on. Let the DM enable you to be the greatest hero (or villain) out there. Let's work together to make that character.
Oh I completely understand D&D is a team game. However, an in contrary to your commentthe game is designed for magic items. This being said though it makes build encounters more challenging.
This all being said the character I'm talking about that deals over 100 damage at the minimum for 3 turns and deals about 90 damage before dice are rolled.
I've said this repeatedly on thus forum now as Paladins dumping ASI into STR as a Paladin isnt worth it. Most of our damage isnt reliant on STR and there are so many magic items that boost STR that a 13 or 14 STR is doable until such items are recieved. As such to prove a point I have a 14 STR Paladin that is the only thing currently keeping the Party from dying.
I completely understand how a low-strength frontliner can still keep a party going. I've run a charisma-oriented BM fighter who mainly taunted enemies into attacking him with charisma (deception) checks while he dodged and rallied his allies. Highly silly, probably shouldn't have worked, but got the job done.
Paladins like to roll lots of dice rather than slap with a modifier; leave the latter to barbarians and fighters. This is a reason why I like to dip paladin for melee sorcerer builds. It takes advantage of font of magic's slot redistribution to allow efficient slot use for smiting. Note here that it only really works for slot levels 1 and 2, as 3-5 cost extra sorcery points. Not to mention almost endless uses of shield.
Hexblade bladelocks can dip paladin to spike nova damage even higher, but they can't sustain it without further paladin or other caster investments. With said investments, however, you can possibly double-smite, splattering most enemies that dare stand before you or provoke AoO without running out of steam too quickly.
That said, smiting still requires a hit with a melee weapon attack using a melee weapon. That's where the idea of high strength being ideal comes from. Having a +8 to hit at level 17 won't reliably land on the 25 AC tarrasque, which a DM may consider throwing at such a high level character's party. Dipping barbarian for reckless attack can help with this.
What would be the ideal race for a paladin? Lots of people I know like using mountain dwarves, dragonborn, half elves, half orcs and variant humans, but any assortment of boosted strength, constitution and/or charisma can theoretically work. Dexterity paladins aren't off the table, either.
1. The increase while a buff to Paladins is as I've stated now multiple times not comparable to what fighters and Barbarians can do. However it's still an increase.
2. The years of experience playing directly goes into a topic that's covering Sentinel vs Positioning or are you implying that 1st year players are as knowledge on the difference between the two. Sentinels only advantage over positioning is hitting things that disengage.
3. Ok first you're responding to me respond to Rexir2 about single round damage not damage over time or did you not glean this from previous posts on min maxing a Paladin. Also have you forgot it was you yourself that proposed do iui ng more damage in a single round than damage over a longer period? My stance has and remains that your sacrificing more survivability to deal damage a single round faster as the difference between the two is negligible given smites. You also seem to not understand what I'm saying about prepatory spells being irrelevant in this instance. They are not irrelevant in combat. They are irrelevant when discussing single round damage on a single class that's just armed with different weapons as with smite spells damage delt over timed is unchanged with in that class. Simply because the different classes can cast the same spells at different times.
4. First your first two sentences are absolutely illogical given the Nature of D&D. There is no such thing as minimum flat numbers. Theres just flat numbers. When talking about damage though you are never just dealing flat damage. You are dealing the flat damage added to what ever the damage roll is. For the most part minimum damage doesnt change until you factor in abilities. In this very nature though so do flat numbers so you're entire begining arguement is flawed.
The importance of minimum and maximum is absolutely relevant to any min/max discussion for multiple reason.
First is the AVG damages doesnt properly reflect damage that's dealt, specifically when Smites are invloved. As I've shown in this specific thread. If we are talking just a longsword then we are talking an 84 point difference between max damage and average and 156 point difference between max crit and avg crit.
Second discussing minimum and maximum damage isnt about dealing it. It's about the spread of the potential. It be one thing if we were talking Barbarians damage as min max and avg dont have such a wide margin but Paladin can burn as many spell slots to boost damage as they have attacks and bonus actions. This creates a huge margin that can change drastically based off of this.
Yes the Margin is small I have never once implied it wasnt. This being said I myself have come close to maxing smites as have many other as seen from various live streams. Joe Manganiello has, with Arkhan done 345 damage in a turn during a live stream.
5. This was a misunderstanding on my point cause the bulk of what was talked about between me and Rexir had to do comparing different build. I.e. polearm vs great weapon vs longsword. However built right GWM can be used all the time.
That was a typo with "minimum flat numbers" - should've been just "flat numbers" but I rewrote that sentence from something else and it stayed that way. Not gonna edit it now since you responded to it but ok.
Moving on.
When you say that avg. damage doesn't properly reflect damage dealt you are simply losing me. It's against any kind of math and statistics known to man.
The reason there is greater difference between avg. crit vs. max crit and normal hit vs. normal hit max dmg is because of the sheer number of dice thrown. But guess what? The more dice you throw, the less chance you have for max damage. It evens out. Max total crit may be well beyond in points vs. avg. crit but you still use average damage because you have no chance of rolling that.
The less dice you throw the more chance you have for max damage. It's a simple as that. You have shown nothing to convince me that avg doesn't matter because of smites. It absolutely does matter.
Where did Joe roll this damage? I'd like to see it. The only mention of him doing any significant damage is his 135 against Vecna in Critical Role stream.
And where did I suggest doing damage in single turn vs. over period of time? I don't know where I suggested it. The only thing I said is that I value Holy Weapon more than Banishing Smite because it has better utility (3 hits and you have closed the damage difference and you still have one hour left of buff).
In fact - I have alluded to the opposite with my mentions of reaction from PAM (meaning that you get additional attacks over the course of combat as a reaction against enemy approaching you within 10ft. reach which means more chance to crit and more chance to smite).
As for no2. - I have never said anything about Sentinel. Only about Polearm Master. You lose initiative, a melee attacker comes your way and gets whamed in the face once he is 10ft. from you, before he gets the chance to attack you. The only way this does not come up is if you always win initative and are always 30ft. or less from enemy or you don't get attacked by melee attackers at all.
Did I ever say average numbers didnt matter? No I said average damage doesnt properly reflect the damage Paladins can deal. There is a clear difference you might want to understand it.
Here's the article on Joe. Correction it was 315 not 345. https://www.google.com/amp/s/comicbook.com/gaming/amp/2019/01/11/dungeons-and-dragons-joe-manganiello-arkhan-the-cruel/
You're quote in response to mine avoiding damage and doing damage over time
"How about everyone else in the party who will benefit from faster ending the encounter?"
That was my take aways specifically because the quote you quoted me was in regards to avoiding being hit to deal the damage. This was the end of your first response.
As for 2. Apologies. On bringing up Sentinel still was thinking of when I first brought it up and why I did.