My group is in the planning stages of a game set in Cerilia (Birthright) to test out the new supplements from Matt Coleville, and I'm considering a paladin. He would be sort of an avatar of Anduiras, or at least a creature spawned from one of his champions at Deismaar. (I don't think we're really going to do anything with Bloodlines, so this is all color.)
We're starting at level 3, and I was thinking an Oath of Conquest paladin might be fun, so I wanted to lean into the fear effects that subclass uses. I settled on Leonin, in large part because the Daunting Roar feature gets me a fear ability right off the bat and will synergize well with Aura of Conquest at level 7. Leonin look like they make good paladins, but the stats don't actually seem that great to me for Conquest pallys because so much of the fear depends on saves whose DC is driven by my Cha mod (Channel Divinity, Wrathful Smite, Fear). So I decided to use the TCoE option to switch the stats to +2 Cha and +1 Str, which I thought was still appropriate to a majestic leonine god-creature.
I also decided that I would start at Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1 and put off taking the Oath for a level. This gets me access to a couple of cantrips (Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade, both justified as being an Ehrshegh-like creature), spells like Cause Fear, and crucially the ability to use Charisma as my combat stat. This lets me focus on Charisma and Constitution and not have a 3rd stat to buff. (Boosting Con more also helps with the Daunting Roar DC!)
I was thinking of picking up Dueling for the Fighting Style and going sword-and-board. If I do that, Shield Master actually becomes fairly useful even with Jeremy Crawford's ruling that Bonus Actions have to come after the triggering event, because Frightened creatures in my Aura of Conquest can't stand back up, even though they get a turn before I do. I don't have very many uses for a Bonus Action anyway, and though I will keep my Strength at 15, Frightened creatures will have Disadvantage on the check to avoid getting knocked prone.
The other main feat I was considering was the UA Spear Mastery (or possibly Warhammer Mastery). As the tank, I should be on the front lines, and it probably wouldn't be uncommon to be in a situation where I can set the spear, but the biggest thing is using a Bonus Action to extend reach, as Frightened creatures in the aura have 0 movement. (The other thing that could grant this, obviously, is a Reach weapon, but that eliminates a shield unless I want to use a whip.) I'm not sure how much I really need this, as this is really only useful if they're Frightened and prone, because if they're standing it's probably better to use the BA with Shield Master to try and knock them down-- and if they're already prone or frightened, I don't need to worry that much about attacks from them.) Warhammer Mastery is interesting because it gives me a free check to possibly knock enemies prone. It's Strength-based, but I don't have to take any kind of action to activate it other than just attacking, so hey-- free chance to knock characters prone!
So basically I'm looking at an anthropomorphic lion god-herald in heavy armor, interested in conquering Cerilia for his god/ancestor, who frightens people in combat and knocks them prone. What do you think?
Can you link to the character? It’s easier if we can see everything.
And you can’t both roar (frightening presence) and use your shield to knock someone prone in the same turn. Shield master only works after the attack action. You could roar then next turn attack, then shove with the shield. Maybe you knew that, but it’s unclear from the post.
Are you sure your DM is ok with using UA feats, especially abandoned UA? Either way, you should probably be using your asi to bump up cha.
Booming blade is fine, but after level 5 when you get your second attack, you’ll almost always be better off attacking twice than trying to booming blade once. And eldritch blast is a nice ranged option, but you can’t smite from range. Also note the pain in the butt of a somatic component when you are sword and board.
I don't have it up on D&D Beyond because I don't have all the necessary books, but here's what I have right now:
Leonin Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1 Str 15, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 17 HP: 16 + 1d10 + 1d8 (haven't rolled yet) Speed: 35'
Proficiency: +2 All armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons Wisdom, Charisma saves 2 from Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion (Paladin); 1 from Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, or Survival (Leonin).
Fighting Style: Dueling. When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon. (The other option I've considered is Tunnel Fighter: As a bonus action, you can enter a defensive stance that lasts until the start of your next turn. While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against a creature that moves more than 5 feet while within your reach.)
Special Features: Darkvision 60' Claws (1d4 unarmed slashing) Daunting Roar Divine Sense Lay on Hands Divine Smite Hexblade's Curse: as a BA, choose a creature within 30'; for 1 minute, gain bonus damage equal to Proficiency, crit on 19-20, and regain HP equal to 1 + Cha mod Hex Warrior
Spellcasting: both paladin and warlock spellcasting use Cha, so spell save DC 13, attack mod +5. I was thinking Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade as Warlock cantrips, and possibly Armor of Agathys and Cause Fear for the level 1 spells; Cause Fear fills a niche upcast in a level 2 slot.
Priorities would be to boost Charisma and Constitution. I've seen the ruling from Crawford on not being able to use BAs until after the trigger, which makes Shield Master vastly less useful for most builds, but still useful here; once I pick up the aura at Paladin 7, a prone enemy can't stand since they have no movement. As long as they remain Frightened, they remain prone and have a disadvantage to hit me (due to being frightened and prone) while I have the advantage to hit them (due to prone).
I didn't realize that Spear Master had been abandoned; I'll drop that idea. If they're prone and frightened, being out of reach doesn't add much anyway. I figured that Eldritch Blast gave him a ranged option, at least, even though he can't smite with it and won't have the invocations to really boost its damage. Really, any decent ranged cantrip will work there. I'll have to think about those cantrips. I had thought about BB mostly as a way to keep enemies from moving past me, but a shove with an attack might be better than a little extra damage anyway. It's a good point about the somatic component; I don't anticipate being able to get War Caster, at least not at any reasonable point.
First asi should absolutely be cha and con, as you say. An alternative could be resilient con and some half feat with a cha bonus like fey touched or telekinetic. You don’t get both until level 8, but it does give you some other options to play with. tunnel fighter has also been abandoned. UA in general is a risky choice — the ones that don’t get abandoned are typically nerfed prior to publication. I wouldn’t build a character around a UA.
People who say the shove from shield master is bad often forget it’s a team game. You knock them down, they can’t get back up as long as you stay within 30 feet, and now the rogue can come wail on the prone enemy and get SA without needing an adjacent ally. Or any other melee ally gets advantage. It’s a battlefield control option That benefits the party, more than a chance for you personally.
A ranged cantrip is nice, but personally I find them overrated. I’ll typically use my action to dash so I can get in melee range and better choose my position instead of the relatively low damage of a cantrip. Granted, there’s always flying enemies, or other times when range is the only option, and EB will be better than a longbow..
My GM is pretty generous, but I feel like I'm pushing things already. I'll avoid UA altogether, I think. And yeah, even if I didn't have the fear aura, my melee teammates would still benefit from a prone opponent.
I don't expect to need a ranged cantrip too often (melee is obviously the best option for this character), but like you said it's nice to have when I need it, and I don't see very many Warlock cantrips that synergize well with this build or fill many gaps. Toll the Dead is a nice cantrip, but largely fills a similar role to EB, and I don't think necrotic damage really fits the character.
I don't like shield master on this build. With how stats are being distributed, I must believe DEX is dumped if not negative, so part of shield master's benefits gets the short end. Instead, might I suggest Skill Expert for this build? If you build by placing your CHA at 17, you could increase CHA to 18 to improve your modifier, and you could take expertise in athletics to make shoving an easier task.
Otherwise, there is awesome synergy with leonin and conquest paladin. There is awesome synergy with conquest sword-n-board paladin and 1 level of hexblade. There are few things you could even nitpick about the foundation.
The only things I'd suggest is to take another level of hexblade at some point, I'd recommend after you access your aura of fear, so your EBs become significant with agonizing blast invocation, and to take warcaster as your second feat. Conquest paladin's concentration isn't the most important thing, so it's not like it warrants res:con, but warcaster does help and allows you to cast while your hands are full with a sword and shield.
Thanks! I'm glad to hear I'm on the right path. I thought I'd found some good synergy, but synergy alone doesn't make for a good build. I'd thought about Dragonborn for the Dragon Fear feat, but I won't be getting as many feats as I'd like already, and even with a large-radius AoE fear I was afraid the aura damage would break it pretty often- too often to justify a feat. (Though the fact that Anduiras is more associated with lions than dragons was a big factor for me too.)
I see what you mean with Shield Master being suboptimal; my first ASI will go to even out Cha and Con, and the 2nd to bring Cha to 20. I'll probably leave Dex where I is, so even with the bonus I'm still likely to fail a lot of Dex saves. But a bonus helps, and the part I like is really the free shove. I probably won't be boosting Strength either, so I don't think giving up attacks to shove will be a useful option most of the time, but a free roll is nice and will still synergize with the aura.
Even if you don't boost strength, you would still have good athletics. Personally, I view sword and board damage as being near inconsequential unless you're smiting or have the curse active compared to a GWM/SS build. In that respect, using your action to shove prone multiple times is just as effective if not better because it lends further to battle field control, and giving the big gun aforementioned builds the advantage necessary to do their jobs.
since youre going conquest pally id suggest undead warlock over hex. That transform and blasting gives a fear save once per turn on an enemy. if you take undead (not undying) warlock upto lvl 3 you can grab agonizing blast, eldritch mind and pact of the tome so you can get shillelleigh that would make a club atk be done using CHA instead of str.
Are you point buy? If so, Dex 10 Con 15 -> Con 16 is a good idea. You qualify for heavy armor - wear it.
HP: 16 + 1d10 + 1d8 (haven't rolled yet)
Ugh, I hate rolling for hit points. It is what it is, though.
Speed: 35' Proficiency: +2 All armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons Wisdom, Charisma saves 2 from Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion (Paladin); 1 from Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, or Survival (Leonin).
You said you're using TCoE, so the Leonin skills should be able to be any skill, and you're leaving out your Background, which should be another two skills. If you're using generic backgrounds, it's any 2 skills. I recommend Athletics, Persuasion, Perception, and then your favorite two from Deception, Insight, Investigation, and Arcana.
Fighting Style: Dueling. When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon. (The other option I've considered is Tunnel Fighter: As a bonus action, you can enter a defensive stance that lasts until the start of your next turn. While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against a creature that moves more than 5 feet while within your reach.)
Tunnel Fighter is grossly overpowered. If you're allowed to take it, do so - and lean into using a halberd. If not, Defense is better than Dueling.
Special Features: Darkvision 60' Claws (1d4 unarmed slashing) Daunting Roar Divine Sense Lay on Hands Divine Smite Hexblade's Curse: as a BA, choose a creature within 30'; for 1 minute, gain bonus damage equal to Proficiency, crit on 19-20, and regain HP equal to 1 + Cha mod Hex Warrior
Spellcasting: both paladin and warlock spellcasting use Cha, so spell save DC 13, attack mod +5. I was thinking Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade as Warlock cantrips, and possibly Armor of Agathys and Cause Fear for the level 1 spells; Cause Fear fills a niche upcast in a level 2 slot.
Are you climbing Paladin? Booming Blade will get much less useful at Paladin 5, but before then, it and Green-Flame Blade are excellent. Eldritch Blast has no synergy with you until/unless you take some invocations - without them, you're better off with other invocations. If you're taking Tunnel Fighter, Create Bonfire is even better than usual. Not taking Hex as an L1 spell is an uncommonly bold choice, but it's entirely up to you, for sure. Remember, Hex makes it easier to shove targets prone.
Lol I literally posted a similar build in another thread. The only thing I wouldve changed is make the warlock dip Undead patron as it gives you another reliable source of fear.
Is there a logic to having two odd ability scores for Con 15 and Cha 17?
I would just have two 16s. You can still have Con 16 and Cha 18, at level four, by putting both points of the ASI into Cha. Which is the same place you will be with one point in each at level four. The only difference is for three levels, you will only be a +2 modifier in Con, instead of +3. Not huge, most likely, but I will take a +3 over a +2 from level 1-3 and its exactly the same at level four.
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My group is in the planning stages of a game set in Cerilia (Birthright) to test out the new supplements from Matt Coleville, and I'm considering a paladin. He would be sort of an avatar of Anduiras, or at least a creature spawned from one of his champions at Deismaar. (I don't think we're really going to do anything with Bloodlines, so this is all color.)
We're starting at level 3, and I was thinking an Oath of Conquest paladin might be fun, so I wanted to lean into the fear effects that subclass uses. I settled on Leonin, in large part because the Daunting Roar feature gets me a fear ability right off the bat and will synergize well with Aura of Conquest at level 7. Leonin look like they make good paladins, but the stats don't actually seem that great to me for Conquest pallys because so much of the fear depends on saves whose DC is driven by my Cha mod (Channel Divinity, Wrathful Smite, Fear). So I decided to use the TCoE option to switch the stats to +2 Cha and +1 Str, which I thought was still appropriate to a majestic leonine god-creature.
I also decided that I would start at Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1 and put off taking the Oath for a level. This gets me access to a couple of cantrips (Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade, both justified as being an Ehrshegh-like creature), spells like Cause Fear, and crucially the ability to use Charisma as my combat stat. This lets me focus on Charisma and Constitution and not have a 3rd stat to buff. (Boosting Con more also helps with the Daunting Roar DC!)
I was thinking of picking up Dueling for the Fighting Style and going sword-and-board. If I do that, Shield Master actually becomes fairly useful even with Jeremy Crawford's ruling that Bonus Actions have to come after the triggering event, because Frightened creatures in my Aura of Conquest can't stand back up, even though they get a turn before I do. I don't have very many uses for a Bonus Action anyway, and though I will keep my Strength at 15, Frightened creatures will have Disadvantage on the check to avoid getting knocked prone.
The other main feat I was considering was the UA Spear Mastery (or possibly Warhammer Mastery). As the tank, I should be on the front lines, and it probably wouldn't be uncommon to be in a situation where I can set the spear, but the biggest thing is using a Bonus Action to extend reach, as Frightened creatures in the aura have 0 movement. (The other thing that could grant this, obviously, is a Reach weapon, but that eliminates a shield unless I want to use a whip.) I'm not sure how much I really need this, as this is really only useful if they're Frightened and prone, because if they're standing it's probably better to use the BA with Shield Master to try and knock them down-- and if they're already prone or frightened, I don't need to worry that much about attacks from them.) Warhammer Mastery is interesting because it gives me a free check to possibly knock enemies prone. It's Strength-based, but I don't have to take any kind of action to activate it other than just attacking, so hey-- free chance to knock characters prone!
So basically I'm looking at an anthropomorphic lion god-herald in heavy armor, interested in conquering Cerilia for his god/ancestor, who frightens people in combat and knocks them prone. What do you think?
Can you link to the character? It’s easier if we can see everything.
And you can’t both roar (frightening presence) and use your shield to knock someone prone in the same turn. Shield master only works after the attack action. You could roar then next turn attack, then shove with the shield. Maybe you knew that, but it’s unclear from the post.
Are you sure your DM is ok with using UA feats, especially abandoned UA? Either way, you should probably be using your asi to bump up cha.
Booming blade is fine, but after level 5 when you get your second attack, you’ll almost always be better off attacking twice than trying to booming blade once. And eldritch blast is a nice ranged option, but you can’t smite from range. Also note the pain in the butt of a somatic component when you are sword and board.
I don't have it up on D&D Beyond because I don't have all the necessary books, but here's what I have right now:
Leonin Paladin 2/Warlock (Hexblade) 1
Str 15, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 17
HP: 16 + 1d10 + 1d8 (haven't rolled yet)
Speed: 35'
Proficiency: +2
All armor, shields, simple weapons, martial weapons
Wisdom, Charisma saves
2 from Athletics, Insight, Intimidation, Medicine, Persuasion, and Religion (Paladin); 1 from Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, or Survival (Leonin).
Fighting Style: Dueling. When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon. (The other option I've considered is Tunnel Fighter: As a bonus action, you can enter a defensive stance that lasts until the start of your next turn. While in your defensive stance, you can make opportunity attacks without using your reaction, and you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against a creature that moves more than 5 feet while within your reach.)
Special Features:
Darkvision 60'
Claws (1d4 unarmed slashing)
Daunting Roar
Divine Sense
Lay on Hands
Divine Smite
Hexblade's Curse: as a BA, choose a creature within 30'; for 1 minute, gain bonus damage equal to Proficiency, crit on 19-20, and regain HP equal to 1 + Cha mod
Hex Warrior
Spellcasting: both paladin and warlock spellcasting use Cha, so spell save DC 13, attack mod +5.
I was thinking Eldritch Blast and Booming Blade as Warlock cantrips, and possibly Armor of Agathys and Cause Fear for the level 1 spells; Cause Fear fills a niche upcast in a level 2 slot.
Priorities would be to boost Charisma and Constitution. I've seen the ruling from Crawford on not being able to use BAs until after the trigger, which makes Shield Master vastly less useful for most builds, but still useful here; once I pick up the aura at Paladin 7, a prone enemy can't stand since they have no movement. As long as they remain Frightened, they remain prone and have a disadvantage to hit me (due to being frightened and prone) while I have the advantage to hit them (due to prone).
I didn't realize that Spear Master had been abandoned; I'll drop that idea. If they're prone and frightened, being out of reach doesn't add much anyway. I figured that Eldritch Blast gave him a ranged option, at least, even though he can't smite with it and won't have the invocations to really boost its damage. Really, any decent ranged cantrip will work there. I'll have to think about those cantrips. I had thought about BB mostly as a way to keep enemies from moving past me, but a shove with an attack might be better than a little extra damage anyway. It's a good point about the somatic component; I don't anticipate being able to get War Caster, at least not at any reasonable point.
First asi should absolutely be cha and con, as you say.
An alternative could be resilient con and some half feat with a cha bonus like fey touched or telekinetic. You don’t get both until level 8, but it does give you some other options to play with.
tunnel fighter has also been abandoned. UA in general is a risky choice — the ones that don’t get abandoned are typically nerfed prior to publication. I wouldn’t build a character around a UA.
People who say the shove from shield master is bad often forget it’s a team game. You knock them down, they can’t get back up as long as you stay within 30 feet, and now the rogue can come wail on the prone enemy and get SA without needing an adjacent ally. Or any other melee ally gets advantage. It’s a battlefield control option That benefits the party, more than a chance for you personally.
A ranged cantrip is nice, but personally I find them overrated. I’ll typically use my action to dash so I can get in melee range and better choose my position instead of the relatively low damage of a cantrip. Granted, there’s always flying enemies, or other times when range is the only option, and EB will be better than a longbow..
My GM is pretty generous, but I feel like I'm pushing things already. I'll avoid UA altogether, I think. And yeah, even if I didn't have the fear aura, my melee teammates would still benefit from a prone opponent.
I don't expect to need a ranged cantrip too often (melee is obviously the best option for this character), but like you said it's nice to have when I need it, and I don't see very many Warlock cantrips that synergize well with this build or fill many gaps. Toll the Dead is a nice cantrip, but largely fills a similar role to EB, and I don't think necrotic damage really fits the character.
I don't like shield master on this build. With how stats are being distributed, I must believe DEX is dumped if not negative, so part of shield master's benefits gets the short end. Instead, might I suggest Skill Expert for this build? If you build by placing your CHA at 17, you could increase CHA to 18 to improve your modifier, and you could take expertise in athletics to make shoving an easier task.
Otherwise, there is awesome synergy with leonin and conquest paladin. There is awesome synergy with conquest sword-n-board paladin and 1 level of hexblade. There are few things you could even nitpick about the foundation.
The only things I'd suggest is to take another level of hexblade at some point, I'd recommend after you access your aura of fear, so your EBs become significant with agonizing blast invocation, and to take warcaster as your second feat. Conquest paladin's concentration isn't the most important thing, so it's not like it warrants res:con, but warcaster does help and allows you to cast while your hands are full with a sword and shield.
Thanks! I'm glad to hear I'm on the right path. I thought I'd found some good synergy, but synergy alone doesn't make for a good build. I'd thought about Dragonborn for the Dragon Fear feat, but I won't be getting as many feats as I'd like already, and even with a large-radius AoE fear I was afraid the aura damage would break it pretty often- too often to justify a feat. (Though the fact that Anduiras is more associated with lions than dragons was a big factor for me too.)
I see what you mean with Shield Master being suboptimal; my first ASI will go to even out Cha and Con, and the 2nd to bring Cha to 20. I'll probably leave Dex where I is, so even with the bonus I'm still likely to fail a lot of Dex saves. But a bonus helps, and the part I like is really the free shove. I probably won't be boosting Strength either, so I don't think giving up attacks to shove will be a useful option most of the time, but a free roll is nice and will still synergize with the aura.
Even if you don't boost strength, you would still have good athletics. Personally, I view sword and board damage as being near inconsequential unless you're smiting or have the curse active compared to a GWM/SS build. In that respect, using your action to shove prone multiple times is just as effective if not better because it lends further to battle field control, and giving the big gun aforementioned builds the advantage necessary to do their jobs.
since youre going conquest pally id suggest undead warlock over hex. That transform and blasting gives a fear save once per turn on an enemy. if you take undead (not undying) warlock upto lvl 3 you can grab agonizing blast, eldritch mind and pact of the tome so you can get shillelleigh that would make a club atk be done using CHA instead of str.
Are you point buy? If so, Dex 10 Con 15 -> Con 16 is a good idea. You qualify for heavy armor - wear it.
Ugh, I hate rolling for hit points. It is what it is, though.
You said you're using TCoE, so the Leonin skills should be able to be any skill, and you're leaving out your Background, which should be another two skills. If you're using generic backgrounds, it's any 2 skills. I recommend Athletics, Persuasion, Perception, and then your favorite two from Deception, Insight, Investigation, and Arcana.
Tunnel Fighter is grossly overpowered. If you're allowed to take it, do so - and lean into using a halberd. If not, Defense is better than Dueling.
Are you climbing Paladin? Booming Blade will get much less useful at Paladin 5, but before then, it and Green-Flame Blade are excellent. Eldritch Blast has no synergy with you until/unless you take some invocations - without them, you're better off with other invocations. If you're taking Tunnel Fighter, Create Bonfire is even better than usual. Not taking Hex as an L1 spell is an uncommonly bold choice, but it's entirely up to you, for sure. Remember, Hex makes it easier to shove targets prone.
Lol I literally posted a similar build in another thread. The only thing I wouldve changed is make the warlock dip Undead patron as it gives you another reliable source of fear.
Is there a logic to having two odd ability scores for Con 15 and Cha 17?
I would just have two 16s. You can still have Con 16 and Cha 18, at level four, by putting both points of the ASI into Cha. Which is the same place you will be with one point in each at level four. The only difference is for three levels, you will only be a +2 modifier in Con, instead of +3. Not huge, most likely, but I will take a +3 over a +2 from level 1-3 and its exactly the same at level four.