Without going into details, my character has a spinoff character (getting his own plotline secretly from the others). This happening from a pact from a Great Old One. The character himself is a dark lord on the rise. Everything about him has been screaming Paladin, especially how I am playing him.
If I had my choice I would do a Vengeance/Hexblade and pact of the blade. But I'm pretty sure my DM will say he has to be Great Old One. I want him to be outputting ridiculous damage. So I wanted to know if Vengeance will still work or should I try Conquest or Oathbreaker instead because I can't have Hexblade. Also what warlock should I take with Great Old One and pact of the blade to help my Paladin do damage similar to Hexblade if that's even possible
The only thing I’m thinking of is taking tasha’s hideous laughter. After all, never underestimate the power of an enemy being prone as a melee combatant.
This may sound a bit strange but I'm running a neutral good Vengeance Paladin (of Torm) who is also a Great Old One warlock able to go with Pact of the Blade. His patron is "Yad-Saddath", the only Eldar God from the Cthulhu mythos of HP Lovecraft that is completely benevolent towards Life. Technically, the Paladin could even be Lawful Good and still have a Pact with Yad-Saddath. For details on Yad Saddath, just search the Internet for the name.
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Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK! - Me
Of course it's possible to do similar damage, or even better in some cases.
For example, a typical vengeance hexblade elven accuracy build will rely on crit fishing for a powerful double smite. It's a lot of damage, sure, but it's also incredibly resource intensive and limits your scope it's all on one target.
But, I can easily see a goolock conquest paladin make things work just as well. Consider this: by lvl 9, (paladin 6, goolock 3), you'll have access to spiritual weapon and 2nd lvl spell slots that come back on a short rest, and access to EB+AB. Now you can reliably cast SW every fight. Lay down hex but if you'd like with a first lvl paladin spell slots, since SW is a non-concentration option. So, unlike the hexblade, this damage is clearly sustainable.
You can even take eldritch smite, so that the possibility to double smite on crits is available. The only difference from hexblade is you won't crit as frequently, but still, if it happens it's there as a possible option.
Of course it's possible to do similar damage, or even better in some cases.
For example, a typical vengeance hexblade elven accuracy build will rely on crit fishing for a powerful double smite. It's a lot of damage, sure, but it's also incredibly resource intensive and limits your scope it's all on one target.
But, I can easily see a goolock conquest paladin make things work just as well. Consider this: by lvl 9, (paladin 6, goolock 3), you'll have access to spiritual weapon and 2nd lvl spell slots that come back on a short rest, and access to EB+AB. Now you can reliably cast SW every fight. Lay down hex but if you'd like with a first lvl paladin spell slots, since SW is a non-concentration option. So, unlike the hexblade, this damage is clearly sustainable.
You can even take eldritch smite, so that the possibility to double smite on crits is available. The only difference from hexblade is you won't crit as frequently, but still, if it happens it's there as a possible option.
So, it's still a pretty good multi class.
Agreed, but in a boss fight or some critical situation, the double smite possibility of Pact of the Blade could do some insane burst damage. But if he wants sustained damage you are 100% correct. Double smites and your Vow of Enmity is a lot of resources and only for that one particular foe.
Cgarciao, you are the one who showed me that something like Spirit Shroud, used over a longer fight, can easily do more damage than you would have gotten from that one spell slot used for a divine or eldritch smite particularly if you have that 3rd attack from PAM. Now Spirit Shroud is a 3rd level spell, but as soon as I can cast it, it would be in my arsenal.
Great Old One warlock dip isn't really going to help your damage at all. What it will do is slightly round out your utility tool set (limited telepathy, ranged cantrip, whatever warlock spells you pick) and thematic spookiness at the cost of delaying your primary feature progression by a single level. You also slightly alleviate the burden on the paladin's daily spell pool with a short rest slot for a spare smite, though if that's your goal you'll probably eventually want to take a second warlock level to push that up to two short rest slots, though the costs in paladin advancement compound.
As for the paladin subclass, if you want to focus on damage, then Vengeance is the way to go. That or Oath Broken for further dark knight flavor if your DM allows it. Either way you'll probably want Polearm Master if you can be confident that your DM will drop you a magic spear or halberd by mid levels, preferably at level one via variant human or custom lineage. Maybe Great Weapon Master instead if you're not as confident about favorable weapon drops. Or both, if you're super confident.
That said, the spooky, mind-affecting flavor of the Great Old One dip meshes really well thematically with the Conquest Paladin's fear-based lockdown tank gimmick. Damage will be lower as you'll probably want to prioritize Save DCs and Concentration over Weapon Feats with your ASIs, plus as a tanky build you'll definitely want a shield instead of a more damaging two handed weapon, but you'll still be a paladin so you can still call on divine smite when you need to put a hurt on something, and you'll be slightly tougher since higher cha mod sooner will mean higher saves via aura of protection. For that build you might still go for a human - probably grabbing resiliant con or sentinel or even alert (there's a big difference between locking down enemies before their first turn vs. after) at level 1 instead of polearm master or great weapon master.
Alternatively Assimar has a lot of nice bonuses and is a great thematic fit, plus has a frighten feature that, while short on duration, targets a rare charisma save and comes with a small damage buff for the rest of the encounter. Harengon is another strong racial contender, with a bonus to initiative (again, a big deal for a lockdown build) plus bunny hop to help with positioning (conquest has strong oath spells, but none of the teleportation spells that vengeance gets). Eladrin is another strong choice. A permanent Winter-Aspect Eladrin will have the right attitude & disposition plus a racial teleport with a frighten effect on top. Though if you were to play a Winter Eladrin paladin/warlock, you might consider the Fey patronage of the Queen of Air and Darkness as a thematic alternative to a Great Old One patron. Yet another option is Shadar-Kai, with their own teleport attached to a round of damage resistance to help tank hits, plus you'd have the build in thematic connection to go for the Hexblade patron, which is a much stronger dip for you - for the Shield spell even more than the Cha-based melee attacks.
Regardless, your damage would again be lower than a vengeance or oath breaker build, but if you're playing a villainous type dark lord character there's a lot of flavor to be had from 'playing with your food' - shrugging off their attacks, terrifying them, locking them in place, knocking them to the ground unable to get back up (if you 'shove' an enemy prone while their speed is reduced to zero by your aura then they cannot stand back up on their own), giving you time to monologue while simultaneously whispering threats of what you'll do the them (and those they care about) directly into their minds. Maybe you don't even kill them at all, just force them to surrender, break their will, turn them against their former allies out of fear that the consequences of opposing you will be worse than just letting you win. After all, a blade can end a life, but Fear? Fear can end an empire - or forge one.
Maybe this is a personal taste issue, but I really don't like builds that rely on feats via custom lineage or variant human. The character, for story purposes, may be best suited as something else other than the aforementioned, yet that doesn't mean we can't work within those confines to deliver something powerful.
That said, I don't think vengeance is that much stronger than my build. That also said, I think there's an error being made with the assumption that this is going to be a single level dip. Granted, I could also very well be making that same mistake by assuming this is going to be a full multiclass, since OP doesn't exactly hint towards one way or another.
so, my build in specific would be a dueling fighting style conquest paladin. 6 levels bare minimum starting with 16 STR and 17 CHA (assuming a non-v.human race) , so to multiclass into goolock, i'd take 3 to pick up pact of the blade and 2nd level spell slots that recharge on a short rest. along the way, I'd pick up fey touched with hex as my free spell. Invocations? agonizing blast, and improved pact weapon.
Once you get both hex and spiritual weapon up and running, you're looking at 24 DPR at level 9, assuming you hit about 60% of the time. a v.human vengeance paladin of the same level that took PAM, GWM, and bumped up STR at least once will be doing roughly around 19.4 DPR (55.5 raw dpr (30 from gwm, 12 from STR mod, 11 from 2d10, 2.5 from 1d4)*.35) without advantage. Toss in vow of enmity and smites, and this clearly goes way, way up. But you won't always have vow of enmity, and you could be without slots to smite.
Meanwhile, my conquest goolock has better AC thanks to using a shield. It has better saving throws thanks to bumping up CHA. Does it rely on spell slots? Yes, but as established earlier, this multiclass has them on a short rest for our most used spells. That said, this set up can go four whole combat encounters without needing a rest of any type. I would imagine that after four combats, a short rest is due.
Now, the big damage comes from a double smite crit, but so long as you have pact of the blade and the eldritch smite invocation, any warlock paladin can deliver that insane burst damage. It's fun to toss out 16d8s using both 3rd level pact slots. goolocks don't have to miss out on this at all! OP said he wants to know if it's possible, to deliver something similar, and yes, it is.
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Without going into details, my character has a spinoff character (getting his own plotline secretly from the others). This happening from a pact from a Great Old One. The character himself is a dark lord on the rise. Everything about him has been screaming Paladin, especially how I am playing him.
If I had my choice I would do a Vengeance/Hexblade and pact of the blade. But I'm pretty sure my DM will say he has to be Great Old One. I want him to be outputting ridiculous damage. So I wanted to know if Vengeance will still work or should I try Conquest or Oathbreaker instead because I can't have Hexblade. Also what warlock should I take with Great Old One and pact of the blade to help my Paladin do damage similar to Hexblade if that's even possible
The only thing I’m thinking of is taking tasha’s hideous laughter. After all, never underestimate the power of an enemy being prone as a melee combatant.
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This may sound a bit strange but I'm running a neutral good Vengeance Paladin (of Torm) who is also a Great Old One warlock able to go with Pact of the Blade. His patron is "Yad-Saddath", the only Eldar God from the Cthulhu mythos of HP Lovecraft that is completely benevolent towards Life. Technically, the Paladin could even be Lawful Good and still have a Pact with Yad-Saddath. For details on Yad Saddath, just search the Internet for the name.
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!"
- Hunter S. Thompson
When life is bleak, all hope is lost, a wall is at your back, you always have one option left...attack! Attack! ATTACK!
- Me
Of course it's possible to do similar damage, or even better in some cases.
For example, a typical vengeance hexblade elven accuracy build will rely on crit fishing for a powerful double smite. It's a lot of damage, sure, but it's also incredibly resource intensive and limits your scope it's all on one target.
But, I can easily see a goolock conquest paladin make things work just as well. Consider this: by lvl 9, (paladin 6, goolock 3), you'll have access to spiritual weapon and 2nd lvl spell slots that come back on a short rest, and access to EB+AB. Now you can reliably cast SW every fight. Lay down hex but if you'd like with a first lvl paladin spell slots, since SW is a non-concentration option. So, unlike the hexblade, this damage is clearly sustainable.
You can even take eldritch smite, so that the possibility to double smite on crits is available. The only difference from hexblade is you won't crit as frequently, but still, if it happens it's there as a possible option.
So, it's still a pretty good multi class.
Agreed, but in a boss fight or some critical situation, the double smite possibility of Pact of the Blade could do some insane burst damage. But if he wants sustained damage you are 100% correct. Double smites and your Vow of Enmity is a lot of resources and only for that one particular foe.
Cgarciao, you are the one who showed me that something like Spirit Shroud, used over a longer fight, can easily do more damage than you would have gotten from that one spell slot used for a divine or eldritch smite particularly if you have that 3rd attack from PAM. Now Spirit Shroud is a 3rd level spell, but as soon as I can cast it, it would be in my arsenal.
Great Old One warlock dip isn't really going to help your damage at all. What it will do is slightly round out your utility tool set (limited telepathy, ranged cantrip, whatever warlock spells you pick) and thematic spookiness at the cost of delaying your primary feature progression by a single level. You also slightly alleviate the burden on the paladin's daily spell pool with a short rest slot for a spare smite, though if that's your goal you'll probably eventually want to take a second warlock level to push that up to two short rest slots, though the costs in paladin advancement compound.
As for the paladin subclass, if you want to focus on damage, then Vengeance is the way to go. That or Oath Broken for further dark knight flavor if your DM allows it. Either way you'll probably want Polearm Master if you can be confident that your DM will drop you a magic spear or halberd by mid levels, preferably at level one via variant human or custom lineage. Maybe Great Weapon Master instead if you're not as confident about favorable weapon drops. Or both, if you're super confident.
That said, the spooky, mind-affecting flavor of the Great Old One dip meshes really well thematically with the Conquest Paladin's fear-based lockdown tank gimmick. Damage will be lower as you'll probably want to prioritize Save DCs and Concentration over Weapon Feats with your ASIs, plus as a tanky build you'll definitely want a shield instead of a more damaging two handed weapon, but you'll still be a paladin so you can still call on divine smite when you need to put a hurt on something, and you'll be slightly tougher since higher cha mod sooner will mean higher saves via aura of protection. For that build you might still go for a human - probably grabbing resiliant con or sentinel or even alert (there's a big difference between locking down enemies before their first turn vs. after) at level 1 instead of polearm master or great weapon master.
Alternatively Assimar has a lot of nice bonuses and is a great thematic fit, plus has a frighten feature that, while short on duration, targets a rare charisma save and comes with a small damage buff for the rest of the encounter. Harengon is another strong racial contender, with a bonus to initiative (again, a big deal for a lockdown build) plus bunny hop to help with positioning (conquest has strong oath spells, but none of the teleportation spells that vengeance gets). Eladrin is another strong choice. A permanent Winter-Aspect Eladrin will have the right attitude & disposition plus a racial teleport with a frighten effect on top. Though if you were to play a Winter Eladrin paladin/warlock, you might consider the Fey patronage of the Queen of Air and Darkness as a thematic alternative to a Great Old One patron. Yet another option is Shadar-Kai, with their own teleport attached to a round of damage resistance to help tank hits, plus you'd have the build in thematic connection to go for the Hexblade patron, which is a much stronger dip for you - for the Shield spell even more than the Cha-based melee attacks.
Regardless, your damage would again be lower than a vengeance or oath breaker build, but if you're playing a villainous type dark lord character there's a lot of flavor to be had from 'playing with your food' - shrugging off their attacks, terrifying them, locking them in place, knocking them to the ground unable to get back up (if you 'shove' an enemy prone while their speed is reduced to zero by your aura then they cannot stand back up on their own), giving you time to monologue while simultaneously whispering threats of what you'll do the them (and those they care about) directly into their minds. Maybe you don't even kill them at all, just force them to surrender, break their will, turn them against their former allies out of fear that the consequences of opposing you will be worse than just letting you win. After all, a blade can end a life, but Fear? Fear can end an empire - or forge one.
Maybe this is a personal taste issue, but I really don't like builds that rely on feats via custom lineage or variant human. The character, for story purposes, may be best suited as something else other than the aforementioned, yet that doesn't mean we can't work within those confines to deliver something powerful.
That said, I don't think vengeance is that much stronger than my build. That also said, I think there's an error being made with the assumption that this is going to be a single level dip. Granted, I could also very well be making that same mistake by assuming this is going to be a full multiclass, since OP doesn't exactly hint towards one way or another.
so, my build in specific would be a dueling fighting style conquest paladin. 6 levels bare minimum starting with 16 STR and 17 CHA (assuming a non-v.human race) , so to multiclass into goolock, i'd take 3 to pick up pact of the blade and 2nd level spell slots that recharge on a short rest. along the way, I'd pick up fey touched with hex as my free spell. Invocations? agonizing blast, and improved pact weapon.
Once you get both hex and spiritual weapon up and running, you're looking at 24 DPR at level 9, assuming you hit about 60% of the time. a v.human vengeance paladin of the same level that took PAM, GWM, and bumped up STR at least once will be doing roughly around 19.4 DPR (55.5 raw dpr (30 from gwm, 12 from STR mod, 11 from 2d10, 2.5 from 1d4)*.35) without advantage. Toss in vow of enmity and smites, and this clearly goes way, way up. But you won't always have vow of enmity, and you could be without slots to smite.
Meanwhile, my conquest goolock has better AC thanks to using a shield. It has better saving throws thanks to bumping up CHA. Does it rely on spell slots? Yes, but as established earlier, this multiclass has them on a short rest for our most used spells. That said, this set up can go four whole combat encounters without needing a rest of any type. I would imagine that after four combats, a short rest is due.
Now, the big damage comes from a double smite crit, but so long as you have pact of the blade and the eldritch smite invocation, any warlock paladin can deliver that insane burst damage. It's fun to toss out 16d8s using both 3rd level pact slots. goolocks don't have to miss out on this at all! OP said he wants to know if it's possible, to deliver something similar, and yes, it is.