I've never really understood this one. I get that perhaps only gods would be strong enough to make an oath give actual power, and a lot of paladin abilities and the like are very divine based, but why is a paladin assumed to be related to the divine? Your power is stated to come from an oath that you took, words that you promised to abide by, which in turn grant you power. And in the worlds of DnD (most worlds anyway) would it be so outlandish to say that perhaps just the power of swearing your life away, or the amazing willpower that a paladin must posses to swear these oaths, would be enough to gather the arcane power needed to gain your abilities? In the end, I just think there should be some sort of way that could more easily justify a paladin swearing their oath on something other than the gods or a god. And I totally understand that your DM can choose to switch up the class however they wish.
Hm... while I agree that it would be nice to have some ambiguity with how the powers are manifested it does make a distinctive difference in how or why certain character classes are the way they are.
If a paladin could simply swear an oath of the realm and gain power based on their shear will then, to me, it would make them more along the lines of a sorcerer. Meaning a being that is naturally gifted in the ways of magic that all they need to do is "focus" really really hard to manifest their power.
Where as paladins swear to higher power their allegiance and fealty and in return they are given powers to accomplish their patrons goal or intent. If they then break that oath or start to act against the interests of their deity they may lose their abilities or become an oath breaker.
I guess the key difference would be that innate magic users already have magical abilities and can be completely selfish in how they use their power. Where paladins are gifted their abilities to accomplish a goal that is not their own but the goal of their deity.
Whilst I understand your reasoning, the fact that a paladin is assumed to be sworn to a god means that you could literally make a zealous Fighter who's an Acolyte or a devoted War Cleric and RP wise that would be incredibly similar to a paladin. I just think that the assumption or the need for a paladin to be sworn to a divine being can be limiting. I'm not saying that a paladin shouldn't follow a strict oath, but why does that oath have to be created, orchestrated or given power by a deity? I would say that sorcerers are different here as they are born with their power and they are gifted with it, whereas my paladin concept is that the oath of a paladin grants them their power, whether that be because the oath is sworn in an ancestral language that holds great power (think the way spells are cast in the Eragorn series), the willpower required to swear your life away is enough to gather magic or even if you would like it to have some divine connection, and that could just be that the oath was blessed by a priest of great power. And also, what is wrong with a paladin being even a tiny bit similar to a sorcerer? They already share a lot of similarities with clerics, which is another reason why i think the 'zealous holy warrior/crusader' trope should be less of an enforced concept.
There isn't a necessity to any of this really. My point was traditionally speaking paladins are gifted their abilities by a deity of some sort in order to "aid" the deity and they can't simply summon their powers for their own end. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they work for "good" deities nor does that mean that they are some uber pios character. I've always read into paladins more of the sword and spear of their deity and the cleric is the pios link that attempts to spread the word of their beliefs.
Fighters, clerics, and paladins can most certainly be RP'd similarly but they can be RP'd vastly different as well. Simply following a higher power wouldn't necessarily make a fighter a paladin, nor would a war cleric smiting people make them a paladin. A fighter may be a pious person but unless they swear an oath that a higher power listens to, they won't be blessed with their power. A cleric who smites someone can still be the holy word and increase their deities following. There is a bit of nuance between the classes and how or why they receive their abilities. These tropes have been around for a long time and is "generally" the rule of thumb.
Again, my point was the traditional trope that the paladin abides by is they are gifted their abilities by a higher power in exchange for their dedication and service to them. They are not simply able to focus on a powerful oath to the realm and find power they didn't have before. Now, if you're wondering if you can change things up then of course you can. Heck perhaps the realm itself has energy that can be tapped into somehow, but that isn't traditionally how paladins work.
Your home brew version can most definitely work for your campaign if your DM allows it. That's the beauty about homebrews, you can play with things and tweak them to your liking.
Paladins have to be sworn to an ideal, not to a god. They can be total aethiests. The idea that the have to be sworn to a god (or be Lawful Good) are rooted in memories of ages past.
it literally says that the power goes from their devotion to justice: Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
The word /many/ implies a number other than /all/ paladins.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
While I freely admitted they didn't have to be lawful good by any stretch nor that they had to align themselves with a "good" deity. It is however quite refreshing to see that they have written it as the oath itself holds as much power as who or what the oath is to. Thanks for info.
In my world gods are worshipped, but mystical (and there are no alignments). None know if spellpower comes from divine or arcane sources, and there is a powerful paladin order devoted to atheistic universities that are directly opposed to religion.
As you yourself say, its up to the GM. I guess that traditionally though, the idea is that the the paladin throws himself under the heavy burden of a god and gets great power in return, and the god is the continous arbiter as to how the deeds required are beeing upheld. In earlier editions paladins were quite powerful, and it could be argued they gained numeric power at the expense of RPrestrictions. This line of argument doesnt hold anymore though.
5E is slowly progressing in your direction though, as paladins can now be of any alignment.
The answer given per RAW to this source of power question is pretty vague, now that I think about it. If there are no deities involved (as in Clerics), the character does not have to study for the power (like Wizards), and the character is not born with the power (as in Sorcs), then isn't aren't Paladin essentially Warlock that has pledged to concepts instead of demi-gods? The idea is that the Oath itself grants power, but anybody can swear an oath. What is so special about a Paladin's oath that distinguishes it from any other oath?
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I've never really understood this one. I get that perhaps only gods would be strong enough to make an oath give actual power, and a lot of paladin abilities and the like are very divine based, but why is a paladin assumed to be related to the divine? Your power is stated to come from an oath that you took, words that you promised to abide by, which in turn grant you power. And in the worlds of DnD (most worlds anyway) would it be so outlandish to say that perhaps just the power of swearing your life away, or the amazing willpower that a paladin must posses to swear these oaths, would be enough to gather the arcane power needed to gain your abilities? In the end, I just think there should be some sort of way that could more easily justify a paladin swearing their oath on something other than the gods or a god. And I totally understand that your DM can choose to switch up the class however they wish.
Hm... while I agree that it would be nice to have some ambiguity with how the powers are manifested it does make a distinctive difference in how or why certain character classes are the way they are.
If a paladin could simply swear an oath of the realm and gain power based on their shear will then, to me, it would make them more along the lines of a sorcerer. Meaning a being that is naturally gifted in the ways of magic that all they need to do is "focus" really really hard to manifest their power.
Where as paladins swear to higher power their allegiance and fealty and in return they are given powers to accomplish their patrons goal or intent. If they then break that oath or start to act against the interests of their deity they may lose their abilities or become an oath breaker.
I guess the key difference would be that innate magic users already have magical abilities and can be completely selfish in how they use their power. Where paladins are gifted their abilities to accomplish a goal that is not their own but the goal of their deity.
Whilst I understand your reasoning, the fact that a paladin is assumed to be sworn to a god means that you could literally make a zealous Fighter who's an Acolyte or a devoted War Cleric and RP wise that would be incredibly similar to a paladin. I just think that the assumption or the need for a paladin to be sworn to a divine being can be limiting. I'm not saying that a paladin shouldn't follow a strict oath, but why does that oath have to be created, orchestrated or given power by a deity? I would say that sorcerers are different here as they are born with their power and they are gifted with it, whereas my paladin concept is that the oath of a paladin grants them their power, whether that be because the oath is sworn in an ancestral language that holds great power (think the way spells are cast in the Eragorn series), the willpower required to swear your life away is enough to gather magic or even if you would like it to have some divine connection, and that could just be that the oath was blessed by a priest of great power. And also, what is wrong with a paladin being even a tiny bit similar to a sorcerer? They already share a lot of similarities with clerics, which is another reason why i think the 'zealous holy warrior/crusader' trope should be less of an enforced concept.
There isn't a necessity to any of this really. My point was traditionally speaking paladins are gifted their abilities by a deity of some sort in order to "aid" the deity and they can't simply summon their powers for their own end. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they work for "good" deities nor does that mean that they are some uber pios character. I've always read into paladins more of the sword and spear of their deity and the cleric is the pios link that attempts to spread the word of their beliefs.
Fighters, clerics, and paladins can most certainly be RP'd similarly but they can be RP'd vastly different as well. Simply following a higher power wouldn't necessarily make a fighter a paladin, nor would a war cleric smiting people make them a paladin. A fighter may be a pious person but unless they swear an oath that a higher power listens to, they won't be blessed with their power. A cleric who smites someone can still be the holy word and increase their deities following. There is a bit of nuance between the classes and how or why they receive their abilities. These tropes have been around for a long time and is "generally" the rule of thumb.
Again, my point was the traditional trope that the paladin abides by is they are gifted their abilities by a higher power in exchange for their dedication and service to them. They are not simply able to focus on a powerful oath to the realm and find power they didn't have before. Now, if you're wondering if you can change things up then of course you can. Heck perhaps the realm itself has energy that can be tapped into somehow, but that isn't traditionally how paladins work.
Your home brew version can most definitely work for your campaign if your DM allows it. That's the beauty about homebrews, you can play with things and tweak them to your liking.
Paladins have to be sworn to an ideal, not to a god. They can be total aethiests. The idea that the have to be sworn to a god (or be Lawful Good) are rooted in memories of ages past.
it literally says that the power goes from their devotion to justice: Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.
The word /many/ implies a number other than /all/ paladins.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Good call,
While I freely admitted they didn't have to be lawful good by any stretch nor that they had to align themselves with a "good" deity. It is however quite refreshing to see that they have written it as the oath itself holds as much power as who or what the oath is to. Thanks for info.
thanks,
In my world gods are worshipped, but mystical (and there are no alignments). None know if spellpower comes from divine or arcane sources, and there is a powerful paladin order devoted to atheistic universities that are directly opposed to religion.
As you yourself say, its up to the GM. I guess that traditionally though, the idea is that the the paladin throws himself under the heavy burden of a god and gets great power in return, and the god is the continous arbiter as to how the deeds required are beeing upheld. In earlier editions paladins were quite powerful, and it could be argued they gained numeric power at the expense of RPrestrictions. This line of argument doesnt hold anymore though.
5E is slowly progressing in your direction though, as paladins can now be of any alignment.
The answer given per RAW to this source of power question is pretty vague, now that I think about it. If there are no deities involved (as in Clerics), the character does not have to study for the power (like Wizards), and the character is not born with the power (as in Sorcs), then isn't aren't Paladin essentially Warlock that has pledged to concepts instead of demi-gods? The idea is that the Oath itself grants power, but anybody can swear an oath. What is so special about a Paladin's oath that distinguishes it from any other oath?