As my title states I do need help with trying to figure out which ranger subclass would be good. I'm playing in a campaign where I'm deciding to retire my current character for a ranger. We currently have two rogues, a barbarian and a warlock/cleric and a sorcerer. We are playing in theros as well.
The idea is my new character is a nyxborn who was raised by a dryad and i was thinking hunter for her subclass, but I'm not sure now.
What i am looking for is this: I want to do damage, but I'm sticking with archery only [unless the creature gets too close then melee has to happen]
As my title states I do need help with trying to figure out which ranger subclass would be good. I'm playing in a campaign where I'm deciding to retire my current character for a ranger. We currently have two rogues, a barbarian and a warlock/cleric and a sorcerer. We are playing in theros as well.
The idea is my new character is a nyxborn who was raised by a dryad and i was thinking hunter for her subclass, but I'm not sure now.
What i am looking for is this: I want to do damage, but I'm sticking with archery only [unless the creature gets too close then melee has to happen]
What do you all recommend?
Thank you so much for the help and ideas! <3
So, it kind of depends on your spell casters spell choice...... If you have a lot of area spells, swarm keepers force movement can keep enemies in the bad zones and away from you. Swarms can be just about anything you want. Beast master is also not a bad option at all. If you are using Tasha's Beast master Beast of the sky can help keep your pet out of harms way with flyby. If not Wolf, flying snake, giant crab, and giant poisonous snake are some of my favorites. It is always sad to me that you can't take a "large" animal and start with a horse, or even better a giant owl, but tis life. If your allies utilize a lot of charms and fears Fey is not a bad option to go with. Those are probably the best 3 Ranger options. Archery fighting style and later Sharpshooter as a feat will help out with a lot things. Depending on how your rogues are built you may want to have a decent int score with proficiency in a couple int skills to compliment the rogues and their skills, since you will be the next "Skill monkey". In truth, other than the barbarian it seems most people want to skirt around the edges of the battle field, for this reason I personally think Swarmkeeper would probably be the best for the extra mobility it offers as well as the forced movement.
i know one rogue has refused to get up close and uses a short bow, the other switches. The sorcerer..i don't know if he does more AOE but he has casted lightning a lot, um he is shadow base. The warlock/Cleric is going hexblade/Life. I was looking at swarm, because the more i looked at it, it sounded decent.
Um, i have dex, wisdom and con for my high stats and everything else decent. I have sharpshooter, archery fighting style, and i took piercer as my last feat. [Forgot to mention she is a variant human..my bad.]
Gloomstalker is by far the superior choice above all, offering a mix of capabilities that greatly boost your raw damage power (Dread Ambusher), versatility (Umbral Sight) and defense (Iron Mind). It’s hard to match.
Regardless of that, pretty much every other subclass is at least good in some of these areas, with the exception of Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer, who are subpar. Even Beastmaster is ok after Tasha’s.
So if you want the best sub-class ever, go with Gloomstalker. If you are looking for specific flavor, like the classic Ranger, Hunter is fine.
Gloomstalker is by far the superior choice above all, offering a mix of capabilities that greatly boost your raw damage power (Dread Ambusher), versatility (Umbral Sight) and defense (Iron Mind). It’s hard to match.
Regardless of that, pretty much every other subclass is at least good in some of these areas, with the exception of Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer, who are subpar. Even Beastmaster is ok after Tasha’s.
So if you want the best sub-class ever, go with Gloomstalker. If you are looking for specific flavor, like the classic Ranger, Hunter is fine.
Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer, who are subpar.
I don't know that I'd agree with that these two are both sub-par, the main problem with Horizon Walker is that its best features come later so it doesn't suit a low level campaign that will never reach them (11th level teleport between attacks is great IMO, single turn etherealness can also be very useful with some ingenuity). At 3rd level Detect Portal is useless unless your DM features portals to make use of it, and Planar Warrior is okay but forces you into a certain build if you want to use it (melee due to the 30 foot range, but not two-weapon fighting because it requires the bonus action, so probably sword and board with Duellist or two handing with Blind Fighting or Defense), and again it doesn't get properly good until later (when it's adding a more substantial chunk of damage). The range on Planar Warrior though mostly rules it out for an archer.
Monster Slayer IMO is fine; Slayer's Prey is an easy bonus d6 of damage and stacks with Supernatural Defense, and Hunter's Sense is a very useful ability if your DM isn't prone to allowing meta-gaming (characters are supposed to act on the basis of what they would know, not what the player may or may not know about a creature, so learning all resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities as an action is potentially crucial to not wasting an opening round), the 60 foot range on both isn't huge but it's workable for an archer. The later features are also solid IMO, though I'd like to see Magic-User's Nemesis become once per success (i.e- only need to short rest to get it back once it has actually worked, which is a template some newer features use).
I don't think there are any properly bad or even weak Ranger sub-classes, and IMO Beast Master wasn't that weak before Tasha's Cauldron either, but it definitely benefits from the new companion options.
Given your party's makeup though it's a bit tricky to decide what to recommend; if your Warlock is Hexblade then it sounds like you already have two melee (Rogue and Hexblade) and two ranged (other Rogue and Sorcerer) characters, and if the Warlock is multiclassed as Life then they're filling a somewhat Paladin-like niche in the party. In terms of party balance I think you want to build an archer who can hold their own in melee, as you should be ready to close quickly and help the melee characters if they're in danger of getting overwhelmed.
Hunter is good for that because of the anti-horde abilities, but I'd also consider Beast Master and Drakewarden personally as these both allow you to fight from a range while sending your companion in to help in melee (and you can always join them for even more melee when you really need it). Swarmkeeper is also a perfectly good pick though, as it's nice and versatile; I love the Gathered Swarm ability as being able to move enemies can be hugely useful to help allies to effectively Disengage for free, or keep an enemy in a harmful area of effect to really maximise the damage it can do, plus you can also just add a little extra damage when the other options aren't useful.
Given your party is a bit light on healing (aside from the Life Cleric mix on the Warlock) I'd recommend you take some healing on your spell list, though goodberry ought to be sufficient for your out of combat healing needs; before you long rest just burn all your remaining spell slots to build up a supply of goodberries for the next day, as this gives you a good amount of total healing without having to worry about using slots you might need for something else.
Otherwise my advice is pick what excites you the most; think about the character you want to play as, what will they be like? What's the group like (neutral/good/chaotic/murder-hobo)? Questions like that may help to inform your choice.
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I would say the hardest to use are Monster slayer, Horizonwalker, and PHB beastmaster. That doesn't make them bad but you really have to really understand them If you want/need high performance. Light optimization or roleplay heavy groups they can be fun for sure.
I think swarmkeeper or gloomstalker are the easiest to play. IF the whole party is focusing on stealth and surprise gloomstalker is probably the way to go.
Drakewarden is probably the best for making a Party tank role. but if you have decent armor and a shield you can do it with any subclass for a round or two.
If you need to wait until level 11 to get good features, something is wrong. At level 3 you are wreaking havoc in the battlefield and making your Fighter friend ashamed as a Gloomstalker. At level 7 you are proficient with WIS saves. Something that probably your Fighter buddy should worry about, its not uncommon to get Resilient WIS as a Fighter at level 8.
Main problem with Horizon Walker is the bonus action clog and exactly the fact you mentioned: you will have a hard time to to TWF because of that. If you are fighting 30 ft, it’s better to go CBE route and do a Hand Crossbow, but… your bonus action is convoluted. It’s a great concept full of flavor with a horrible design execution in mechanics. Monster Slayers is less terrible, but it’s still subpar even against Hunter, who has better options in every single level boost.
Now I am not suggesting he should be playing a horizon walker, but if you recognize the ba conflict there are ways to work with it. You don't focus on BA attacks/damage but instead defensive or creative play. Shields or long range. Fogclouds+blindsight. Maybe a moon druid dip. The 2 big Hw features work while wild shaped. A rogue dip also could work for sneak force damage and only use cunning action for emergencies.
At level 3 you are wreaking havoc in the battlefield and making your Fighter friend ashamed as a Gloomstalker. At level 7 you are proficient with WIS saves. Something that probably your Fighter buddy should worry about, its not uncommon to get Resilient WIS as a Fighter at level 8.
Dread Ambusher is great but I don't think it's going to make your average Fighter blush when they've got Action Surge; don't get me wrong, an extra attack (no bonus action required) is great, and it even does bonus damage if it hits, but it's only in the first turn and only that attack that gets the bonus damage, which in my experience means it's the attack you miss with every time (especially if you have an ally bless you, and another one use faerie fire to give you advantage etc., that only makes it more likely to miss due to the undocumented cruel bad luck feature of the game). 😝
Joking aside, it's a fine sub-class, and easy to use, but while the Horizon Walker's Planar Walker does suffer bonus action churn, it does trigger on a hit and swapping for force damage enables it to bypass resistances and immunities. It's possible to manage the bonus action issue by focusing on spells that don't compete for it (or are really, really worth dropping it for). It's an ability that can benefit a lot from Favored Foe being a special action rather than a bonus action, for example, especially since the Favored Foe damage will likewise become force damage on that hit (hunter's mark will too, but it needs setting up in advance due to the bonus action).
I think it works fine if these are the kinds of features you want. Really the biggest problem that Horizon Walker has is that Wizards of the Coast have been giving all the other sub-classes ways to poach its benefits; gaining misty step is less of a big deal when everyone and their mum can now just take Fey Touched, single round etherealness is less impressive now every Ranger can choose to get a similar single round invisibility (though temporary etherealness is still better in many ways). This is why I say the higher level features are the best parts, because they haven't been stolen (I mean, you can do a teleporting multi-attack with steel wind strike on any Ranger too, but it's a 5th-level spell, the Horizon Walker gets to do it as standard for free every round, albeit at their normal weapon damage). But at 11th-level they can haste and attack four targets in a single turn, and since you only need to attack two different targets to get the fourth, you can still throw two attacks at the target for Planar Warrior if you miss with the first.
It has a lot to recommend it, but like I say, it needs a higher level campaign to get the most out of it now its early benefits can be poached.
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Gloomstalker is the most outright damage but the need to attack round one means you forgo opener spells like entangle or fairy fire(swarm keeper). Overall group damage will probably be less as a result given you're not already loaded down with control casters by the looks of it.
So to keep it on advice the player has stated sharpshooter, archery fighting style and then also taking piercer for the +1 dex feat at 4. Fey touched, and crossbow expert are not entirely relevant. So the bonus action bloat, which can be an issue, arent really in this case. Finding ways to gain advantage for sharpshooter is important. Keeping at a range is important. Likely using rapier in melee to take advantage of piercer, though 2 daggers are also possible.
Horizon walker has the mobility, but its primary level 3 feature has a range problem. Ultimately situational. Monster slayer has a couple good level 3 features, but its level 7 is a slightly worse counterspell, but it is also one of the easiest ways to get counterspell light on a ranger. So if your party needs an extra counter speller it can be really solid. If that's not what you are going for, you are probably better with something else.
I always forget gloomstalker because of my own bias against it. That said I still recommend swarm, the d6 you get from monster slayer you can get from swarm without your bonus action, but swarm also provides spacing options, at 7 a slow fly speed can still get you elevated above a fight, or get you set up above the fight. Farie fire is a decent way to gain advantage for sharshooter and give advantage to your rogues for sneak attack.
So to keep it on advice the player has stated sharpshooter, archery fighting style and then also taking piercer for the +1 dex feat at 4. Fey touched, and crossbow expert are not entirely relevant. So the bonus action bloat, which can be an issue, arent really in this case. Finding ways to gain advantage for sharpshooter is important. Keeping at a range is important. Likely using rapier in melee to take advantage of piercer, though 2 daggers are also possible.
Horizon walker has the mobility, but its primary level 3 feature has a range problem. Ultimately situational. Monster slayer has a couple good level 3 features, but its level 7 is a slightly worse counterspell, but it is also one of the easiest ways to get counterspell light on a ranger. So if your party needs an extra counter speller it can be really solid. If that's not what you are going for, you are probably better with something else.
I always forget gloomstalker because of my own bias against it. That said I still recommend swarm, the d6 you get from monster slayer you can get from swarm without your bonus action, but swarm also provides spacing options, at 7 a slow fly speed can still get you elevated above a fight, or get you set up above the fight. Farie fire is a decent way to gain advantage for sharshooter and give advantage to your rogues for sneak attack.
Just my 2 cents.
Well after taking a lot of consideration and everyone's advice, I chose swarmkeeper. I feel like it would fit my character more and my dm is willing to change the piercing to poison since I'm going with butterflies for my swarm.
Thank you everyone for your input and maybe next game I'll try out the gloom stalker!
Just wanted to add, for folk who might read the thread, that the damage component of Gloomstalker may have been a wee bit overstated. An extra attack (call it a 75% chance to land 2d8 + 4) does pretty much exactly as much extra damage as a Swarmkeeper's damage bonus, assuming battles average around 3 rounds. Front-loaded can be nice, sure, and the invisibility component of Umbral Sight is insane, but in damage terms there's not much difference.
Just wanted to add, for folk who might read the thread, that the damage component of Gloomstalker may have been a wee bit overstated. An extra attack (call it a 75% chance to land 2d8 + 4) does pretty much exactly as much extra damage as a Swarmkeeper's damage bonus, assuming battles average around 3 rounds. Front-loaded can be nice, sure, and the invisibility component of Umbral Sight is insane, but in damage terms there's not much difference.
To be fair to the Gloom Stalker it's wrong to look at just the plain attack on its own; if your goal is to kill something quick in that first round then at earlier levels you'll be casting hunter's mark so your 2-3 attacks have an extra d6 each. If you're building for melee (and can get in range, which the extra speed helps with) then with two-weapon fighting that could be 2-4 attacks (2-3 if you couldn't cast hunter's mark in advance, 3-4 if you got the drop on the enemy, which a Gloom Stalker should be trying to do as much as possible). So it's less about the extra attack, or even it's bonus damage, and more about what the extra attack stacks with.
It's a nice opener, but like I say I guarantee that the extra attack is the one you'll miss with 99% of the time, because dice are cruel. 😂
Swarm Keeper can also use hunter's mark, but it will be on fewer attacks in the first round so the Gloom Stalker still has a definite edge on first round damage (and speed, as the Swarmkeeper can add extra damage or move themselves or the enemy, though it's a great set of options to have). But over time the Swarmkeeper will win out as they can be doing their bonus damage every round, or be more mobile throughout a fight by moving either themselves or their enemy.
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I find it is the most fun to play and I think it is all around the most powerful. I think it holds its own in combat because of the spells and abilities and it is better than the other options out of combat. To do really well with it though you need a high Wisdom and a high Charisma (probably 16 and 14), if you are a ranged character you probably need a 16 dexterity as well.
Just wanted to add, for folk who might read the thread, that the damage component of Gloomstalker may have been a wee bit overstated. An extra attack (call it a 75% chance to land 2d8 + 4) does pretty much exactly as much extra damage as a Swarmkeeper's damage bonus, assuming battles average around 3 rounds. Front-loaded can be nice, sure, and the invisibility component of Umbral Sight is insane, but in damage terms there's not much difference.
To be fair to the Gloom Stalker it's wrong to look at just the plain attack on its own; if your goal is to kill something quick in that first round then at earlier levels you'll be casting hunter's mark so your 2-3 attacks have an extra d6 each. If you're building for melee (and can get in range, which the extra speed helps with) then with two-weapon fighting that could be 2-4 attacks (2-3 if you couldn't cast hunter's mark in advance, 3-4 if you got the drop on the enemy, which a Gloom Stalker should be trying to do as much as possible). So it's less about the extra attack, or even it's bonus damage, and more about what the extra attack stacks with.
It's a nice opener, but like I say I guarantee that the extra attack is the one you'll miss with 99% of the time, because dice are cruel. 😂
Swarm Keeper can also use hunter's mark, but it will be on fewer attacks in the first round so the Gloom Stalker still has a definite edge on first round damage (and speed, as the Swarmkeeper can add extra damage or move themselves or the enemy, though it's a great set of options to have). But over time the Swarmkeeper will win out as they can be doing their bonus damage every round, or be more mobile throughout a fight by moving either themselves or their enemy.
Yeah, Gloom is still great. I just feel the impression would be that it was overwhelmingly better in damage, and it's not that far ahead.
I mean, if you're able to leverage semi-invisibility to range ahead and get surprise rounds all day, it's a beast. But in the games I tend to play, it'd be fairly close. Great, but not quite to the level that might have been implied.
Gloomstalker doesn’t need to get surprise to leverage their additional attack at the first round. It’s always on. And as some folks said, several things are tremendous force multipliers when paired with this ability: Hunter’s Mark, Sharpshooter, bigger dice weapons and magic weapons. Action Surge with Dread Ambusher is completely game breaking.
But besides that, you still have a great initiative bonus and pseudo-greater invisibility from time to time that also favors the DPR discussion. And at level 7 you get WIS save prof — usual optimal choice of level 8 feat for martials could be Resilient WIS, but you don’t need to invest in that.
By leverage, I mean get advantage - more likely to hit that critical extra attack, and more likely to get a crit. If you're invisible, that's a huge difference. I just think it'd be really rare in any group I've played with recently.
Look, I don't want to bring down Gloom - it's great.
...but it's an extra attack. One extra attack (plus a d8). In a 3 round combat, Gloom gets 7 attacks (plus a d8). Any other ranger gets 6 attacks. A Swarmy (which I'm mentioning as it's both in-thread and because I don't think people write home about it re: damage) is getting 6 attacks + 3d6.
7 attacks + a d8 is more than 6 attacks + 3d6, but it's not so much more that it's (IMO) quite worth the hyperbole. YMMV.
Assuming average damage and 2/3 chance of hits, I'll put that at d10's (5.5) + sharpshooter (10) + Mark (3.5) + DEX (call it 5) + magic weapon (2?) = about 17 damage per attack (and at level 7-ish that's all pretty nicely stacked towards the Gloom, with a +2 d10 weapon, 20 DEX, and an optimistic Sharpshooter hit rate). The Gloom's d8 is worth 3, while the Swarmy's 3d6 (more likely to land since it applies on at least 1 hit) is worth ~9. So we have (for 3 rounds) Gloomy at 122, and Swarmy at 111. That's 10% extra damage.
And the gap closes if your battles go longer. It effectively closes again if there aren't good targets on the first turn (again, YMMV, but as a DM I tend to stage important fights) or e.g. if the focus-fire target is not immediately obvious.
All the other things work as well for any ranger, apart from action surge.
I mean, this is a thread about rangers not necessarily multiclass, but sure, that does give a big buff. If you go that path, and your action surge is ready, and it's a good battle to use it first turn, then yep, it's great, getting (for a 3 round combat) 10 attacks + 2d8 vs a Swarmy's 8 attacks + 3d6. That's a significant difference, sure - it's (back of the envelope 176 vs 145) 21% more damage. But depending on how your DM does rests it's only every second battle or so. (Even then, we're assuming you accurately choose Surge on turn 1 of the right fights, without time to see if it's appropriate, and we're assuming that both 3rd-attacks hit the same Hunter's Mark target, but sure). So in total, even with the optimal "game breaking" build, we're looking at an average of 16% more damage. Over a Swarmy. Which doesn't exactly get held up as a damage beast.
Maybe they're invisible! That's better (as I said). Rare, though, depending on the party, the targets, and the DM.
Still really good! I just think you're making it sound like it's more than it is.
Anyway, I'll bow out. I've made my point.
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Hello!
As my title states I do need help with trying to figure out which ranger subclass would be good. I'm playing in a campaign where I'm deciding to retire my current character for a ranger. We currently have two rogues, a barbarian and a warlock/cleric and a sorcerer. We are playing in theros as well.
The idea is my new character is a nyxborn who was raised by a dryad and i was thinking hunter for her subclass, but I'm not sure now.
What i am looking for is this: I want to do damage, but I'm sticking with archery only [unless the creature gets too close then melee has to happen]
What do you all recommend?
Thank you so much for the help and ideas! <3
So, it kind of depends on your spell casters spell choice...... If you have a lot of area spells, swarm keepers force movement can keep enemies in the bad zones and away from you. Swarms can be just about anything you want. Beast master is also not a bad option at all. If you are using Tasha's Beast master Beast of the sky can help keep your pet out of harms way with flyby. If not Wolf, flying snake, giant crab, and giant poisonous snake are some of my favorites. It is always sad to me that you can't take a "large" animal and start with a horse, or even better a giant owl, but tis life. If your allies utilize a lot of charms and fears Fey is not a bad option to go with. Those are probably the best 3 Ranger options. Archery fighting style and later Sharpshooter as a feat will help out with a lot things. Depending on how your rogues are built you may want to have a decent int score with proficiency in a couple int skills to compliment the rogues and their skills, since you will be the next "Skill monkey". In truth, other than the barbarian it seems most people want to skirt around the edges of the battle field, for this reason I personally think Swarmkeeper would probably be the best for the extra mobility it offers as well as the forced movement.
i know one rogue has refused to get up close and uses a short bow, the other switches. The sorcerer..i don't know if he does more AOE but he has casted lightning a lot, um he is shadow base. The warlock/Cleric is going hexblade/Life. I was looking at swarm, because the more i looked at it, it sounded decent.
Um, i have dex, wisdom and con for my high stats and everything else decent. I have sharpshooter, archery fighting style, and i took piercer as my last feat. [Forgot to mention she is a variant human..my bad.]
Gloomstalker is by far the superior choice above all, offering a mix of capabilities that greatly boost your raw damage power (Dread Ambusher), versatility (Umbral Sight) and defense (Iron Mind). It’s hard to match.
Regardless of that, pretty much every other subclass is at least good in some of these areas, with the exception of Horizon Walker and Monster Slayer, who are subpar. Even Beastmaster is ok after Tasha’s.
So if you want the best sub-class ever, go with Gloomstalker. If you are looking for specific flavor, like the classic Ranger, Hunter is fine.
Alright! Thank you so much ^^
I don't know that I'd agree with that these two are both sub-par, the main problem with Horizon Walker is that its best features come later so it doesn't suit a low level campaign that will never reach them (11th level teleport between attacks is great IMO, single turn etherealness can also be very useful with some ingenuity). At 3rd level Detect Portal is useless unless your DM features portals to make use of it, and Planar Warrior is okay but forces you into a certain build if you want to use it (melee due to the 30 foot range, but not two-weapon fighting because it requires the bonus action, so probably sword and board with Duellist or two handing with Blind Fighting or Defense), and again it doesn't get properly good until later (when it's adding a more substantial chunk of damage). The range on Planar Warrior though mostly rules it out for an archer.
Monster Slayer IMO is fine; Slayer's Prey is an easy bonus d6 of damage and stacks with Supernatural Defense, and Hunter's Sense is a very useful ability if your DM isn't prone to allowing meta-gaming (characters are supposed to act on the basis of what they would know, not what the player may or may not know about a creature, so learning all resistances/immunities/vulnerabilities as an action is potentially crucial to not wasting an opening round), the 60 foot range on both isn't huge but it's workable for an archer. The later features are also solid IMO, though I'd like to see Magic-User's Nemesis become once per success (i.e- only need to short rest to get it back once it has actually worked, which is a template some newer features use).
I don't think there are any properly bad or even weak Ranger sub-classes, and IMO Beast Master wasn't that weak before Tasha's Cauldron either, but it definitely benefits from the new companion options.
Given your party's makeup though it's a bit tricky to decide what to recommend; if your Warlock is Hexblade then it sounds like you already have two melee (Rogue and Hexblade) and two ranged (other Rogue and Sorcerer) characters, and if the Warlock is multiclassed as Life then they're filling a somewhat Paladin-like niche in the party. In terms of party balance I think you want to build an archer who can hold their own in melee, as you should be ready to close quickly and help the melee characters if they're in danger of getting overwhelmed.
Hunter is good for that because of the anti-horde abilities, but I'd also consider Beast Master and Drakewarden personally as these both allow you to fight from a range while sending your companion in to help in melee (and you can always join them for even more melee when you really need it). Swarmkeeper is also a perfectly good pick though, as it's nice and versatile; I love the Gathered Swarm ability as being able to move enemies can be hugely useful to help allies to effectively Disengage for free, or keep an enemy in a harmful area of effect to really maximise the damage it can do, plus you can also just add a little extra damage when the other options aren't useful.
Given your party is a bit light on healing (aside from the Life Cleric mix on the Warlock) I'd recommend you take some healing on your spell list, though goodberry ought to be sufficient for your out of combat healing needs; before you long rest just burn all your remaining spell slots to build up a supply of goodberries for the next day, as this gives you a good amount of total healing without having to worry about using slots you might need for something else.
Otherwise my advice is pick what excites you the most; think about the character you want to play as, what will they be like? What's the group like (neutral/good/chaotic/murder-hobo)? Questions like that may help to inform your choice.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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I would say the hardest to use are Monster slayer, Horizonwalker, and PHB beastmaster. That doesn't make them bad but you really have to really understand them If you want/need high performance. Light optimization or roleplay heavy groups they can be fun for sure.
I think swarmkeeper or gloomstalker are the easiest to play. IF the whole party is focusing on stealth and surprise gloomstalker is probably the way to go.
Drakewarden is probably the best for making a Party tank role. but if you have decent armor and a shield you can do it with any subclass for a round or two.
If you need to wait until level 11 to get good features, something is wrong. At level 3 you are wreaking havoc in the battlefield and making your Fighter friend ashamed as a Gloomstalker. At level 7 you are proficient with WIS saves. Something that probably your Fighter buddy should worry about, its not uncommon to get Resilient WIS as a Fighter at level 8.
Main problem with Horizon Walker is the bonus action clog and exactly the fact you mentioned: you will have a hard time to to TWF because of that. If you are fighting 30 ft, it’s better to go CBE route and do a Hand Crossbow, but… your bonus action is convoluted. It’s a great concept full of flavor with a horrible design execution in mechanics. Monster Slayers is less terrible, but it’s still subpar even against Hunter, who has better options in every single level boost.
Now I am not suggesting he should be playing a horizon walker, but if you recognize the ba conflict there are ways to work with it. You don't focus on BA attacks/damage but instead defensive or creative play. Shields or long range. Fogclouds+blindsight. Maybe a moon druid dip. The 2 big Hw features work while wild shaped. A rogue dip also could work for sneak force damage and only use cunning action for emergencies.
Dread Ambusher is great but I don't think it's going to make your average Fighter blush when they've got Action Surge; don't get me wrong, an extra attack (no bonus action required) is great, and it even does bonus damage if it hits, but it's only in the first turn and only that attack that gets the bonus damage, which in my experience means it's the attack you miss with every time (especially if you have an ally bless you, and another one use faerie fire to give you advantage etc., that only makes it more likely to miss due to the undocumented cruel bad luck feature of the game). 😝
Joking aside, it's a fine sub-class, and easy to use, but while the Horizon Walker's Planar Walker does suffer bonus action churn, it does trigger on a hit and swapping for force damage enables it to bypass resistances and immunities. It's possible to manage the bonus action issue by focusing on spells that don't compete for it (or are really, really worth dropping it for). It's an ability that can benefit a lot from Favored Foe being a special action rather than a bonus action, for example, especially since the Favored Foe damage will likewise become force damage on that hit (hunter's mark will too, but it needs setting up in advance due to the bonus action).
I think it works fine if these are the kinds of features you want. Really the biggest problem that Horizon Walker has is that Wizards of the Coast have been giving all the other sub-classes ways to poach its benefits; gaining misty step is less of a big deal when everyone and their mum can now just take Fey Touched, single round etherealness is less impressive now every Ranger can choose to get a similar single round invisibility (though temporary etherealness is still better in many ways). This is why I say the higher level features are the best parts, because they haven't been stolen (I mean, you can do a teleporting multi-attack with steel wind strike on any Ranger too, but it's a 5th-level spell, the Horizon Walker gets to do it as standard for free every round, albeit at their normal weapon damage). But at 11th-level they can haste and attack four targets in a single turn, and since you only need to attack two different targets to get the fourth, you can still throw two attacks at the target for Planar Warrior if you miss with the first.
It has a lot to recommend it, but like I say, it needs a higher level campaign to get the most out of it now its early benefits can be poached.
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Gloomstalker is the most outright damage but the need to attack round one means you forgo opener spells like entangle or fairy fire(swarm keeper). Overall group damage will probably be less as a result given you're not already loaded down with control casters by the looks of it.
So to keep it on advice the player has stated sharpshooter, archery fighting style and then also taking piercer for the +1 dex feat at 4. Fey touched, and crossbow expert are not entirely relevant. So the bonus action bloat, which can be an issue, arent really in this case. Finding ways to gain advantage for sharpshooter is important. Keeping at a range is important. Likely using rapier in melee to take advantage of piercer, though 2 daggers are also possible.
Horizon walker has the mobility, but its primary level 3 feature has a range problem. Ultimately situational. Monster slayer has a couple good level 3 features, but its level 7 is a slightly worse counterspell, but it is also one of the easiest ways to get counterspell light on a ranger. So if your party needs an extra counter speller it can be really solid. If that's not what you are going for, you are probably better with something else.
I always forget gloomstalker because of my own bias against it. That said I still recommend swarm, the d6 you get from monster slayer you can get from swarm without your bonus action, but swarm also provides spacing options, at 7 a slow fly speed can still get you elevated above a fight, or get you set up above the fight. Farie fire is a decent way to gain advantage for sharshooter and give advantage to your rogues for sneak attack.
Just my 2 cents.
Well after taking a lot of consideration and everyone's advice, I chose swarmkeeper. I feel like it would fit my character more and my dm is willing to change the piercing to poison since I'm going with butterflies for my swarm.
Thank you everyone for your input and maybe next game I'll try out the gloom stalker!
Don’t forget to prepare Spike Growth and enjoy… Swarmkeeper is awesome!
Just wanted to add, for folk who might read the thread, that the damage component of Gloomstalker may have been a wee bit overstated. An extra attack (call it a 75% chance to land 2d8 + 4) does pretty much exactly as much extra damage as a Swarmkeeper's damage bonus, assuming battles average around 3 rounds. Front-loaded can be nice, sure, and the invisibility component of Umbral Sight is insane, but in damage terms there's not much difference.
To be fair to the Gloom Stalker it's wrong to look at just the plain attack on its own; if your goal is to kill something quick in that first round then at earlier levels you'll be casting hunter's mark so your 2-3 attacks have an extra d6 each. If you're building for melee (and can get in range, which the extra speed helps with) then with two-weapon fighting that could be 2-4 attacks (2-3 if you couldn't cast hunter's mark in advance, 3-4 if you got the drop on the enemy, which a Gloom Stalker should be trying to do as much as possible). So it's less about the extra attack, or even it's bonus damage, and more about what the extra attack stacks with.
It's a nice opener, but like I say I guarantee that the extra attack is the one you'll miss with 99% of the time, because dice are cruel. 😂
Swarm Keeper can also use hunter's mark, but it will be on fewer attacks in the first round so the Gloom Stalker still has a definite edge on first round damage (and speed, as the Swarmkeeper can add extra damage or move themselves or the enemy, though it's a great set of options to have). But over time the Swarmkeeper will win out as they can be doing their bonus damage every round, or be more mobile throughout a fight by moving either themselves or their enemy.
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I like Fey Wanderer the most.
I find it is the most fun to play and I think it is all around the most powerful. I think it holds its own in combat because of the spells and abilities and it is better than the other options out of combat. To do really well with it though you need a high Wisdom and a high Charisma (probably 16 and 14), if you are a ranged character you probably need a 16 dexterity as well.
Yeah, Gloom is still great. I just feel the impression would be that it was overwhelmingly better in damage, and it's not that far ahead.
I mean, if you're able to leverage semi-invisibility to range ahead and get surprise rounds all day, it's a beast. But in the games I tend to play, it'd be fairly close. Great, but not quite to the level that might have been implied.
Gloomstalker doesn’t need to get surprise to leverage their additional attack at the first round. It’s always on. And as some folks said, several things are tremendous force multipliers when paired with this ability: Hunter’s Mark, Sharpshooter, bigger dice weapons and magic weapons. Action Surge with Dread Ambusher is completely game breaking.
But besides that, you still have a great initiative bonus and pseudo-greater invisibility from time to time that also favors the DPR discussion. And at level 7 you get WIS save prof — usual optimal choice of level 8 feat for martials could be Resilient WIS, but you don’t need to invest in that.
By leverage, I mean get advantage - more likely to hit that critical extra attack, and more likely to get a crit. If you're invisible, that's a huge difference. I just think it'd be really rare in any group I've played with recently.
Look, I don't want to bring down Gloom - it's great.
...but it's an extra attack. One extra attack (plus a d8). In a 3 round combat, Gloom gets 7 attacks (plus a d8). Any other ranger gets 6 attacks. A Swarmy (which I'm mentioning as it's both in-thread and because I don't think people write home about it re: damage) is getting 6 attacks + 3d6.
7 attacks + a d8 is more than 6 attacks + 3d6, but it's not so much more that it's (IMO) quite worth the hyperbole. YMMV.
Assuming average damage and 2/3 chance of hits, I'll put that at d10's (5.5) + sharpshooter (10) + Mark (3.5) + DEX (call it 5) + magic weapon (2?) = about 17 damage per attack (and at level 7-ish that's all pretty nicely stacked towards the Gloom, with a +2 d10 weapon, 20 DEX, and an optimistic Sharpshooter hit rate). The Gloom's d8 is worth 3, while the Swarmy's 3d6 (more likely to land since it applies on at least 1 hit) is worth ~9. So we have (for 3 rounds) Gloomy at 122, and Swarmy at 111. That's 10% extra damage.
And the gap closes if your battles go longer. It effectively closes again if there aren't good targets on the first turn (again, YMMV, but as a DM I tend to stage important fights) or e.g. if the focus-fire target is not immediately obvious.
All the other things work as well for any ranger, apart from action surge.
I mean, this is a thread about rangers not necessarily multiclass, but sure, that does give a big buff. If you go that path, and your action surge is ready, and it's a good battle to use it first turn, then yep, it's great, getting (for a 3 round combat) 10 attacks + 2d8 vs a Swarmy's 8 attacks + 3d6. That's a significant difference, sure - it's (back of the envelope 176 vs 145) 21% more damage. But depending on how your DM does rests it's only every second battle or so. (Even then, we're assuming you accurately choose Surge on turn 1 of the right fights, without time to see if it's appropriate, and we're assuming that both 3rd-attacks hit the same Hunter's Mark target, but sure). So in total, even with the optimal "game breaking" build, we're looking at an average of 16% more damage. Over a Swarmy. Which doesn't exactly get held up as a damage beast.
Maybe they're invisible! That's better (as I said). Rare, though, depending on the party, the targets, and the DM.
Still really good! I just think you're making it sound like it's more than it is.
Anyway, I'll bow out. I've made my point.