Honestly, I think that the ranger from what we know of so far seems in my opinion to have little improvement than I expected. But looking through the samples of character advancement all together, I think they at least cleaned up the ranger making the class lean toward more of the vibe the ranger gives which was why the class was so hated having a chaotic mess of multiple different types of rangers everyone had in thought they were.
It stinks, but I don't hate it. It sounds like they will be giving the ranger more spells so it might still be a descent class. People are mostly complaining about the reliance on hunter's mark; the fact that it still requires concentration for a long time to be effective. The UA had a feature at one point that removed this concentration and they decided it was overpowered. I think this was because it was introduced at such a low level, but I think it is justified (in theory, not practice) considering a single hunters mark cast and its damage and tracking boost can last multiple encounters if the circumstances permit. They could have just moved that part to a higher level, but why would we expect them to do something actually good like that? With this feature the ranger can hold it's own at low levels, but it doesn't really scale well to higher levels. IF there are a lot of good ranger-themed spells that you can cast without concentration it could work. We'll just have to see. Also the level 20 ability feels like a level 12 ability (If it was a d12 I might be slightly impressed) and I don't like it. This might end up being one of those things actually better in practice than in theory. Overall I think it is two steps forward one step back (and both steps forward were made in Tasha's).
It might just be that I want the ranger class to be cool so bad (I have already started homebrewing new rules for it lol)
I'm a D14 ranger fanboy. I dislike Tasha's. I have not be switching to D24 since day one, so my opinion means nothing. The D24 ranger takes away and adds nothing. I can't wait to se how their higher level spells have been downgraded as well. Again, means nothing to me as I'm not switching.
I really think they missed the opportunity to fix problems but instead avoided them altogether.
The high desire to play rangers shows the interest in its mechanics but they were to open for certain tables.
2024 Rangers Don't really have a single group skill that guides and traveling jobs make the class necessary for world building.
No option for Beast statblocks is also really dumb because the same reasons druids need statblocks is the same rangers do also (I'm not saying get rid of the templates just a 4th option)
Primal awareness wasn't ever even attempted at fixing and that's a shame.
Nature's veil hurts me because it's so easily broken by tremorsense, see invisibility, truesight etc. I liked the camo theme but it needed clarity.
In the end I really believe there was some kind of pressure to not talk about real reasons or motivation for some of the tasha's choices.
I think it looks like an improvement to the 2014 ranger in just about every meaningful way. I'm much more likely to play a 2024 ranger to another 2014 ranger.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
There’s alot about the class that I like, and until I get a full view of the new spell updates, I won’t write the class off entirely. That being said; shoving a lvl 1 consentration spell down our throats by powerfist, sort of ruins the experience.
I have a massive issue with them building the whole class around the Hunter's Mark spell. That's even before you get into the discussion around concentration. I understand the desire to avoid 1-level dips by the opti-munchkins and frankly I agree. (Hell if it were up to me, then multi-classing would get a very serious nerf). But aside from that, it would be so so easy to offer rangers a pathway to hunter's mark that is concentration free. Could be in the spell rules itself (e.g. cast this spell using a ranger spell slot of [x] or higher and it does not require concentration). Or as part of a class or subclass feature (e.g. offer a number of concentration-free castings equal to wisdom bonus starting at [y] level).
Another thing that irks me senseless (and they did this with other classes but it was particularly egregious with Ranger) is to pass off Tasha's features as 'new features', acting as though the majority of the folks watching these launch videos have never seen or used Tasha's. Trust me if you are excited enough to watch these videos there is a high chance that you know what was offered in Tasha's and a decent chance you already have it in your games. (Those of you who have never seen Tasha's or don't use it, please don't reply to me or DM me. I don't care.) Lastly, on the Tasha's stuff, to take the Deft Explorer from Tasha's and split it into three features in PH24 and act like each and every one of them is a new bloody feature is insulting and laughable.
EDIT: Let me end on a more positive note. While I am massively DISAPPOINTED with what they have told us about the Ranger, I am happy that they did not saddle the poor Hunter subclass with a level 7 or 11 (or whatever) always prepared / free casting of the very uninspiring *Conjure Barrage* spell, which unless I'm mistaken was proposed in some of the play tests. That would have added insult to what is already death by a thousand cuts.
I for the most part like it. Class features are good, love the subclasses. But my goodness they dropped the ball with Hunter’s Mark. Why are we being punished because of Power Gamers? Also we have a lot of awesome spells that are concentration but we can’t cast them or we can’t use class features. That capstone is a kick in pants .
Bad. Really, really bad. Better than 2014, but compared to the improvements to the other classes for 2024? Bad. Not just in power creep, but also in overall design. Level 14 you can turn invisible for a turn, which gives you advantage on attacks. Then at lvl 17, Hunter's Mark gives you advantage on attacks? That's (at least somewhat) redundant. The 2014 capstone was Wisdom mod added to one attack & damage roll per turn. Now, it's a d10 added to one damage roll per turn- if you are concentrating on Hunter's Mark. That is just objectively worse. Some of the other changes are ok, but underwhelming. The Tireless feature SOUNDS good... but what, if anything, actually causes Exaustion? Will it ever even be relevant? And has anyone else noticed that Temporary Hitpoints are EVERYWHERE in the 2014 revisions? They even changed the Aid spell to Temp HP. So, any feature granting Temp HP has been reduced in value, as a result. Expertise is nice. Added movement, and Swim & Climb, is nice. Level 1 spellcasting is nice. That's it for the "nice" though.
My idea for a New Hunter's Mark: At level 1- Like Vow of Enmity, it gives you advantage against a single enemy for 1 minute, concentration free (& you can move it to another creature upon the death of the first one). No Bonus Action- it is just part of the attack action to initiate. No damage increase. Just advantage. It is no longer a spell, just a class feature, that can be used Wisdom modifier times per long rest. You get the d6 damage boost for EACH attack that hits at level 6. Then, at lvl 13- you get a bonus attack per turn against your marked creature. So a melee Ranger with 2 weapon fighting could get a fourth attack per turn, for example, while a longbow attacker could get up to 3 attacks per turn. Then, at level 20, for your capstone, we pile on the damage. Add 3d6 to each damage roll, for up to 9d6 extra damage per turn with traditional attack routines, or up to 12d6 per turn with 2wf. Because its a CAPSTONE. In the meantime, at lower levels, if the player wants to add more damage to their attacks, they could concentrate on a spell, like flame arrows (or hopefully some new equivalent for melee Rangers.) If we want to make Rangers "range" with movement increases, then they should probably get a second 10ft increase, to compete with Barbarians & Monks. I'd move the first increase to level 5 or so. Then add the second increase to level 11, so they'll have a 50ft walk, swim, & climb speed at lvl 11. I'd reduce their Expertises from 3, to 2. One given at 2nd level. The second given around 7th or 9th level. And I'd return Primeval Awareness, but as a class ability, useable Wis mod times per long rest- no spell slots. And it would work like a radar "ping"- the Ranger would be able to sense creatures, their type & quantity & general direction & distance, out to say... 500 ft? This would be instantaneous, though, instead of having a duration. That would be the trade-off. I'd get rid of the lvl 14 Invisiblilty. Instead, I'd give them permanent Advantage on Stealth & Perception & Survival checks, at lvl 14 (Aragorn: "I can remain unseen, if i wish. But to disappear entirely? That is a rare gift.")
I don't think the subclasses are terrible. I wish they'd gone for Swarm Keeper instead of Fey Wanderer, but I understand their fidelity to maintaining themes. I'd have liked to have seen curated spells known lists for the Hunter & Beast Master. They begin the video touting spellcasting as a major part of the Ranger's identity, but then claim that these two subclasses are the "less magical" options? Doesn't make any sense. I think the Hunter could still use a complete redesign, but it sounds better than it was in 2014, at least.
The above suggestions are just some ideas i came up with in the early morning hours, off the top of my head. I did not playtest it, revise it, or even give it a second thought. But surely it CANNOT be worse than this thing that is barely a revision of the Tasha's revision of the the really, really bad 2014 version of Ranger?
I guess, until they re-revise the revision of the revision... I'm gonna have to homebrew or look to 3rd party creators. This Ranger is playable, sure. But it is very bad compared to the new Paladin. Or Warlock. Or Druid, or Fighter, or Barbarian, or Monk.... etc.
Just a MAJOR disappointment, across the entire class.
In general, I like what I see, Hunters Mark being a locked in class feature instead of a choice/option is BS, now not taking Hunters mark will feel even more like I'm leaving features on the table... Kind of like if I was playing as a Moon Druid and not using Wild Shape...
Anyways it looks like my druid ranger multi-class will be in general superior... but as per usual I'll be glutted with concentration spells.
I've been holding out on looking up anything about 24Ranger because I was worried they'd drop the ball, and this conversation isn't exactly helping. I happily looked up other classes, but still not the Ranger.
Pretty confident they just don't know what they're doing, and living in the confines of 2014 has meant they've been too constrained to actually try new things.
WotC hates Ranger players. Honestly, no reason to play the class for role playing flavor or for combat. Every other class has more utility, damage, and flavor. This is quite insulting.
The purpose of the free casts/prep of Hunter's Mark is to free up spell slots and spells prepared for more utility spells and unlock the Ranger spell list. I really liked Primal Awareness for this approach, but I can see this as a cleaner option. The ranger spell list has some of the best utility options in the game, and having more slots and prep allows them access to that.
The point of these changes and the changes to paladin is to get the Ranger using the rest of their spell list. Combat wise the Ranger will be fine (assuming they revert HM back to damage on each hit from where it was in the playtest), but so much of this class is going to hinge on the final text of Hunter's Mark.
Two weapon fighting/light property/nick will enable the Ranger two weapon fight in a reasonable way while keeping their bonus action clean. That takes what was a terrible fighting approach and starts making it viable again. HM will keep the Ranger on par or exceeding most of the other martials up until tier 3 and at that point you have 3rd and then 4th level spells to play with to keep up.
Of note, the extra batch of expertise at 9th level is going to allow the Ranger to really excel in 3 skills and (outside of the rogue) really be great at their jobs.
The purpose of the free casts/prep of Hunter's Mark is to free up spell slots and spells prepared for more utility spells and unlock the Ranger spell list. I really liked Primal Awareness for this approach, but I can see this as a cleaner option. The ranger spell list has some of the best utility options in the game, and having more slots and prep allows them access to that.
The point of these changes and the changes to paladin is to get the Ranger using the rest of their spell list. Combat wise the Ranger will be fine (assuming they revert HM back to damage on each hit from where it was in the playtest), but so much of this class is going to hinge on the final text of Hunter's Mark.
Two weapon fighting/light property/nick will enable the Ranger two weapon fight in a reasonable way while keeping their bonus action clean. That takes what was a terrible fighting approach and starts making it viable again. HM will keep the Ranger on par or exceeding most of the other martials up until tier 3 and at that point you have 3rd and then 4th level spells to play with to keep up.
Of note, the extra batch of expertise at 9th level is going to allow the Ranger to really excel in 3 skills and (outside of the rogue) really be great at their jobs.
The problem is ranger no longer have unique features for their jobs. Especially when it comes to rogues.
A rogue can spend most of its expertise on ranger skills and get reliable talent. Skills aren't enough. At least phb rangers could regularly forage better or travel faster.
Rangers and rogues used to share as easy of access to poison builds. Thief could apply it fast in combat meanwhile assassin could end combat early. Phb beastmasters at least had easy harvesting access. Now rogues can just spend damage for poison.
For kiting and movement rogues have BA dash (which can mimic climb and swim speeds) at least phb rangers had unique difficult terrain movement. They still have "speed" spells but that comes whit its own cost.
Thow in a rogue/druid mc and this time around it really is better than a ranger.
Each class should have its own unique reasons for existing. Even if it's mostly lore/world building some mechanical backup is necessary.
If the point as you say is to get the Ranger using other spells in their list then this is a massive fail. The entire renovation of the class (and portions of the subclasses eg Hunter esp.) is fully dependent upon Hunter’s Mark, which requires (still, for unknown reason - and don’t tell me b/c it was too powerful without- that is BS) concentration.
If the Ranger eschews HM then he is losing out on a big aspect of the new class rework. If he casts it, then he is missing out on all the sexy new spell. It’s a massive own goal and one that was easily avoidable. Want to know how? Check out how Tales of the Valiant wrote their Ranger. It is gorgeous in it’s simplicity and it is why I’ll be playing ToV before WotC’s half baked effort of 5.5.
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Don't be Lawful Evil
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Honestly, I think that the ranger from what we know of so far seems in my opinion to have little improvement than I expected. But looking through the samples of character advancement all together, I think they at least cleaned up the ranger making the class lean toward more of the vibe the ranger gives which was why the class was so hated having a chaotic mess of multiple different types of rangers everyone had in thought they were.
Sucks. Insulting to players.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
It stinks!
It stinks, but I don't hate it. It sounds like they will be giving the ranger more spells so it might still be a descent class. People are mostly complaining about the reliance on hunter's mark; the fact that it still requires concentration for a long time to be effective. The UA had a feature at one point that removed this concentration and they decided it was overpowered. I think this was because it was introduced at such a low level, but I think it is justified (in theory, not practice) considering a single hunters mark cast and its damage and tracking boost can last multiple encounters if the circumstances permit. They could have just moved that part to a higher level, but why would we expect them to do something actually good like that? With this feature the ranger can hold it's own at low levels, but it doesn't really scale well to higher levels. IF there are a lot of good ranger-themed spells that you can cast without concentration it could work. We'll just have to see. Also the level 20 ability feels like a level 12 ability (If it was a d12 I might be slightly impressed) and I don't like it. This might end up being one of those things actually better in practice than in theory. Overall I think it is two steps forward one step back (and both steps forward were made in Tasha's).
It might just be that I want the ranger class to be cool so bad (I have already started homebrewing new rules for it lol)
I'm a D14 ranger fanboy. I dislike Tasha's. I have not be switching to D24 since day one, so my opinion means nothing. The D24 ranger takes away and adds nothing. I can't wait to se how their higher level spells have been downgraded as well. Again, means nothing to me as I'm not switching.
I really think they missed the opportunity to fix problems but instead avoided them altogether.
The high desire to play rangers shows the interest in its mechanics but they were to open for certain tables.
2024 Rangers Don't really have a single group skill that guides and traveling jobs make the class necessary for world building.
No option for Beast statblocks is also really dumb because the same reasons druids need statblocks is the same rangers do also (I'm not saying get rid of the templates just a 4th option)
Primal awareness wasn't ever even attempted at fixing and that's a shame.
Nature's veil hurts me because it's so easily broken by tremorsense, see invisibility, truesight etc. I liked the camo theme but it needed clarity.
In the end I really believe there was some kind of pressure to not talk about real reasons or motivation for some of the tasha's choices.
I think it looks like an improvement to the 2014 ranger in just about every meaningful way. I'm much more likely to play a 2024 ranger to another 2014 ranger.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
They bottled it, and are just opening up yet another round of home brew rules to make it work.
A wasted opportunity :(
There’s alot about the class that I like, and until I get a full view of the new spell updates, I won’t write the class off entirely. That being said; shoving a lvl 1 consentration spell down our throats by powerfist, sort of ruins the experience.
I have a massive issue with them building the whole class around the Hunter's Mark spell. That's even before you get into the discussion around concentration. I understand the desire to avoid 1-level dips by the opti-munchkins and frankly I agree. (Hell if it were up to me, then multi-classing would get a very serious nerf). But aside from that, it would be so so easy to offer rangers a pathway to hunter's mark that is concentration free. Could be in the spell rules itself (e.g. cast this spell using a ranger spell slot of [x] or higher and it does not require concentration). Or as part of a class or subclass feature (e.g. offer a number of concentration-free castings equal to wisdom bonus starting at [y] level).
Another thing that irks me senseless (and they did this with other classes but it was particularly egregious with Ranger) is to pass off Tasha's features as 'new features', acting as though the majority of the folks watching these launch videos have never seen or used Tasha's. Trust me if you are excited enough to watch these videos there is a high chance that you know what was offered in Tasha's and a decent chance you already have it in your games. (Those of you who have never seen Tasha's or don't use it, please don't reply to me or DM me. I don't care.) Lastly, on the Tasha's stuff, to take the Deft Explorer from Tasha's and split it into three features in PH24 and act like each and every one of them is a new bloody feature is insulting and laughable.
EDIT: Let me end on a more positive note. While I am massively DISAPPOINTED with what they have told us about the Ranger, I am happy that they did not saddle the poor Hunter subclass with a level 7 or 11 (or whatever) always prepared / free casting of the very uninspiring *Conjure Barrage* spell, which unless I'm mistaken was proposed in some of the play tests. That would have added insult to what is already death by a thousand cuts.
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Don't be Lawful Evil
I for the most part like it. Class features are good, love the subclasses. But my goodness they dropped the ball with Hunter’s Mark. Why are we being punished because of Power Gamers? Also we have a lot of awesome spells that are concentration but we can’t cast them or we can’t use class features.
That capstone is a kick in pants .
Bad. Really, really bad. Better than 2014, but compared to the improvements to the other classes for 2024? Bad. Not just in power creep, but also in overall design. Level 14 you can turn invisible for a turn, which gives you advantage on attacks. Then at lvl 17, Hunter's Mark gives you advantage on attacks? That's (at least somewhat) redundant. The 2014 capstone was Wisdom mod added to one attack & damage roll per turn. Now, it's a d10 added to one damage roll per turn- if you are concentrating on Hunter's Mark. That is just objectively worse. Some of the other changes are ok, but underwhelming. The Tireless feature SOUNDS good... but what, if anything, actually causes Exaustion? Will it ever even be relevant? And has anyone else noticed that Temporary Hitpoints are EVERYWHERE in the 2014 revisions? They even changed the Aid spell to Temp HP. So, any feature granting Temp HP has been reduced in value, as a result. Expertise is nice. Added movement, and Swim & Climb, is nice. Level 1 spellcasting is nice. That's it for the "nice" though.
My idea for a New Hunter's Mark: At level 1- Like Vow of Enmity, it gives you advantage against a single enemy for 1 minute, concentration free (& you can move it to another creature upon the death of the first one). No Bonus Action- it is just part of the attack action to initiate. No damage increase. Just advantage. It is no longer a spell, just a class feature, that can be used Wisdom modifier times per long rest. You get the d6 damage boost for EACH attack that hits at level 6.
Then, at lvl 13- you get a bonus attack per turn against your marked creature. So a melee Ranger with 2 weapon fighting could get a fourth attack per turn, for example, while a longbow attacker could get up to 3 attacks per turn.
Then, at level 20, for your capstone, we pile on the damage. Add 3d6 to each damage roll, for up to 9d6 extra damage per turn with traditional attack routines, or up to 12d6 per turn with 2wf. Because its a CAPSTONE.
In the meantime, at lower levels, if the player wants to add more damage to their attacks, they could concentrate on a spell, like flame arrows (or hopefully some new equivalent for melee Rangers.)
If we want to make Rangers "range" with movement increases, then they should probably get a second 10ft increase, to compete with Barbarians & Monks. I'd move the first increase to level 5 or so. Then add the second increase to level 11, so they'll have a 50ft walk, swim, & climb speed at lvl 11.
I'd reduce their Expertises from 3, to 2. One given at 2nd level. The second given around 7th or 9th level. And I'd return Primeval Awareness, but as a class ability, useable Wis mod times per long rest- no spell slots. And it would work like a radar "ping"- the Ranger would be able to sense creatures, their type & quantity & general direction & distance, out to say... 500 ft? This would be instantaneous, though, instead of having a duration. That would be the trade-off.
I'd get rid of the lvl 14 Invisiblilty. Instead, I'd give them permanent Advantage on Stealth & Perception & Survival checks, at lvl 14 (Aragorn: "I can remain unseen, if i wish. But to disappear entirely? That is a rare gift.")
I don't think the subclasses are terrible. I wish they'd gone for Swarm Keeper instead of Fey Wanderer, but I understand their fidelity to maintaining themes. I'd have liked to have seen curated spells known lists for the Hunter & Beast Master. They begin the video touting spellcasting as a major part of the Ranger's identity, but then claim that these two subclasses are the "less magical" options? Doesn't make any sense. I think the Hunter could still use a complete redesign, but it sounds better than it was in 2014, at least.
The above suggestions are just some ideas i came up with in the early morning hours, off the top of my head. I did not playtest it, revise it, or even give it a second thought. But surely it CANNOT be worse than this thing that is barely a revision of the Tasha's revision of the the really, really bad 2014 version of Ranger?
I guess, until they re-revise the revision of the revision... I'm gonna have to homebrew or look to 3rd party creators. This Ranger is playable, sure. But it is very bad compared to the new Paladin. Or Warlock. Or Druid, or Fighter, or Barbarian, or Monk.... etc.
Just a MAJOR disappointment, across the entire class.
In general, I like what I see, Hunters Mark being a locked in class feature instead of a choice/option is BS, now not taking Hunters mark will feel even more like I'm leaving features on the table... Kind of like if I was playing as a Moon Druid and not using Wild Shape...
Anyways it looks like my druid ranger multi-class will be in general superior... but as per usual I'll be glutted with concentration spells.
Its not great, I honestly wished they would had just made them half druid and half rogue
I've been holding out on looking up anything about 24Ranger because I was worried they'd drop the ball, and this conversation isn't exactly helping. I happily looked up other classes, but still not the Ranger.
Pretty confident they just don't know what they're doing, and living in the confines of 2014 has meant they've been too constrained to actually try new things.
WotC hates Ranger players. Honestly, no reason to play the class for role playing flavor or for combat. Every other class has more utility, damage, and flavor. This is quite insulting.
The purpose of the free casts/prep of Hunter's Mark is to free up spell slots and spells prepared for more utility spells and unlock the Ranger spell list. I really liked Primal Awareness for this approach, but I can see this as a cleaner option. The ranger spell list has some of the best utility options in the game, and having more slots and prep allows them access to that.
The point of these changes and the changes to paladin is to get the Ranger using the rest of their spell list. Combat wise the Ranger will be fine (assuming they revert HM back to damage on each hit from where it was in the playtest), but so much of this class is going to hinge on the final text of Hunter's Mark.
Two weapon fighting/light property/nick will enable the Ranger two weapon fight in a reasonable way while keeping their bonus action clean. That takes what was a terrible fighting approach and starts making it viable again. HM will keep the Ranger on par or exceeding most of the other martials up until tier 3 and at that point you have 3rd and then 4th level spells to play with to keep up.
Of note, the extra batch of expertise at 9th level is going to allow the Ranger to really excel in 3 skills and (outside of the rogue) really be great at their jobs.
"Overall I think it is two steps forward one step back (and both steps forward were made in Tasha's)."
This is a great way to put it, will be using this lol
The problem is ranger no longer have unique features for their jobs. Especially when it comes to rogues.
A rogue can spend most of its expertise on ranger skills and get reliable talent. Skills aren't enough. At least phb rangers could regularly forage better or travel faster.
Rangers and rogues used to share as easy of access to poison builds. Thief could apply it fast in combat meanwhile assassin could end combat early. Phb beastmasters at least had easy harvesting access. Now rogues can just spend damage for poison.
For kiting and movement rogues have BA dash (which can mimic climb and swim speeds) at least phb rangers had unique difficult terrain movement. They still have "speed" spells but that comes whit its own cost.
Thow in a rogue/druid mc and this time around it really is better than a ranger.
Each class should have its own unique reasons for existing. Even if it's mostly lore/world building some mechanical backup is necessary.
If the point as you say is to get the Ranger using other spells in their list then this is a massive fail. The entire renovation of the class (and portions of the subclasses eg Hunter esp.) is fully dependent upon Hunter’s Mark, which requires (still, for unknown reason - and don’t tell me b/c it was too powerful without- that is BS) concentration.
If the Ranger eschews HM then he is losing out on a big aspect of the new class rework. If he casts it, then he is missing out on all the sexy new spell. It’s a massive own goal and one that was easily avoidable. Want to know how? Check out how Tales of the Valiant wrote their Ranger. It is gorgeous in it’s simplicity and it is why I’ll be playing ToV before WotC’s half baked effort of 5.5.
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Don't be Lawful Evil