I have a 3rd level gloomstaker with pole-arm master and I had an idea that I may not sure if it work. 1)cast Hunter's Mark before I get too close 2) attack 3)as a bonus attack cast Zephyr Strike 4)attack with Dread Ambusher 5) run up to 70 feet away if need be
I have some questions and concerns 1)Does casting Hunters mark the first time automatically start combat? 2) Can I attack cast a spell as a bonus action then use Dread Ambusher? I don't think this will work but I just wanted to make sure
It’s an interesting question. I think you could argue the marking doesn’t register with the target necessarily, but you do you have to be within 90’ (the spell’s range), and use a verbal component. I think it’s possible to say something out loud that someone 90’ away couldn’t hear, depending on what the other environment is and how aware someone was generally. It would take at least a stealth roll.
Zephyr strike and hunters mark are both concentration spells so they can not be active at the same time.
1. No, it's a concentration spell that last for 1 hour. Casting it at higher levels makes the effect last even longer.
2. Dread ambusher works with weapon attacks on the first round of initiative only. With that said if you were to multiclass cast a cantrip as a bonus action with a class that allowed that then attack with your weapon, yes.
The short answer is no. Dread ambusher only works on the first round of combat, and you can't mark something outside of combat, so your dread ambusher attack /must/ be used in the same round as hunters mark or not at all. Additionally, as others have already pointed out hunters mark and zephyr strike both take your concentration, so you can't have them both active at the same time.
1. Yes. Hunters mark must be cast/applied in a combat round. Even if you already have it active, it requires a bonus action to apply it.
2. Yes. As long as you use your action to perform the attack action (not cast a spell), you can use dread ambusher. What you do with your bonus action is irrelevant to when you take the attack action.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I agree with most of your post, but, while it is most definitely cheese you can precast huntersmark. You can designate a new target while the spell lasts, provided that you killed your initial target. The cheese is in huntersmarking a random weak creature and then killing it. While you maintain concentration you can bonus action designate your next target, allowing you to mark a target without casting the spell.
Yes, but it has to be a bonus action /subsequent/ to when you kill the previous target. As per the spell:
If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to mark a new creature.
That means that they can't kill a mouse before they break camp and mark something right away. They would have to wait til they are at a new combat. They're only going to have a maximum one bonus action before they use dread ambusher. That bonus action will be for applying hunter's mark or zephyr strike, but never both (even if you didn't factor in the concentration thing). You don't have to cast the spell, but you have to spend the bonus action.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Right, I mentioned that it has to be within the duration of the spell. Meaning you can either have done this an hour prior to your 'ambush' round or if you cast it at a higher level Hunters Mark lasts up to 24hrs. You still have turns outside of initiative, they just aren't tracked.
1. Yes. Hunters mark must be cast/applied in a combat round. Even if you already have it active, it requires a bonus action to apply it.
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I didn't see anywhere in the books where this is explicitly stated which is part of the reason for these post. It doesn't cause damage at least not directly ,there is no save and the target may not know that the spell was casted on them
Hunter's Mark gives you advantage on any perception or Survival checks. That feature becomes less useful if you can not cast Hunter's Mark out of combat .
let's quote the entire relevant text: you have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it.
That means that the target must already be marked. The act of marking requires you to spend a bonus action. Now your DM /may/ allow you to mark outside of combat, but that's his call. No DM I have played with would allow cheesing the system like that. You're putting a negative feature on the enemy; that's combat.
Regardless of how your DM rules that part, you cant have two concentration spells active at the same time anyway, so it still will not work.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
let's quote the entire relevant text: you have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it.
That means that the target must already be marked. The act of marking requires you to spend a bonus action. Now your DM /may/ allow you to mark outside of combat, but that's his call. No DM I have played with would allow cheesing the system like that. You're putting a negative feature on the enemy; that's combat.
Regardless of how your DM rules that part, you cant have two concentration spells active at the same time anyway, so it still will not work.
Assuming The DM rules I can mark someone without starting combat
I cast Zephyr Strike in between the first attack and Dread Ambusher this will end hunters mark so I won't 2 concentration spells active at the same time .
If the DM rules marking someone always start combat then when is having advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) checks really useful?
It is, but it is situational. Essentially, with that ruling, the advantage is for tracking down your target if they escape. Personally, as there are no outward effects that could inform the target other than your voice as you cast it, i usually allow Huntersmark to not alert the target. If the target is especially perceptive or has special senses, then i do not allow it... but that is all just my table ruling.
I see no problem with casting Hunter's Mark outside of combat and I don't think my DM would either. But as others have said, as soon as you cast Zephyr Strike, Hunter's Mark ends so there is no point casting it in the first place. I don't know about using a bonus action in the middle of an action since the regular attack and the Dread Ambusher are all part of the same action but that's a little nit-picky. You could just cast the Zephyr Strike before the regular attack to avoid the nit-pick.
Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.
Even if it would start combat the creatures would still not be aware of the Spell and you and would waste their turn.
Unfortunately you can't cast between the single attacks of one attack action. (Dread Ambusher: ...If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action....)
You can only move between attacks becasue of the special rules for Movement from the PHB, page 190:
Breaking Up Your Move
You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet.
Moving between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
Unfortunately you can't cast between the single attacks of one attack action. (Dread Ambusher: ...If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action....)
Bonus actions that have no timing restrictions can be used at any point during your turn, including between attacks on your attack action. It is only bonus actions that rely on you taking the Attack action, such as the PAM bonus action, that require you to complete your full Attack action before using them.
The only iffy part of the OP's option was whether or not Hunter's Mark initiates combat, which is going to be completely up to the DM and the situation.
let's quote the entire relevant text: you have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it.
That means that the target must already be marked. The act of marking requires you to spend a bonus action. Now your DM /may/ allow you to mark outside of combat, but that's his call. No DM I have played with would allow cheesing the system like that. You're putting a negative feature on the enemy; that's combat.
Regardless of how your DM rules that part, you cant have two concentration spells active at the same time anyway, so it still will not work.
Assuming The DM rules I can mark someone without starting combat
I cast Zephyr Strike in between the first attack and Dread Ambusher this will end hunters mark so I won't 2 concentration spells active at the same time .
If the DM rules marking someone always start combat then when is having advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) checks really useful?
When you have them marked, and they pull a successful hide on you.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In the varient rules hunters mark is not concentration and you can cast as many as wisdom modifier. Still bonus action. And you have to have rolled iniative to get a bonus action. It can be used first. But it is a spell and you can't 2 in same turn. Turn one iniative is rolled use bonus action to cast hunters mark. Then attack and attack using dread ambusher. Next turn cast zephyr as bonus action first and attack. Also make sure your fighting in dark lol
Bonus Actions can be used out of combat. Bonus Actions aren't special in this regard—all spells take an action of some kind to cast, and if you couldn't take "combat" actions outside of combat, you couldn't cast any spell out of combat.
when you're applying an effect to an enemy though, that's combat.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Lets assume Hunters Mark Starts Combat. What will the enemies do, since they probably have no idea that one of them was marked if they arent able to detect magic? When will the combat end if the players dont decide to engage?
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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I have a 3rd level gloomstaker with pole-arm master and I had an idea that I may not sure if it work.
1)cast Hunter's Mark before I get too close
2) attack
3)as a bonus attack cast Zephyr Strike
4)attack with Dread Ambusher
5) run up to 70 feet away if need be
I have some questions and concerns
1)Does casting Hunters mark the first time automatically start combat?
2) Can I attack cast a spell as a bonus action then use Dread Ambusher?
I don't think this will work but I just wanted to make sure
It’s an interesting question. I think you could argue the marking doesn’t register with the target necessarily, but you do you have to be within 90’ (the spell’s range), and use a verbal component. I think it’s possible to say something out loud that someone 90’ away couldn’t hear, depending on what the other environment is and how aware someone was generally. It would take at least a stealth roll.
Zephyr strike and hunters mark are both concentration spells so they can not be active at the same time.
1. No, it's a concentration spell that last for 1 hour. Casting it at higher levels makes the effect last even longer.
2. Dread ambusher works with weapon attacks on the first round of initiative only. With that said if you were to multiclass cast a cantrip as a bonus action with a class that allowed that then attack with your weapon, yes.
The short answer is no. Dread ambusher only works on the first round of combat, and you can't mark something outside of combat, so your dread ambusher attack /must/ be used in the same round as hunters mark or not at all. Additionally, as others have already pointed out hunters mark and zephyr strike both take your concentration, so you can't have them both active at the same time.
1. Yes. Hunters mark must be cast/applied in a combat round. Even if you already have it active, it requires a bonus action to apply it.
2. Yes. As long as you use your action to perform the attack action (not cast a spell), you can use dread ambusher. What you do with your bonus action is irrelevant to when you take the attack action.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree with most of your post, but, while it is most definitely cheese you can precast huntersmark. You can designate a new target while the spell lasts, provided that you killed your initial target. The cheese is in huntersmarking a random weak creature and then killing it. While you maintain concentration you can bonus action designate your next target, allowing you to mark a target without casting the spell.
Yes, but it has to be a bonus action /subsequent/ to when you kill the previous target. As per the spell:
If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to mark a new creature.
That means that they can't kill a mouse before they break camp and mark something right away. They would have to wait til they are at a new combat. They're only going to have a maximum one bonus action before they use dread ambusher. That bonus action will be for applying hunter's mark or zephyr strike, but never both (even if you didn't factor in the concentration thing). You don't have to cast the spell, but you have to spend the bonus action.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Right, I mentioned that it has to be within the duration of the spell. Meaning you can either have done this an hour prior to your 'ambush' round or if you cast it at a higher level Hunters Mark lasts up to 24hrs. You still have turns outside of initiative, they just aren't tracked.
I didn't see anywhere in the books where this is explicitly stated which is part of the reason for these post. It doesn't cause damage at least not directly ,there is no save and the target may not know that the spell was casted on them
Hunter's Mark gives you advantage on any perception or Survival checks. That feature becomes less useful if you can not cast Hunter's Mark out of combat .
let's quote the entire relevant text: you have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find it.
That means that the target must already be marked. The act of marking requires you to spend a bonus action. Now your DM /may/ allow you to mark outside of combat, but that's his call. No DM I have played with would allow cheesing the system like that. You're putting a negative feature on the enemy; that's combat.
Regardless of how your DM rules that part, you cant have two concentration spells active at the same time anyway, so it still will not work.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Assuming The DM rules I can mark someone without starting combat
I cast Zephyr Strike in between the first attack and Dread Ambusher this will end hunters mark so I won't 2 concentration spells active at the same time .
If the DM rules marking someone always start combat then when is having advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) checks really useful?
It is, but it is situational. Essentially, with that ruling, the advantage is for tracking down your target if they escape. Personally, as there are no outward effects that could inform the target other than your voice as you cast it, i usually allow Huntersmark to not alert the target. If the target is especially perceptive or has special senses, then i do not allow it... but that is all just my table ruling.
I see no problem with casting Hunter's Mark outside of combat and I don't think my DM would either. But as others have said, as soon as you cast Zephyr Strike, Hunter's Mark ends so there is no point casting it in the first place. I don't know about using a bonus action in the middle of an action since the regular attack and the Dread Ambusher are all part of the same action but that's a little nit-picky. You could just cast the Zephyr Strike before the regular attack to avoid the nit-pick.
Even if it would start combat the creatures would still not be aware of the Spell and you and would waste their turn.
Unfortunately you can't cast between the single attacks of one attack action. (Dread Ambusher: ...If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action....)
You can only move between attacks becasue of the special rules for Movement from the PHB, page 190:
Bonus actions that have no timing restrictions can be used at any point during your turn, including between attacks on your attack action. It is only bonus actions that rely on you taking the Attack action, such as the PAM bonus action, that require you to complete your full Attack action before using them.
The only iffy part of the OP's option was whether or not Hunter's Mark initiates combat, which is going to be completely up to the DM and the situation.
When you have them marked, and they pull a successful hide on you.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
In the varient rules hunters mark is not concentration and you can cast as many as wisdom modifier. Still bonus action. And you have to have rolled iniative to get a bonus action. It can be used first. But it is a spell and you can't 2 in same turn. Turn one iniative is rolled use bonus action to cast hunters mark. Then attack and attack using dread ambusher. Next turn cast zephyr as bonus action first and attack. Also make sure your fighting in dark lol
Bonus Actions can be used out of combat. Bonus Actions aren't special in this regard—all spells take an action of some kind to cast, and if you couldn't take "combat" actions outside of combat, you couldn't cast any spell out of combat.
when you're applying an effect to an enemy though, that's combat.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Lets assume Hunters Mark Starts Combat. What will the enemies do, since they probably have no idea that one of them was marked if they arent able to detect magic? When will the combat end if the players dont decide to engage?
They do nothing. Combat ends when there's no reason to continue tracking.
The whole reason this is even an issue is the OP was trying to rules lawyer and semantics his way to an extra d6 damage in round 1.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha