One of my players is an Arcane Trickster rogue, and has just hit level 6.
I have noticed that in combat, his role tends to be quite routine, and his turns are generally the same sequence over and over:
Move out of hiding (or don't if he has a line of sight)
Attack a target where he will benefit from Sneak Attack using a ranged weapon
Use Cunning Action to hide again
This seems to be the optimal way of playing the class in combat. Unless he gets discovered or fails the Hide check, enemies generally won't be able to reach him and he can always Dash back out of range if threatened. It seems an effective way of playing the class, but I'm concerned that in stand-up fights, it almost feels like his decisions are made for him about what's most useful to do outside of choosing what to shoot.
I feel that the encounters I'm running are pretty varied, and I deliberately put in certain 'stealth mode' elements for him to cut some guards throats or use thieves tools, but it's the major combats that I'm worrying might feel a little flat for him and I want to max out the fun as much as possible. The other members of the group - a paladin, a battlemaster and a druid - seem to have much more opportunity to make dramatic impacts on a fight as they can all apply conditions (even the fighter can Trip attack, shove, and change the course of an encounter with use of Action Surge) or cast spells.
Some recent encounters I've run have included:
A wyvern and its dismounted sorcerer rider (fairly open field but with some boulders and trees for cover)
Three tough undead minions (roughly orog stats) with their necromancer leader, in a library filled with line of sight blocking bookshelves
An ambush from a wereboar, a cult fanatic and some minor cultists armed with bows up on a cliff edge
I feel that the encounters I'm laying down are pretty varied, but the rogue players game turns are becoming really routine. Any thoughts on good encounters you've played through that have forced your rogue to change combat style, or ways in which I can offer him more dynamic options and exciting gameplay?
Ranged attackers can hold action to attack him or just attack with disadvantage when he's hidden.
As for forcing him to change his combat tactics, aside from the rogue you have 2-3 melee and 0-1 ranged, it's rather expected that he will decide to stick to ranged attacks. Doubly so if terrain allows him to attack from hiding and get advantage from it. As for optimal, that depends on what he's trying to optimize. If it's damage, melee cantrips or dual wielding would serve him better.
The real questions are how much of your game is combat? and is the rogue player having fun? If your game is almost entirely combat, having repetitive turns is more likely to end up being a problem. If the rogue player derives fun from something other than finding the best way to overcome a combat challenge, forcing him (or allowing him) to change tactics isn't likely to make the game more fun, and may even have the opposite effect.
When I play ranged my natural inclination is to take high ground wherever possible, e.g- ledges, towers etc. But a fun twist a DM can give is when they don't prove as safe as I'd like, for example if it's unstable and starts collapsing after a turn or two (or a big enemy attack), or I climb a tower only to find enemy ranged fighters were hiding there and I suddenly have to fight them without the benefit of range.
While it's not normally possible to stow a bow and draw another weapon (you can do one or the other with your free object interaction, but not both), you can always drop a bow for free, but this can add a level of tension as the last thing you want is to lose your ranged weapon, this can force a decision between dropping it to draw a dagger/rapier, or using it as an improvised weapon with none of your best bonuses.
That said, an Arcane Trickster really shouldn't feel stuck into a pattern; having access to spells gives you a ton of extra utility, including things that can help the group. A caster should always thinking about which spells they actually use; sometimes casting a spell that helps the group is more valuable than attacking, for example to limit the number of enemies the group has to fight in a single round, knock some prone so the fighter that can destroy them and so-on. Arcane Tricksters can normally only swap out spells on a level up, but if your player would like to swap more of the list to improve variety you could let them do more at once.
There are also some options for adding non-combat Rogue stuff into combat. A few ideas off the top of my head:
Confronted by a powerful, newly transformed lich, you could have the enemy's strength tied to a crystal or phylactery. With huge effort the group might bring it down normally, but a stealthy rogue taking out the crystal/phylactery could significantly weaken the boss by evading whatever protections are around the weak point, or getting at it with a mage hand.
Tough, Huge enemy in an area with a Small but locked door; a few tense rounds trying to pick the lock could be what enables the group to escape something that they won't be able to beat.
Fight with a very important looking locked chest; do you wait until the enemies are defeated, or try to pick the lock in case the chest contains exactly what you need to win the fight?
Hopefully something in that word wall provides some inspiration!
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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When I play ranged my natural inclination is to take high ground wherever possible, e.g- ledges, towers etc. But a fun twist a DM can give is when they don't prove as safe as I'd like, for example if it's unstable and starts collapsing after a turn or two (or a big enemy attack), or I climb a tower only to find enemy ranged fighters were hiding there and I suddenly have to fight them without the benefit of range.
While it's not normally possible to stow a bow and draw another weapon (you can do one or the other with your free object interaction, but not both), you can always drop a bow for free, but this can add a level of tension as the last thing you want is to lose your ranged weapon, this can force a decision between dropping it to draw a dagger/rapier, or using it as an improvised weapon with none of your best bonuses.
That said, an Arcane Trickster really shouldn't feel stuck into a pattern; having access to spells gives you a ton of extra utility, including things that can help the group. A caster should always thinking about which spells they actually use; sometimes casting a spell that helps the group is more valuable than attacking, for example to limit the number of enemies the group has to fight in a single round, knock some prone so the fighter that can destroy them and so-on. Arcane Tricksters can normally only swap out spells on a level up, but if your player would like to swap more of the list to improve variety you could let them do more at once.
There are also some options for adding non-combat Rogue stuff into combat. A few ideas off the top of my head:
Confronted by a powerful, newly transformed lich, you could have the enemy's strength tied to a crystal or phylactery. With huge effort the group might bring it down normally, but a stealthy rogue taking out the crystal/phylactery could significantly weaken the boss by evading whatever protections are around the weak point, or getting at it with a mage hand.
Tough, Huge enemy in an area with a Small but locked door; a few tense rounds trying to pick the lock could be what enables the group to escape something that won't be able to beat.
Fight with a very important looking locked chest; do you wait until the enemies are defeated, or try to pick the lock in case the chest contains exactly what you need to win the fight?
Hopefully something in that word wall provides some inspiration!
It should be mentioned that the rogue wouldn't have to drop the bow to be able to attack with a single 1 handed weapon. They could draw a shortsword and attack on one turn, stow the bow on the next and attack with the shortsword, and then draw a second shortsword on the next turn to attack with both on the third turn, if that's how they wanted to fight. If attacking with a rapier, they wouldn't even have to stow the bow. They wouldn't be able to attack with the bow until they stowed the melee weapon per the Two-handed property.
edit: Unfortunately the tool tip doesn't have the full text.
Two-Handed. This weapon requires two hands when you attack with it. This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.
Fireball or other AoE spells around where he is hiding would also be an option just in case combat challenges is something you decide to employ.
This is a great option, particularly if you can get at least one teammate in the blast range too. Anything that can cast AOE would likely have known where the rogue went and might be willing to try to weed the rogue out with such a spell. Rogue's have options to help with that, but it will at least put something in the player's mind that they won't be completely safe just because they hid. Additionally, they shouldn't get advantage on the attack if they aren't hidden when they make the attack. They can still get the sneak attack bonus due to the number of melee fighter that are in the party (who are likely to be within 5 ft of an enemy), but it won't be as likely to hit. Stepping behind cover and hiding just means that the enemies lost sight of the rogue and aren't certain where they're at. They'll be attacking with disadvantage and through at least half cover if they are going to try to probe the area with arrows or Fire bolts.
Another option that would be available would be to have a creature cast something like Fog Cloud in the space between where the rogue was last seen and the enemy position. This will force the rogue to come out into the open more to attack and a held AOE targeting the Fog Cloud (or other phenomena) can damage the rogue when they do poke they're head out of the cover that was thrown down. Having someone cast Darkness on the bow would also be a way to force the rogue to change up tactics.
Don't use these tactics all of the time, particularly if the rogue likes to be able to just line up the attack. Some people don't like the complexity of too many choices when it comes to combat. They are content usually doing the same thing over and over again. But changing things up every now and then can still keep it fresh for those players, putting a sense of danger every time they stick their head out to take a shot.
After a time combating counters all become monotonous regardless of class. And maybe you're reading your bones from the wrong angle. I would say that a ranged rogue has so much opportunity for "dramatic impact" that you're seeing them as commonplace.
What if rogues could only use sneak attack a number of times equal to their dexterity modifier? That is to say what if this person stopped using sneak attacks and just stood out in the open firing away? How much less damage would they be doing in the average encounter?
And would you be feeling the same way if this person was using a melee weapon to backstab instead? Hide, move to flank, sneak attack, and then rinse and repeat...
After a time combating counters all become monotonous regardless of class. And maybe you're reading your bones from the wrong angle. I would say that a ranged rogue has so much opportunity for "dramatic impact" that you're seeing them as commonplace. What is rogue could only use sneak attack a number of times equal to their dexterity modifier? That is to say what if this person stopped using sneak attacks and just stood out in the open firing away? How much less damage would they be doing in the average encounter?
And would you be feeling the same way if this person was using a melee weapon to backstab instead? Hide, move to flank, sneak attack, and then rinse and repeat...
Don't limit sneak attack. That's just not intended ever.
Even if the rogue hides immediately after taking their shot, the rogue still gives away their position and everyone knows the direction the shot came from. Unless the rogue is also moving about from one source of cover to another, an enemy can just move over and find them. Especially if they can fly and/or teleport.
That said, the arcane trickster archetype gives the rogue access to (albeit limited) spellcasting. They should absolutely be using that to try and mix up the battle. They specialize in both the enchantment and illusion schools. Just looking at the PHB, they can have color spray and Tasha's hideous laughter at 3rd-level. And now they're at 6th, with 4 known spells. They're about to hit 7th, which is a sizable jump in power. They'll have 2nd-level spells like [spell[hold person[/spell] and invisibility at their disposal.
I'm not sure your encounters are the problem. The player doesn't seem interested in doing more with their rogue. On the other hand, what spells have they learned? Are they using them more for supporting the Interaction/Social pillar of the game? If so, maybe you should give them more of that.
The comparable lack of dramatic playing taken by the Rogue in combat is actually symptomatic of the Rogue's class mechanics, for which your player can't truly be blame. The effectiveness of a Rogue hiding, using illusion magic or general subterfuge and misdirection means that playing the class effectively requires a rogue play to be – perhaps more so than any other class. Their lvl 2 Cunning Action ability alone tells the Rogue all they need to know that their play style will require them to hyper aware of distance, terrain, cover and concealment. This in turn forces Rogues to think and play 'by the grid' (referring to 5ft squares on a map grid), so often little room is left in a Rogue's mind for more theatric play. Since 5e offers combat very little in the way of tactical choice compared to previous editions, particularly for melee martial classes, you'll see that Paladins and Barbarians are way more inclined to roleplay their combat actions, employ theatre of the mind, or lobby a DM for The Rule of Cool to keep combat fresh through the class levels
A Word of Caution
Particularly with the case of Rogues and Illusionist Wizards (of which the AT subclass is effectively both), your word & ruling as a DM has a unique amount of weight and consequence on both the effectiveness and funability of the Rogue class, perhaps more so than any of the other classes
Although this most often applies more heavily to the Rogue's out-of-combat skills set, you still need to be very careful about how much you try to limit the Rogue as it will have a huge impact on his gaming experience. A heavy hand can can make combat and gameplay in general feel completely flat and unfulfilling for Rogue players.
I'd strongly suggest you avoid nerfing any of the Rogue's abilities (which is a huge turnoff) but instead make it more interesting for both you and your AT by presenting difficult tactical decisions and scenarios for your AT player
Present Problems, Not Punishments
Rogue's are natural skirmishers and employ a highly mobile fighting style, and thus get comfortable if not presented with challenges and tradeoffs. Give your Rogue a variety of sticky combat situations. Some combats should swim in their favour, while others should be a strategic quagmire.
Introduce Enemy Monks
If a monster/enemy exists with a comparable mechanic to the Monk's Deflect Missile feature, this will present a huge challenge to Rogues who rely completely on ranged missile attacks. In this way, a Monk can essentially ignore incoming fire from the Rogue and force them into melee if they wish to support their party in combat. Not only that, the Monk's Deflect Missiles feature allows the Monk to use their Ki to send the missile back at your Rogue.
Introduce Enemy Rogues
Others have already mentioned the option for enemy ranged attackers, which is a great suggestion. A way to take this further is to play your Rogue at his own scoot-n-shoot game. By introducing enemy Rogues in combat. Potentially too mobile and stealthy for the rest of your party, hidden and holding their actions, enemy rogues present a tactical problem for your AT player – every time he sticks his head out to shoot, he'll receive a counter-volley from enemies who attack with advantage and trigger their own sneak attacks, only to retreat to hide. Counter-sniping at it's finest.
There will of course be a good number of encounters and monsters to choose from that supply your foes with similar skirmishing abilities to humanoid Rogue and Monk foes.
Things that give Rogues a hard time:
Foes with multi-attacks: At 5th lvl, Rogues can use their reaction to trigger Uncanny Dodge which halves damage from that attack. This only applies to one attack, so softer, multiple blows spread across a number of attacks will give them a hard time.
By the same virtue, Rogues are easily overwhelmed by multiple enemies. One of the hardest choices a Rogue can make in combat is between dishing out a Opportunity Attack (which benefits from a Sneak attack, since it doesn't take place on the Rogue's turn) and maximising greater survivability through their Uncanny Dodge, which also requires a reaction. To add, Rogues that aren't duel-wielding are confined to a single attack on their turn, meaning a swarm of multiple enemies can induce panic or force them to consider their a wider breadth of tactical options (an AT with the Sleep spell comes to mind for dealing with a swarm of low CR enemies) like you expressed a desire to see.
Hi,
One of my players is an Arcane Trickster rogue, and has just hit level 6.
I have noticed that in combat, his role tends to be quite routine, and his turns are generally the same sequence over and over:
This seems to be the optimal way of playing the class in combat. Unless he gets discovered or fails the Hide check, enemies generally won't be able to reach him and he can always Dash back out of range if threatened. It seems an effective way of playing the class, but I'm concerned that in stand-up fights, it almost feels like his decisions are made for him about what's most useful to do outside of choosing what to shoot.
I feel that the encounters I'm running are pretty varied, and I deliberately put in certain 'stealth mode' elements for him to cut some guards throats or use thieves tools, but it's the major combats that I'm worrying might feel a little flat for him and I want to max out the fun as much as possible. The other members of the group - a paladin, a battlemaster and a druid - seem to have much more opportunity to make dramatic impacts on a fight as they can all apply conditions (even the fighter can Trip attack, shove, and change the course of an encounter with use of Action Surge) or cast spells.
Some recent encounters I've run have included:
I feel that the encounters I'm laying down are pretty varied, but the rogue players game turns are becoming really routine. Any thoughts on good encounters you've played through that have forced your rogue to change combat style, or ways in which I can offer him more dynamic options and exciting gameplay?
Ranged attackers can hold action to attack him or just attack with disadvantage when he's hidden.
As for forcing him to change his combat tactics, aside from the rogue you have 2-3 melee and 0-1 ranged, it's rather expected that he will decide to stick to ranged attacks. Doubly so if terrain allows him to attack from hiding and get advantage from it. As for optimal, that depends on what he's trying to optimize. If it's damage, melee cantrips or dual wielding would serve him better.
The real questions are how much of your game is combat? and is the rogue player having fun? If your game is almost entirely combat, having repetitive turns is more likely to end up being a problem. If the rogue player derives fun from something other than finding the best way to overcome a combat challenge, forcing him (or allowing him) to change tactics isn't likely to make the game more fun, and may even have the opposite effect.
When I play ranged my natural inclination is to take high ground wherever possible, e.g- ledges, towers etc. But a fun twist a DM can give is when they don't prove as safe as I'd like, for example if it's unstable and starts collapsing after a turn or two (or a big enemy attack), or I climb a tower only to find enemy ranged fighters were hiding there and I suddenly have to fight them without the benefit of range.
While it's not normally possible to stow a bow and draw another weapon (you can do one or the other with your free object interaction, but not both), you can always drop a bow for free, but this can add a level of tension as the last thing you want is to lose your ranged weapon, this can force a decision between dropping it to draw a dagger/rapier, or using it as an improvised weapon with none of your best bonuses.
That said, an Arcane Trickster really shouldn't feel stuck into a pattern; having access to spells gives you a ton of extra utility, including things that can help the group. A caster should always thinking about which spells they actually use; sometimes casting a spell that helps the group is more valuable than attacking, for example to limit the number of enemies the group has to fight in a single round, knock some prone so the fighter that can destroy them and so-on. Arcane Tricksters can normally only swap out spells on a level up, but if your player would like to swap more of the list to improve variety you could let them do more at once.
There are also some options for adding non-combat Rogue stuff into combat. A few ideas off the top of my head:
Hopefully something in that word wall provides some inspiration!
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It should be mentioned that the rogue wouldn't have to drop the bow to be able to attack with a single 1 handed weapon. They could draw a shortsword and attack on one turn, stow the bow on the next and attack with the shortsword, and then draw a second shortsword on the next turn to attack with both on the third turn, if that's how they wanted to fight. If attacking with a rapier, they wouldn't even have to stow the bow. They wouldn't be able to attack with the bow until they stowed the melee weapon per the Two-handed property.
edit: Unfortunately the tool tip doesn't have the full text.
Two-Handed. This weapon requires two hands when you attack with it. This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/equipment#Weapons
Fireball or other AoE spells around where he is hiding would also be an option just in case combat challenges is something you decide to employ.
This is a great option, particularly if you can get at least one teammate in the blast range too. Anything that can cast AOE would likely have known where the rogue went and might be willing to try to weed the rogue out with such a spell. Rogue's have options to help with that, but it will at least put something in the player's mind that they won't be completely safe just because they hid. Additionally, they shouldn't get advantage on the attack if they aren't hidden when they make the attack. They can still get the sneak attack bonus due to the number of melee fighter that are in the party (who are likely to be within 5 ft of an enemy), but it won't be as likely to hit. Stepping behind cover and hiding just means that the enemies lost sight of the rogue and aren't certain where they're at. They'll be attacking with disadvantage and through at least half cover if they are going to try to probe the area with arrows or Fire bolts.
Another option that would be available would be to have a creature cast something like Fog Cloud in the space between where the rogue was last seen and the enemy position. This will force the rogue to come out into the open more to attack and a held AOE targeting the Fog Cloud (or other phenomena) can damage the rogue when they do poke they're head out of the cover that was thrown down. Having someone cast Darkness on the bow would also be a way to force the rogue to change up tactics.
Don't use these tactics all of the time, particularly if the rogue likes to be able to just line up the attack. Some people don't like the complexity of too many choices when it comes to combat. They are content usually doing the same thing over and over again. But changing things up every now and then can still keep it fresh for those players, putting a sense of danger every time they stick their head out to take a shot.
After a time combating counters all become monotonous regardless of class. And maybe you're reading your bones from the wrong angle. I would say that a ranged rogue has so much opportunity for "dramatic impact" that you're seeing them as commonplace.
What if rogues could only use sneak attack a number of times equal to their dexterity modifier? That is to say what if this person stopped using sneak attacks and just stood out in the open firing away? How much less damage would they be doing in the average encounter?
And would you be feeling the same way if this person was using a melee weapon to backstab instead? Hide, move to flank, sneak attack, and then rinse and repeat...
Don't limit sneak attack. That's just not intended ever.
Even if the rogue hides immediately after taking their shot, the rogue still gives away their position and everyone knows the direction the shot came from. Unless the rogue is also moving about from one source of cover to another, an enemy can just move over and find them. Especially if they can fly and/or teleport.
That said, the arcane trickster archetype gives the rogue access to (albeit limited) spellcasting. They should absolutely be using that to try and mix up the battle. They specialize in both the enchantment and illusion schools. Just looking at the PHB, they can have color spray and Tasha's hideous laughter at 3rd-level. And now they're at 6th, with 4 known spells. They're about to hit 7th, which is a sizable jump in power. They'll have 2nd-level spells like [spell[hold person[/spell] and invisibility at their disposal.
I'm not sure your encounters are the problem. The player doesn't seem interested in doing more with their rogue. On the other hand, what spells have they learned? Are they using them more for supporting the Interaction/Social pillar of the game? If so, maybe you should give them more of that.
It's in their blood
The comparable lack of dramatic playing taken by the Rogue in combat is actually symptomatic of the Rogue's class mechanics, for which your player can't truly be blame. The effectiveness of a Rogue hiding, using illusion magic or general subterfuge and misdirection means that playing the class effectively requires a rogue play to be – perhaps more so than any other class. Their lvl 2 Cunning Action ability alone tells the Rogue all they need to know that their play style will require them to hyper aware of distance, terrain, cover and concealment. This in turn forces Rogues to think and play 'by the grid' (referring to 5ft squares on a map grid), so often little room is left in a Rogue's mind for more theatric play. Since 5e offers combat very little in the way of tactical choice compared to previous editions, particularly for melee martial classes, you'll see that Paladins and Barbarians are way more inclined to roleplay their combat actions, employ theatre of the mind, or lobby a DM for The Rule of Cool to keep combat fresh through the class levels
A Word of Caution
Present Problems, Not Punishments
Rogue's are natural skirmishers and employ a highly mobile fighting style, and thus get comfortable if not presented with challenges and tradeoffs. Give your Rogue a variety of sticky combat situations. Some combats should swim in their favour, while others should be a strategic quagmire.
Things that give Rogues a hard time:
Vorpal blade would encourage up close.