I am trying to create a Rogue with the City/Watch Investigator background. Before he became an adventurer, he was a policeman, and because of this, he is highly skilled in the investigation of crime.
While trying to make this character, however, I have realised that he is pretty MAD. He needs to have good numbers in four ability scores.
INT - for investigation, to investigate/research crime and crime scenes
WIS - for perception, to spot clues and detect the truth
DEX - for armour class and ranged weapon attacks (he has low HP)
CHA - for persuading or intimidating criminals into telling the truth
He also needs to have a decent amount of, CON, and he can dump STR.
I am having trouble making this character because even just giving him a 10 in CON and dumping STR; I don't have enough points left over for his four primary ability scores. I also want to take the Mastermind subclass at level 3, and turn him into a tactician rather than a battlefield specialist.
I also want to take the Variant Human race, and give him the Observant feat, with a +5 to his passive investigation.
I am having a lot of trouble making this character because of how MAD he is. Could any of you help me out with suggestions on how to get the most out of the V. Human with point buy?
Weird as it is to say about a rogue, I think you could dial down the dex. The character you describe doesn't seem to me like someone who ever needed to be agile or quick, just clever and methodical. Especially if you're planning on being more of a tactician in combat. The rest of the party might get annoyed at you missing a lot, but they'll get over it when you can talk the spots off a leopard, notice everything, and throw around those bonus action helps like candy.
I think that this could be achieved with standard array. Many times have I thought a character like this would be hard, bit its not that hard. I think charisma is less important, as you need to find someone first. Remember: you get expertise is two skills, one of them should be persuasion/deception, the other insight/perception. Your abilities should look like this without racial mods: 8 strength, 10 charisma, 12 con, 13 wisdom OR intelligence (perceptive or smart), 14 in the other, dex 15. I might say wisdom 14, considering your observant feat. You could swap the 13 and 12, so 13 con. Buff up the dex and con. You now have: 8 strength, 10 charisma, 12 intelligence, 14 con and wisdom, 16 dex.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I am currently playing a halfling detective in a metropolis game and I had the same sort of issues at first. I took three levels of fighter to get battlemaster and pick up the maneuver Studious Eye which adds the superiority die to Insight or Investigation at anytime. The UA feat Martial Adept would allow it as well. Adding my first expertise to Insight and Investigate which are the primary skills to detect lies and detect anomalies over perception which is just a passive observance made a lot of sense. If you are in a crime scene, your GM should be asking for investigation checks not perception and being able to read people is just amazing as well with Insight. If you are chasing a suspect and they are dodging around the street, you need to make perception checks to keep on their heels.
My stats are: STR 10, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHR 14. Most of the time your skills can be augmented by the 'Help' action or maybe even 'Guidance' depending on your party make-up. Plus you took Observant which already puts your base perception and investigation numbers through the roof in game usage. Nothing is going to escape your gaze as is. I took Magic Initiate to get a familiar and keep a small brass brazier and a detective bag full of herbs to burn in case I need to change the familiar for their specific abilities as well. I usually keep a rat for scent and looking around really dark areas, but echolocation and even websense can be extraordinary tools to have on tap.
Have fun no matter what path you choose, this game I am in is sort of a noir, detective romp like the Maltese Falcon, but with swords and sorcery.
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IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Well, you have to ask yourself if you want to be an investigator or an interrogator because like someone mentioned, you need to actually find the culprit first. Also, since you want a character that can do everything in a game that isn't designed for starting characters to be good at everything, you're going to have a hard time. The easiest way not to be MAD is probably to play a Bard for JOAT at level 2.
That said, I'd say there are probably two ways to go, depending on what you want to focus on. Personally I'd drop Charisma in favour of Dexterity but it doesn't really matter that much. Intelligence is also not that important but you might not want to dump it. Basically what you need to do is compensate for lower abilities with Proficiencies and Expertise. In general your concept sounds more like an Inquisitive Rogue since that means that you don't really need proficiency in Insight since most of what you are going to use Insight for is to figure out if someone is lying. Either way, here are two suggestions that can be any subclass, both are variant human:
The Investigator: Standard point array. 8-14-12-14-16-10. Take Prodigy for your bonus Feat. Make sure you get both the Observant and Keen Mind feats to bump up your Int to 16. You could also play around with point buy to get odd numbers in both Int and Wis but in the end it won't really matter that much. You'll have pretty much the same results in the end.
The Interrogator/Skill Monkey: Standard point array; 8-14-10-14-16-12. Point buy; 8-16-10-13-15-12. Slightly better at talking to people, a bit better at combat, not so good at the start when it comes to investigating stuff.Then again, every cop starts out on the beat. Instead of the Prodigy Feat, take Skilled. Again take the Observant and Keen Mind feats to round out the stats or use point buy to play around if you only want one of the feats. Reliable Talent at lvl 11 will make sure that you don't roll too low for important rolls.
That's your character to at least level 8, you should know what you want to do with your character by then.
For myself I'd go with Half-Elf. You can pick up the observant feat at higher levels, but Half-Elf gives you an extra skill proficiency, and pumps charisma for you.
You don't need to pump too much into your stats. You have four lots of expertise that you can add to Perception, Investigation, Insight, and Persuasion.
I'd prioritize stats, Dexterity (you're a Rogue) Wisdom (Insight is the key to your Insightful Fighting) and Constitution.
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10
Starting proficiencies. Stealth, Perception, Insight, Investigation, Persuasion, Intimidation, Acrobatics, Deception. Starting Expertise. Perception, Insight. Persuasion and Investigation at level 6.
I am trying to create a Rogue with the City/Watch Investigator background. Before he became an adventurer, he was a policeman, and because of this, he is highly skilled in the investigation of crime.
While trying to make this character, however, I have realised that he is pretty MAD. He needs to have good numbers in four ability scores.
INT - for investigation, to investigate/research crime and crime scenes
WIS - for perception, to spot clues and detect the truth
DEX - for armour class and ranged weapon attacks (he has low HP)
CHA - for persuading or intimidating criminals into telling the truth
He also needs to have a decent amount of, CON, and he can dump STR.
I am having trouble making this character because even just giving him a 10 in CON and dumping STR; I don't have enough points left over for his four primary ability scores. I also want to take the Mastermind subclass at level 3, and turn him into a tactician rather than a battlefield specialist.
I also want to take the Variant Human race, and give him the Observant feat, with a +5 to his passive investigation.
I am having a lot of trouble making this character because of how MAD he is. Could any of you help me out with suggestions on how to get the most out of the V. Human with point buy?
Thanks
Foxes XD
One of the best things about rogues is the double proficiencies. Remember, you start out with double proficiency in 2 skills. Then at level 6 you get 2 more.
Additionally, you get feats at 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, and 19 for a total of 6. Most other classes (except fighter) get only 5. This allows you to be more modular than most other classes.
Variant human skill: Pick any that you think is a boost.
Skills from class: Investigation, perception, intimidation (if you really want to focus on the coaxing confessions thing) and stealth (A must-have for rogues. Otherwise you're playing a half-ass fighter.).
Skills from city watch: Athletics, insight.
Alternative background: Waterdeep detective. It's a season 8 adventurers league background that has investigation and perception.
You can have an average intelligence score of 10, maybe 12, and double your proficiency in investigation.
Next, go with a 13 in WIS, and if you're using the observant feat this gives you +1 WIS and a +5 to both passive investigation and passive perception. At level 1 you'll start with a+9 to your passive.
ALWAYS start with max dex as a rogue. You get 1 attack. Try not to miss. Also stealth, thieves tools and sleight of hand will rely on this.
If CHA is your dump stat then use a double proficiency on intimidation/persuasion/deception. Whichever you think you'll be using most in social situations.
Never dump CON because I guarantee it will be a huge regret the second you're hit with a crit at level 3 that KO's you. The first thought you'll have is, "If I took that +2 in con I'd be alive..." because at level 3 that's an extra 6 HP, which is HUGE in tier 1.
Alternatively, dump the observant feat, take intelligence to 10 to keep wisdom to 14 and then take the prodigy feat. This gives you 1 skill, 1 double proficiency, and 1 tool. Use the double proficiency on perception.
What did your character do in the city watch? Different members of the police have different skill sets and I think you are trying to be all of them.
A "bobby on the beat" needs high wisdom to spot when things are off, follow tracks and that sort of thing, they would also need high dex and reasonable con in case the bad guys resist
A "detective" needs high intelligences investigating a crime scene and trying to piece together clues
A "interigator" needs high charisma as they persuade or intimidate people to co-operate
An "under cover agent" needs high charisma to convince people he is his undercover persona and/or dex for not being seen while observing what is happening.
To go into adventuring I would say you need high dex and a decent con so while a character with 10/10/8/17/16/12 could make a very good detective but quitting to become an adventurer would not be an sensible option. (Actually Columbo would probably be something like this for those of you old enough to remember him)
I am playing a swashbuckler with an "under cover agent" background. Not book smart (of average intelligence) but able to notice things and live off there wits along with good people skills and expertise in deception. I went half elf with starting stats Str=8 Dex=15+1 Con=13+1 Int=10, Wis=14, Cha=12+2).
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Hi,
I am trying to create a Rogue with the City/Watch Investigator background. Before he became an adventurer, he was a policeman, and because of this, he is highly skilled in the investigation of crime.
While trying to make this character, however, I have realised that he is pretty MAD. He needs to have good numbers in four ability scores.
INT - for investigation, to investigate/research crime and crime scenes
WIS - for perception, to spot clues and detect the truth
DEX - for armour class and ranged weapon attacks (he has low HP)
CHA - for persuading or intimidating criminals into telling the truth
He also needs to have a decent amount of, CON, and he can dump STR.
I am having trouble making this character because even just giving him a 10 in CON and dumping STR; I don't have enough points left over for his four primary ability scores. I also want to take the Mastermind subclass at level 3, and turn him into a tactician rather than a battlefield specialist.
I also want to take the Variant Human race, and give him the Observant feat, with a +5 to his passive investigation.
I am having a lot of trouble making this character because of how MAD he is. Could any of you help me out with suggestions on how to get the most out of the V. Human with point buy?
Thanks
Foxes XD
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Weird as it is to say about a rogue, I think you could dial down the dex. The character you describe doesn't seem to me like someone who ever needed to be agile or quick, just clever and methodical. Especially if you're planning on being more of a tactician in combat. The rest of the party might get annoyed at you missing a lot, but they'll get over it when you can talk the spots off a leopard, notice everything, and throw around those bonus action helps like candy.
I think that this could be achieved with standard array. Many times have I thought a character like this would be hard, bit its not that hard. I think charisma is less important, as you need to find someone first. Remember: you get expertise is two skills, one of them should be persuasion/deception, the other insight/perception. Your abilities should look like this without racial mods: 8 strength, 10 charisma, 12 con, 13 wisdom OR intelligence (perceptive or smart), 14 in the other, dex 15. I might say wisdom 14, considering your observant feat. You could swap the 13 and 12, so 13 con. Buff up the dex and con. You now have: 8 strength, 10 charisma, 12 intelligence, 14 con and wisdom, 16 dex.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
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Expertise in skill that you have a lower stat can fix some of your drawbacks. As a rogue you get a total of 4 skills you can expertise.
I am currently playing a halfling detective in a metropolis game and I had the same sort of issues at first. I took three levels of fighter to get battlemaster and pick up the maneuver Studious Eye which adds the superiority die to Insight or Investigation at anytime. The UA feat Martial Adept would allow it as well. Adding my first expertise to Insight and Investigate which are the primary skills to detect lies and detect anomalies over perception which is just a passive observance made a lot of sense. If you are in a crime scene, your GM should be asking for investigation checks not perception and being able to read people is just amazing as well with Insight. If you are chasing a suspect and they are dodging around the street, you need to make perception checks to keep on their heels.
My stats are: STR 10, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 12, CHR 14. Most of the time your skills can be augmented by the 'Help' action or maybe even 'Guidance' depending on your party make-up. Plus you took Observant which already puts your base perception and investigation numbers through the roof in game usage. Nothing is going to escape your gaze as is. I took Magic Initiate to get a familiar and keep a small brass brazier and a detective bag full of herbs to burn in case I need to change the familiar for their specific abilities as well. I usually keep a rat for scent and looking around really dark areas, but echolocation and even websense can be extraordinary tools to have on tap.
Have fun no matter what path you choose, this game I am in is sort of a noir, detective romp like the Maltese Falcon, but with swords and sorcery.
IMHO, Earthdawn is still the best fantasy realm, Shadowrun is the best Sci-Fi realm, and Dark Sun is the best D&D realm.
Well, you have to ask yourself if you want to be an investigator or an interrogator because like someone mentioned, you need to actually find the culprit first. Also, since you want a character that can do everything in a game that isn't designed for starting characters to be good at everything, you're going to have a hard time. The easiest way not to be MAD is probably to play a Bard for JOAT at level 2.
That said, I'd say there are probably two ways to go, depending on what you want to focus on. Personally I'd drop Charisma in favour of Dexterity but it doesn't really matter that much. Intelligence is also not that important but you might not want to dump it. Basically what you need to do is compensate for lower abilities with Proficiencies and Expertise. In general your concept sounds more like an Inquisitive Rogue since that means that you don't really need proficiency in Insight since most of what you are going to use Insight for is to figure out if someone is lying. Either way, here are two suggestions that can be any subclass, both are variant human:
The Investigator:
Standard point array. 8-14-12-14-16-10. Take Prodigy for your bonus Feat. Make sure you get both the Observant and Keen Mind feats to bump up your Int to 16. You could also play around with point buy to get odd numbers in both Int and Wis but in the end it won't really matter that much. You'll have pretty much the same results in the end.
The Interrogator/Skill Monkey:
Standard point array; 8-14-10-14-16-12. Point buy; 8-16-10-13-15-12. Slightly better at talking to people, a bit better at combat, not so good at the start when it comes to investigating stuff.Then again, every cop starts out on the beat. Instead of the Prodigy Feat, take Skilled. Again take the Observant and Keen Mind feats to round out the stats or use point buy to play around if you only want one of the feats. Reliable Talent at lvl 11 will make sure that you don't roll too low for important rolls.
That's your character to at least level 8, you should know what you want to do with your character by then.
For myself I'd go with Half-Elf. You can pick up the observant feat at higher levels, but Half-Elf gives you an extra skill proficiency, and pumps charisma for you.
You don't need to pump too much into your stats. You have four lots of expertise that you can add to Perception, Investigation, Insight, and Persuasion.
I'd prioritize stats, Dexterity (you're a Rogue) Wisdom (Insight is the key to your Insightful Fighting) and Constitution.
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10
Starting proficiencies. Stealth, Perception, Insight, Investigation, Persuasion, Intimidation, Acrobatics, Deception. Starting Expertise. Perception, Insight. Persuasion and Investigation at level 6.
One of the best things about rogues is the double proficiencies. Remember, you start out with double proficiency in 2 skills. Then at level 6 you get 2 more.
Additionally, you get feats at 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, and 19 for a total of 6. Most other classes (except fighter) get only 5. This allows you to be more modular than most other classes.
Variant human skill: Pick any that you think is a boost.
Skills from class: Investigation, perception, intimidation (if you really want to focus on the coaxing confessions thing) and stealth (A must-have for rogues. Otherwise you're playing a half-ass fighter.).
Skills from city watch: Athletics, insight.
Alternative background: Waterdeep detective. It's a season 8 adventurers league background that has investigation and perception.
You can have an average intelligence score of 10, maybe 12, and double your proficiency in investigation.
Next, go with a 13 in WIS, and if you're using the observant feat this gives you +1 WIS and a +5 to both passive investigation and passive perception. At level 1 you'll start with a+9 to your passive.
ALWAYS start with max dex as a rogue. You get 1 attack. Try not to miss. Also stealth, thieves tools and sleight of hand will rely on this.
If CHA is your dump stat then use a double proficiency on intimidation/persuasion/deception. Whichever you think you'll be using most in social situations.
Never dump CON because I guarantee it will be a huge regret the second you're hit with a crit at level 3 that KO's you. The first thought you'll have is, "If I took that +2 in con I'd be alive..." because at level 3 that's an extra 6 HP, which is HUGE in tier 1.
I'd start out with this build. 8/16/14/12/14/10. Here's a link to the sample I built.
Alternatively, dump the observant feat, take intelligence to 10 to keep wisdom to 14 and then take the prodigy feat. This gives you 1 skill, 1 double proficiency, and 1 tool. Use the double proficiency on perception.
What did your character do in the city watch? Different members of the police have different skill sets and I think you are trying to be all of them.
To go into adventuring I would say you need high dex and a decent con so while a character with 10/10/8/17/16/12 could make a very good detective but quitting to become an adventurer would not be an sensible option. (Actually Columbo would probably be something like this for those of you old enough to remember him)
I am playing a swashbuckler with an "under cover agent" background. Not book smart (of average intelligence) but able to notice things and live off there wits along with good people skills and expertise in deception. I went half elf with starting stats Str=8 Dex=15+1 Con=13+1 Int=10, Wis=14, Cha=12+2).