Before I see "unarmed strikes dont count as weapon attacks", I've heard the disagreements, and for the sake of simplicity and argument, let's just say they would apply as weapon attacks.
In such case, would the Fighter-Battle Master Maneuver - Pushing Attack, and the Monk-Open Hand Technique Push, stack? Both say the target makes a strength saving throw, and on a fail, it is pushed 15 ft. back. The monk ability occurs with a flurry of blows strike, and the Fighter ability occurs after a weapon attack, i.e. an FoB strike. So could they stack and push the target 30ft. back? and if not, is it possible to force the strength save twice?
Sage Advice: The game often makes exceptions to general rules, and this is an important exception: that unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks despite not being weapons.
Also confirm by the Dev on Twitter:
@JeremyECrawford Unarmed strikes have always been weapon attacks. Here's where the confusion comes in: your unarmed strike (fist, elbow, knee, butt, etc.) is not considered by the rules to be a weapon the way a longsword is a weapon. But the rules let you make unarmed weapon attacks anyway.
Edit: All of the below is true, but on closer review, I'm answering a question that wasn't asked. Sorry.
No they do not stack. There's two problems here:
Reason the first:aShove is a special attack during the Attack action, and cannot be made as part of a Flurry of Blows bonus action
Open Hand Technique
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you can manipulate your enemy’s ki when you harness your own. Whenever you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.
It can’t take reactions until the end of your next turn.
Flurry of Blows
Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
Reason the Second: a Shove is not an Unarmed Strike, so even if Unarmed Strikes are "weapon attacks", a Shove is not.
The battlemaster manouver can be used on any "weapon attack"
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to drive the target back. You add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you push the target up to 15 feet away from you.
But a Shove is not performed with any weapon, or even with an Unarmed Strike
Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Once upon a time, Unarmed Strikes were explicitly weapons... that was errata'd in... 2017? into a confusing situation where they are used to make melee weapon attacks, but are not weapons, meaning they aren't attacks with a melee weapon and may not actually be weapon attacks at all? But that question doesn't even need to be answered, because a Shove is not an Unarmed Strike.
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.
I’m confused. Neither of these features seems to use the shove action, they’re just providing abilities. What does a shove have to do with these?
See edit. I misunderstood the question. I also am not really sure that an unarmed strike is a "weapon attack," even though it is a "melee weapon attack," because it is not an "attack with a weapon." JC/SAC's other rulings on Divine Smite indicate that he may not really think they're weapon attacks after all. But, I want them to be weapon attacks, because the errata to make Unarmed Strikes not weapons was bad and confusing and I like to ignore it whenever possible, so it isn't a hill I'm willing to die on.
I’m confused. Neither of these features seems to use the shove action, they’re just providing abilities. What does a shove have to do with these?
See edit. I misunderstood the question. I also am not really sure that an unarmed strike is a "weapon attack," even though it is a "melee weapon attack," because it is not an "attack with a weapon." JC/SAC's other rulings on Divine Smite indicate that he may not really think they're weapon attacks after all. But, I want them to be weapon attacks, because the errata to make Unarmed Strikes not weapons was bad and confusing and I like to ignore it whenever possible, so it isn't a hill I'm willing to die on.
I think unarmed strikes are "weapon attacks" which is a category defined as the set of all "melee weapon attacks" and "ranged weapon attacks". They are not "attacks with a weapon".
As to the core question; I'm uneasy with two pushing effects stacking (since I feel they must resolve sequentially and you aren't in the target location to be pushed from after the first one is finished) but I acknowledge that the rules don't prevent it and that actually the super push is a lot more fun and cinematic as this specialist warrior monk sends hapless enemies flying all over the place.
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
The maneuver's wording on weapon attack is fine and can absolutely apply to an unarmed strike (because it's 'weapon attack' and not 'attack with a weapon').
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
The maneuver's wording on weapon attack is fine and can absolutely apply to an unarmed strike (because it's 'weapon attack' and not 'attack with a weapon').
Emmber is right. They do stack, but the maximum distance they can move a creature even if stacked is 15 feet. So I could push it 10 feet with Shoving Attack, then 5 further feet with Way of the Open Hand. But neither ability can cause them to move further than 15 feet from me.
To stack them fully in the way that is really being asked here, you would have to first apply 1 of them, and push the target 15 feet. After that, you would have to push it beyond 15 feet, and the rules are explicit that the most either of these effects can push a creature away from you is 15 feet. To reverse engineer it, I push the target 15 feet with Way of the Open Hand and then 15 further feet with Battlemaster Shoving Attack. We then check the subject's distance: it is 30 feet from the monk/fighter. This is not possible, as both abilities require the subject to end within 15 feet of me.
Open Hand Technique:
It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you
Pushing attack:
On a failed save, you push the target up to 15 feet away from you
If the abilities fully stacked, the wording would be:
It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it 15 feet.
On a failed save, you push the target 15 feet.
It's like gaining advantage multiple times. The same effect is overlapping, but neither attack can push the target up to 30 feet away from you.
I also am not really sure that an unarmed strike is a "weapon attack," even though it is a "melee weapon attack," because it is not an "attack with a weapon."
An unarmed strike count is a melee weapon attack. There's no such thing as weapon attack alone, one is either melee or ranged. Sage Advice offer guidance on the difference between the two:
What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon? It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. Some attacks count as a melee or ranged weapon attack even if a weapon isn’t involved, as specified in the text of those attacks. For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon. Here’s a bit of wording minutia: we would write “melee-weapon attack” (with a hyphen) if we meant an attack with a melee weapon.
Multiple effects that occur at the same time apply separately in an order determined by the turn player. So one applies, pushing 15 feet, then the other applies, pushing 15 feet. 15+15=30 feet of forced movement. The limit is not 15.
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
Up to means it can be less than 15 feet.
away from you means every 5 feet or square as to be further away from you. (no side push)
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
Up to means it can be less than 15 feet.
away from you means every 5 feet or square as to be further away from you. (no side push)
Except that the "up to" can also be read as "no further than" - which is my point. Your interpretation may well be RAI and it's how I would be inclined to rule - but both are perfectly acceptable interpretations.
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
Up to means it can be less than 15 feet.
away from you means every 5 feet or square as to be further away from you. (no side push)
Except that the "up to" can be read as "no further than" - which is my point. Your interpretation may well be RAI and it's how I would be inclined to rule - but both are perfectly acceptable interpretations.
Yes...? Up to 15 feet. No further than 15 feet. Each effect can push them between 0 and 15 feet.
Okay - didn't make myself clear enough. It would become "No further than 15 ft away from you" for both of them. So even if you used both - 15 ft is the furthest the target could ever get.
Okay - didn't make myself clear enough. It would become "No further than 15 ft away from you" for both of them. So even if you used both - 15 ft is the furthest the target could ever get.
O~oh. Gotcha. I see how it can be read that way, but I don't think "up to" is used that way any other time.
Yea I'm with you on that. Like I said - it's not how I would rule it - but it does change the answer to the OP depending on which way you're reading it.
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
Up to means it can be less than 15 feet.
away from you means every 5 feet or square as to be further away from you. (no side push)
Except that the "up to" can be read as "no further than" - which is my point. Your interpretation may well be RAI and it's how I would be inclined to rule - but both are perfectly acceptable interpretations.
Yes...? Up to 15 feet. No further than 15 feet. Each effect can push them between 0 and 15 feet.
Up to mean as far as. Even if it indicate a maximum ammount, you could push it to a maximum of 15 feet away from you, meaining the target can be pushed 1, 2 or max 3 squares away from you.
It doesn't have to end up max 15 feet away from you, it's the maximum distance up to which you can push it away from you. So up to is for max distance pushed, not max location distance.
For comparison, if it didn't say up to, Pushing Attack would push it 15 feet away from you, no less distance possible pushed.
Replace “push” with “move to a space,” and Emmber’s interpretation would be very strong. I don’t think there’s a total 15 cap on the combined push, but I see the potential.
Before I see "unarmed strikes dont count as weapon attacks", I've heard the disagreements, and for the sake of simplicity and argument, let's just say they would apply as weapon attacks.
In such case, would the Fighter-Battle Master Maneuver - Pushing Attack, and the Monk-Open Hand Technique Push, stack? Both say the target makes a strength saving throw, and on a fail, it is pushed 15 ft. back. The monk ability occurs with a flurry of blows strike, and the Fighter ability occurs after a weapon attack, i.e. an FoB strike. So could they stack and push the target 30ft. back? and if not, is it possible to force the strength save twice?
The two effects would stack.
As for Unarmed Strike counting as weapon attacks,
Sage Advice: The game often makes exceptions to general rules, and this is an important exception: that unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks despite not being weapons.
Also confirm by the Dev on Twitter:
@JeremyECrawford Unarmed strikes have always been weapon attacks. Here's where the confusion comes in: your unarmed strike (fist, elbow, knee, butt, etc.) is not considered by the rules to be a weapon the way a longsword is a weapon. But the rules let you make unarmed weapon attacks anyway.
Edit: All of the below is true, but on closer review, I'm answering a question that wasn't asked. Sorry.No they do not stack. There's two problems here:Reason the first: a Shove is a special attack during the Attack action, and cannot be made as part of a Flurry of Blows bonus actionReason the Second: a Shove is not an Unarmed Strike, so even if Unarmed Strikes are "weapon attacks", a Shove is not.The battlemaster manouver can be used on any "weapon attack"But a Shove is not performed with any weapon, or even with an Unarmed StrikeOnce upon a time, Unarmed Strikes were explicitly weapons... that was errata'd in... 2017? into a confusing situation where they are used to make melee weapon attacks, but are not weapons, meaning they aren't attacks with a melee weapon and may not actually be weapon attacks at all?
But that question doesn't even need to be answered, because a Shove is not an Unarmed Strike.dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I’m confused. Neither of these features seems to use the shove action, they’re just providing abilities. What does a shove have to do with these?
See edit. I misunderstood the question. I also am not really sure that an unarmed strike is a "weapon attack," even though it is a "melee weapon attack," because it is not an "attack with a weapon." JC/SAC's other rulings on Divine Smite indicate that he may not really think they're weapon attacks after all. But, I want them to be weapon attacks, because the errata to make Unarmed Strikes not weapons was bad and confusing and I like to ignore it whenever possible, so it isn't a hill I'm willing to die on.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think unarmed strikes are "weapon attacks" which is a category defined as the set of all "melee weapon attacks" and "ranged weapon attacks". They are not "attacks with a weapon".
As to the core question; I'm uneasy with two pushing effects stacking (since I feel they must resolve sequentially and you aren't in the target location to be pushed from after the first one is finished) but I acknowledge that the rules don't prevent it and that actually the super push is a lot more fun and cinematic as this specialist warrior monk sends hapless enemies flying all over the place.
It depends on how you interpret the wording of "up to 15 ft away from you". Does that mean 15ft away from you is the furthest you can push them with both abilities - or that you are literally pushing them 15ft in a direction away from you? I can see it being read both ways without any issue - so it's an annoying ambiguity.
The maneuver's wording on weapon attack is fine and can absolutely apply to an unarmed strike (because it's 'weapon attack' and not 'attack with a weapon').
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Emmber is right. They do stack, but the maximum distance they can move a creature even if stacked is 15 feet. So I could push it 10 feet with Shoving Attack, then 5 further feet with Way of the Open Hand. But neither ability can cause them to move further than 15 feet from me.
To stack them fully in the way that is really being asked here, you would have to first apply 1 of them, and push the target 15 feet. After that, you would have to push it beyond 15 feet, and the rules are explicit that the most either of these effects can push a creature away from you is 15 feet. To reverse engineer it, I push the target 15 feet with Way of the Open Hand and then 15 further feet with Battlemaster Shoving Attack. We then check the subject's distance: it is 30 feet from the monk/fighter. This is not possible, as both abilities require the subject to end within 15 feet of me.
Open Hand Technique:
Pushing attack:
If the abilities fully stacked, the wording would be:
It's like gaining advantage multiple times. The same effect is overlapping, but neither attack can push the target up to 30 feet away from you.
An unarmed strike count is a melee weapon attack. There's no such thing as weapon attack alone, one is either melee or ranged. Sage Advice offer guidance on the difference between the two:
What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon? It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. Some attacks count as a melee or ranged weapon attack even if a weapon isn’t involved, as specified in the text of those attacks. For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon. Here’s a bit of wording minutia: we would write “melee-weapon attack” (with a hyphen) if we meant an attack with a melee weapon.
Multiple effects that occur at the same time apply separately in an order determined by the turn player. So one applies, pushing 15 feet, then the other applies, pushing 15 feet. 15+15=30 feet of forced movement. The limit is not 15.
Up to means it can be less than 15 feet.
away from you means every 5 feet or square as to be further away from you. (no side push)
Except that the "up to" can also be read as "no further than" - which is my point. Your interpretation may well be RAI and it's how I would be inclined to rule - but both are perfectly acceptable interpretations.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Yes...? Up to 15 feet. No further than 15 feet. Each effect can push them between 0 and 15 feet.
Okay - didn't make myself clear enough. It would become "No further than 15 ft away from you" for both of them. So even if you used both - 15 ft is the furthest the target could ever get.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
O~oh. Gotcha. I see how it can be read that way, but I don't think "up to" is used that way any other time.
Yea I'm with you on that. Like I said - it's not how I would rule it - but it does change the answer to the OP depending on which way you're reading it.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Up to mean as far as. Even if it indicate a maximum ammount, you could push it to a maximum of 15 feet away from you, meaining the target can be pushed 1, 2 or max 3 squares away from you.
It doesn't have to end up max 15 feet away from you, it's the maximum distance up to which you can push it away from you. So up to is for max distance pushed, not max location distance.
For comparison, if it didn't say up to, Pushing Attack would push it 15 feet away from you, no less distance possible pushed.
Replace “push” with “move to a space,” and Emmber’s interpretation would be very strong. I don’t think there’s a total 15 cap on the combined push, but I see the potential.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.