I was wondering how the new Tasha´s Blind Fightig Style interact with the Grick´s Stone Camoufrage
Blind Fightig Style says "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover, even if you’re blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you".
Stone Camouflage. The grick has advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide in rocky terrain.
Supouse the Grick has hidden in rocky terrain, would a character with the Blind Fightig Style see it? The Grick is not invisible and it is not behind total cover and anyway you do not need to see, you are suppouse to sense it somehow.
And that can be applied to other monsters too, anyone that uses any kind of Camouflage base on sight right? Like the Ooze False Appearance (While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock)
Or even in other similar circunstances as to discover a tiny spider familiar spy or a foe who attacks you from behind your back
I was wondering how the new Tasha´s Blind Fightig Style interact with the Grick´s Stone Camoufrage
Blind Fightig Style says "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover, even if you’re blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you".
Stone Camouflage. The grick has advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide in rocky terrain.
Supouse the Grick has hidden in rocky terrain, would a character with the Blind Fightig Style see it? The Grick is not invisible and it is not behind total cover and anyway you do not need to see, you are suppouse to sense it somehow.
And that can be applied to other monsters too, anyone that uses any kind of Camouflage base on sight right? Like the Ooze False Appearance (While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock)
Or even in other similar circunstances as to discover a tiny spider familiar spy or a foe who attacks you from behind your back
What do you think? Am I right?
If the Grick has successfully Hidden (as in, the Passive Perception of the target is not high enough to beat the Stealth roll), then no, Blind Fighting will not help because of the following segment: Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you.
Yes this applies to Invisible, but arguably, it applies to anything that has Hidden because of the >successfully hides from you segment.
so treat it as a normal Stealth roll (with advantage) for all intents and purposes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Dunno! It is a hard interpretation and that´s why I posted this threat. You are in part right! I can see your point. However, you put totally ahead the hidden component to the visual one. But the thing is… in doing so you are not considering the visual component of the hidden action at all.
You are supposed to hide when the creature or creatures you are attempting to hide from can’t see you. You could be on the opposite side of anything that provides total cover, or in a heavily obscured area (such as darkness if your foe doesn’t have darkvision), or your foe could be distracted (if the DM agrees).
You can also attempt to hide if you are in a lightly obscured area if you have the Skulker feat. With the wood elf’s “Mask of the Wild” ability you can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
But with the Blind Fightig Style you do not need to see, so we can argue that only total cover will hide you from blind sense.
Other situations, apart from hiding, appear to support this. For example, there are some other effects visuallly-bases that are not effective against Blind Fightig Style
Blur spell.
Your body becomes blurred, shifting and wavering to all who can see you. For the duration, any creature has disadvantage on attack rolls against you. An attacker is immune to this effect if it doesn't rely on sight, as with blindsight, or can see through illusions, as with truesight.
So we should say that Blind Fightig Style provides a perception that doesn´t rely on sight, so no night, darkness (magical or not), invisibility, Fog or folieage, heavy rain, etc could conceal a creature from you, unless the creature is hidden behind total cover. In that case, sure! I suppose it is kind of a sixth sense!
Here another example that could add to this debate. How would u consider a creature approaching a character’s back from the ceiling. The monster is clutching from the ceiling and the character has his/her/its “regular” vision focus ahead. The monster conceals noises, so it is trying to be stealthy, in that regard it succeeded, but enter the 10ft radius space of the character’s blindsight perception. Should the character automatically “see” it? (we suppose he/she/it is being attentive) The character can´t ear the creature, and his/her/it sight is pointing affront… Would the character notice the creature within 10ft?
TexasDevin, sorry if my writing upset you! It was mean to comment a little further on Devan Avalon interpretation. In fact, I am more on your side, I also think blindsight should overcome camouflage, because this is a characteristic mainly based on vision. I only wanted DevanAvalon to argue a little further.
I really appreaciete all your comments, also yours Plaguescarred, which seems to uneven the matter ; )
And of course, I would love any other opinions people want to share.
TexasDevin, sorry if my writing upset you! It was mean to comment a little further on Devan Avalon interpretation. In fact, I am more on your side, I also think blindsight should overcome camouflage, because this is a characteristic mainly based on vision. I only wanted DevanAvalon to argue a little further.
I really appreaciete all your comments, also yours Plaguescarred, which seems to uneven the matter ; )
And of course, I would love any other opinions people want to share.
You *want* me to argue further? Very well!
While I do agree that the Blind Fighting is a form of sixth sense that does not rely on vision (because, well, it's blindsight, you don't need your eyes to use it), my counterpoint is that since creatures who are only treated as Heavily Obscured (via invisible can still successfully hide from you regardless, and Total Cover can be argued to allow Heavy Obscurement (as you are completely out of sight when behind Total Cover and thus cannot be targeted).
A (completely non-mechanical) argument can be made that since Grick pretty much resemble stone in both color and texture (argued, not saying it's factual), by whatever means you are using blindsight ("echolocation" a la Daredevil is a common one) you still just see a pile of rocks on a successful Stealth check on behalf of the Grick.
But my arguments are coming more from the wording angle, wherein because the Grick doesn't have the False Appearance trait, it can look like stone but if it rolls its Stealth low enough (compared to our Blind Fighter), the Blind Fighter is able to detect the inconsistency that Vision might not... And then there is the point where the camouflage ability isn't an illusion or any other effect that can be ignored by a non-vision sense.
...all that said (however poorly it may be phrased so I hope you got the idea), I do see and understand your point, but for the sake of balance I still think the best option is to not give Blind Fighting any advantages on the camo part... but I also can't disagree that for Rule of Cool, it is a potential ruling.
EDIT: Oh right as I posted this, I realized I totally glossed over your Lightly Obscured argument: Hide is more than just breaking visual contact, but also negating sounds and moving in such a manner that you might not trip the Blindsight (assuming you were successful in your hiding). That's why the Invisible enemy can still successfully hide from you too.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I think it is situational. The guidance for how much cover allows someone to attempt to hide is pretty situational. For me, it comes down to the rule where you cannot hide without cover if an opponent can see you clearly. If a situation allowed the grick to use its visual camouflage to hide in a situation where an uncamouflaged creature could not hide, then I say blind fighting allows the blind fighter to "see" the opponent clearly within its range of blindsight. But if there is enough cover available that the visual aspect of the grick is only part of the equation, it might still be able to hide. And of course, once it is hidden, blind fighting would no longer apply.
I'd also agree that, RAW, the Grick can not hide from the blind fighting style ability.
Blind fighting allows you to see anything within 10' that is not behind total cover including invisible creatures unless that invisible creature has successfully taken the hide action. (Elsewhere in the rules it says that invisible creatures can always take the hide action).
Is the Grick invisible? No.
Is the Grick behind total cover? No.
Then the Grick can be seen by a character with the blind fighting style.
I get your point DevanAvalon, in fact that´s the reason our DM doesn´t allow Observat feat in the game:
Quick to notice details of your environment, you gain the following benefits: • Increase your Intelligence or Wisdom score by 1, to a maximum of 20. • If you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips. • You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.
Let´s see if she allow me Blind Fightig Style and how she rule it!
Anyway, scanning Internet I have found an old Jeremy Crawford twit related to Blindsight:
Sounds about right. You can hide from blindsight unless blindsight removes the conditions that allow you the cover to attempt to hide. Exactly how cover works with regard to blindsight should be handled on a case by case basis.
EDIT: On second thought. I do not believe this to be true. I may be treating blindsight as tremorsense in this description. I believe one calculates cover exactly the same way for blindsight as one would without blindsight.
HMM! So, upon further review (considering the Crawford tweets that have been brought up), I have changed my stance on the matter.
If the Grick has 0 cover (using the existing rules to mean 1/2 cover or greater), and it tries to stealth, then Blindsight can see it without a check.
If there is at least 1/2 cover or more, treat it as per normal check, no advantage to the Blind Fighter.
...darn it, I hate it when we can find a cohesive answer from Crawford, but at the same time... well, there is a logic to it and it makes sense within the existing framework of the rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I don't allow creature to hide behind half cover unless they have a feature specifically letting them, such as the halfling. Otherwise, creatures are only normally not seen behind full cover, provided it's opaque and not transparent. With the exception of the halfling, the Stealth rules don't rely on cover, but obscurement.
I was wondering how the new Tasha´s Blind Fightig Style interact with the Grick´s Stone Camoufrage
Blind Fightig Style says "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover, even if you’re blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you".
Stone Camouflage. The grick has advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide in rocky terrain.
Supouse the Grick has hidden in rocky terrain, would a character with the Blind Fightig Style see it? The Grick is not invisible and it is not behind total cover and anyway you do not need to see, you are suppouse to sense it somehow.
And that can be applied to other monsters too, anyone that uses any kind of Camouflage base on sight right? Like the Ooze False Appearance (While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock)
Or even in other similar circunstances as to discover a tiny spider familiar spy or a foe who attacks you from behind your back
What do you think? Am I right?
As a general rule, it's only possible to Hide with something to Hide behind, so if something bypasses what you wanted to Hide behind, you're no longer Hidden.
For example, if you use the Skulker feat to hide in dim light, something with Darkvision will just see you.
Stone Camouflage has no particular interaction here at all - it only provides advantage. Rolling a higher or lower number on the check doesn't have any bearing on your question. The answer to your question is that Blind Fighting will ignore non-total cover and will be hard stopped by total cover, meaning you can hide from Blind Fighting behind a clear glass window but you can't hide from it behind a door with an open peephole (assuming the peephole is a literal hole). If the Grick is behind total cover, it's hidden from Blind Fighting. If it isn't, it's not. What it rolled on the Stealth check doesn't matter.
Stone Camouflage has no particular interaction here at all - it only provides advantage. Rolling a higher or lower number on the check doesn't have any bearing on your question. The answer to your question is that Blind Fighting will ignore non-total cover and will be hard stopped by total cover, meaning you can hide from Blind Fighting behind a clear glass window but you can't hide from it behind a door with an open peephole (assuming the peephole is a literal hole). If the Grick is behind total cover, it's hidden from Blind Fighting. If it isn't, it's not. What it rolled on the Stealth check doesn't matter.
You can only hide behind transparent total cover from a creature with blindsight that is blinded, otherwise it can still see you.
Hello there
I was wondering how the new Tasha´s Blind Fightig Style interact with the Grick´s Stone Camoufrage
Blind Fightig Style says "You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover, even if you’re blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you".
Stone Camouflage. The grick has advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks made to hide in rocky terrain.
Supouse the Grick has hidden in rocky terrain, would a character with the Blind Fightig Style see it? The Grick is not invisible and it is not behind total cover and anyway you do not need to see, you are suppouse to sense it somehow.
And that can be applied to other monsters too, anyone that uses any kind of Camouflage base on sight right? Like the Ooze False Appearance (While the ooze remains motionless, it is indistinguishable from an oily pool or wet rock)
Or even in other similar circunstances as to discover a tiny spider familiar spy or a foe who attacks you from behind your back
What do you think? Am I right?
The wormlike grick waits unseen, blending in with the rock of the caves and caverns it haunts.
This feature appears to be visually-based. I would let blind fighting style circumvent the feature.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
If the Grick has successfully Hidden (as in, the Passive Perception of the target is not high enough to beat the Stealth roll), then no, Blind Fighting will not help because of the following segment: Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you.
Yes this applies to Invisible, but arguably, it applies to anything that has Hidden because of the >successfully hides from you segment.
so treat it as a normal Stealth roll (with advantage) for all intents and purposes.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Dunno! It is a hard interpretation and that´s why I posted this threat. You are in part right! I can see your point. However, you put totally ahead the hidden component to the visual one. But the thing is… in doing so you are not considering the visual component of the hidden action at all.
You are supposed to hide when the creature or creatures you are attempting to hide from can’t see you. You could be on the opposite side of anything that provides total cover, or in a heavily obscured area (such as darkness if your foe doesn’t have darkvision), or your foe could be distracted (if the DM agrees).
You can also attempt to hide if you are in a lightly obscured area if you have the Skulker feat. With the wood elf’s “Mask of the Wild” ability you can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
But with the Blind Fightig Style you do not need to see, so we can argue that only total cover will hide you from blind sense.
Other situations, apart from hiding, appear to support this. For example, there are some other effects visuallly-bases that are not effective against Blind Fightig Style
Blur spell.
Your body becomes blurred, shifting and wavering to all who can see you. For the duration, any creature has disadvantage on attack rolls against you. An attacker is immune to this effect if it doesn't rely on sight, as with blindsight, or can see through illusions, as with truesight.
So we should say that Blind Fightig Style provides a perception that doesn´t rely on sight, so no night, darkness (magical or not), invisibility, Fog or folieage, heavy rain, etc could conceal a creature from you, unless the creature is hidden behind total cover. In that case, sure! I suppose it is kind of a sixth sense!
Here another example that could add to this debate. How would u consider a creature approaching a character’s back from the ceiling. The monster is clutching from the ceiling and the character has his/her/its “regular” vision focus ahead. The monster conceals noises, so it is trying to be stealthy, in that regard it succeeded, but enter the 10ft radius space of the character’s blindsight perception. Should the character automatically “see” it? (we suppose he/she/it is being attentive) The character can´t ear the creature, and his/her/it sight is pointing affront… Would the character notice the creature within 10ft?
Well I can assure you all of my advice was meant politely.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'd also rule that the grick fails to hide from Blind Fighting Style.
But of course!
TexasDevin, sorry if my writing upset you! It was mean to comment a little further on Devan Avalon interpretation. In fact, I am more on your side, I also think blindsight should overcome camouflage, because this is a characteristic mainly based on vision. I only wanted DevanAvalon to argue a little further.
I really appreaciete all your comments, also yours Plaguescarred, which seems to uneven the matter ; )
And of course, I would love any other opinions people want to share.
You *want* me to argue further? Very well!
While I do agree that the Blind Fighting is a form of sixth sense that does not rely on vision (because, well, it's blindsight, you don't need your eyes to use it), my counterpoint is that since creatures who are only treated as Heavily Obscured (via invisible can still successfully hide from you regardless, and Total Cover can be argued to allow Heavy Obscurement (as you are completely out of sight when behind Total Cover and thus cannot be targeted).
A (completely non-mechanical) argument can be made that since Grick pretty much resemble stone in both color and texture (argued, not saying it's factual), by whatever means you are using blindsight ("echolocation" a la Daredevil is a common one) you still just see a pile of rocks on a successful Stealth check on behalf of the Grick.
But my arguments are coming more from the wording angle, wherein because the Grick doesn't have the False Appearance trait, it can look like stone but if it rolls its Stealth low enough (compared to our Blind Fighter), the Blind Fighter is able to detect the inconsistency that Vision might not... And then there is the point where the camouflage ability isn't an illusion or any other effect that can be ignored by a non-vision sense.
...all that said (however poorly it may be phrased so I hope you got the idea), I do see and understand your point, but for the sake of balance I still think the best option is to not give Blind Fighting any advantages on the camo part... but I also can't disagree that for Rule of Cool, it is a potential ruling.
EDIT: Oh right as I posted this, I realized I totally glossed over your Lightly Obscured argument: Hide is more than just breaking visual contact, but also negating sounds and moving in such a manner that you might not trip the Blindsight (assuming you were successful in your hiding). That's why the Invisible enemy can still successfully hide from you too.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I think it is situational. The guidance for how much cover allows someone to attempt to hide is pretty situational. For me, it comes down to the rule where you cannot hide without cover if an opponent can see you clearly. If a situation allowed the grick to use its visual camouflage to hide in a situation where an uncamouflaged creature could not hide, then I say blind fighting allows the blind fighter to "see" the opponent clearly within its range of blindsight. But if there is enough cover available that the visual aspect of the grick is only part of the equation, it might still be able to hide. And of course, once it is hidden, blind fighting would no longer apply.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'd also agree that, RAW, the Grick can not hide from the blind fighting style ability.
Blind fighting allows you to see anything within 10' that is not behind total cover including invisible creatures unless that invisible creature has successfully taken the hide action. (Elsewhere in the rules it says that invisible creatures can always take the hide action).
Is the Grick invisible? No.
Is the Grick behind total cover? No.
Then the Grick can be seen by a character with the blind fighting style.
Thanks guys for your time and your opinions!
I get your point DevanAvalon, in fact that´s the reason our DM doesn´t allow Observat feat in the game:
Quick to notice details of your environment, you gain the following benefits:
• Increase your Intelligence or Wisdom score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• If you can see a creature’s mouth while it is speaking a language you understand, you can interpret what it’s saying by reading its lips.
• You have a +5 bonus to your passive Wisdom (Perception) and passive Intelligence (Investigation) scores.
Let´s see if she allow me Blind Fightig Style and how she rule it!
Anyway, scanning Internet I have found an old Jeremy Crawford twit related to Blindsight:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/does-blindsight-perceive-physical-phenomenon-like-fog-and-smoke/
Here's some more if you 're interested; https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/553730387751337984?lang=en
Here's another one https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/553724851639177216
Sounds about right.
You can hide from blindsight unless blindsight removes the conditions that allow you the cover to attempt to hide. Exactly how cover works with regard to blindsight should be handled on a case by case basis.EDIT: On second thought. I do not believe this to be true. I may be treating blindsight as tremorsense in this description. I believe one calculates cover exactly the same way for blindsight as one would without blindsight.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
HMM! So, upon further review (considering the Crawford tweets that have been brought up), I have changed my stance on the matter.
If the Grick has 0 cover (using the existing rules to mean 1/2 cover or greater), and it tries to stealth, then Blindsight can see it without a check.
If there is at least 1/2 cover or more, treat it as per normal check, no advantage to the Blind Fighter.
...darn it, I hate it when we can find a cohesive answer from Crawford, but at the same time... well, there is a logic to it and it makes sense within the existing framework of the rules.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I don't allow creature to hide behind half cover unless they have a feature specifically letting them, such as the halfling. Otherwise, creatures are only normally not seen behind full cover, provided it's opaque and not transparent. With the exception of the halfling, the Stealth rules don't rely on cover, but obscurement.
The rules reinforce that this is strictly your prerogative as DM.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As a general rule, it's only possible to Hide with something to Hide behind, so if something bypasses what you wanted to Hide behind, you're no longer Hidden.
For example, if you use the Skulker feat to hide in dim light, something with Darkvision will just see you.
Stone Camouflage has no particular interaction here at all - it only provides advantage. Rolling a higher or lower number on the check doesn't have any bearing on your question. The answer to your question is that Blind Fighting will ignore non-total cover and will be hard stopped by total cover, meaning you can hide from Blind Fighting behind a clear glass window but you can't hide from it behind a door with an open peephole (assuming the peephole is a literal hole). If the Grick is behind total cover, it's hidden from Blind Fighting. If it isn't, it's not. What it rolled on the Stealth check doesn't matter.
You can only hide behind transparent total cover from a creature with blindsight that is blinded, otherwise it can still see you.
It that case, we can agree that Grick would be hiddne behind transparent total cover from blindsight and camouflaged from regular vision ; )