I have a play who is a Warlock and is using Voice of the chain master. Recently in my game, my player and I had a conflict about the wording and use of this mechanic. We have a good understanding any rules I make on the spot, are cannon for the purpose of the session, but you may discuss and make your argument with why I was wrong after the session. I've got 7 players and stopping to break down word for word mechanics that really should be worded better isn't something we can afford in our short 2 hour ish session.
So, the scenario that played out was my players were some distance apart and the Warlocks familiar was with another player that was a roughly 500 feet apart. The player with the familiar said, "I tell ony that the enemies are coming, get ready" However at that point, I ruled that, the communication has to be initiated via the warlock player, as that's roughly how I've always played familiars, the spell caster in control of familiar has to start talking to the familiar telepathically and the creature can respond.
The player though not happy with my call, and maybe rightfully, played the session through. His argument is that as part of the Find Familiar spell is that he can communicate telepathically with his familiar at 100 feet and Voice of the chain master as long as they exist on the same plane should be allowed to talk to each other no matter who was to start the communication. However, I might be a little two rules laywer here and be getting stuck up on the wording: Find Familiar states:
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically.
And voice of the chain master states
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar, perceive through its senses, and speak through it in your own voice as long as you are on the same plane of existence.
I've taken this as, you as the player can communicate with your familiar, and though it doesn't say your familiar can communicate with you, I've just always played that the familiar could talk back.
Now I really don't mind adjusting my mindset here because I might be being too harsh with that simple word "YOU", Does anyone have clarification on how familiar communication works? Can the familiar talk back? Does the player have to initiate communication?
I'd also like to state, ignoring my potentially bad DM'ing, the Familiar is a Pseudodragon, which can understands Common and Draconic but can't speak them
"Communicate with" is another way of saying "converse with" and implies two-way communication. This would mean you can speak to your familiar and your familiar can speak to you.
Simply put, when within 100ft of each other you can speak to your familiar and it can speak to you; when using the Voice of the Chain feature it is the same, except the range is "as long as you are on the same plane of existence".
So, the spell Grant's the player the ability to communicate telepathically with the Familiar, not with anyone/thing else. This is the "you can communicate...." part. Same thing applies to the invocation allowing these abilities, as they weren't allowed before. They aren't constraints. (Assuming that telepathy is something that the Warlock couldn't do with anyone/thing else except through the spell/invocation.)
The distance that the communication can happen is pretty clear per Voice of the Chain.
These are good faith questions, as this part gets a little DM ruling dependant:
If the statblock that you're using for the Familiar has telepathy listed as a language, why can't the Familiar initiate communication with telepathy?
If they were to speak out loud, would that be different? Would the Familiar be able to initiate communication vocally?
If a creature has a language listed, I would suggest they have the ability to initiate communication. Even if they cannot speak, they might attempt communicating through other means. (What is it Lassie? Timmy fell down the well?!) I don't see a reason, RAW that the Familar cannot start a conversation. With or without telepathy.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'd agree with your player. "Communicate with" as Llethander says, implies two-way conversation. And I can't think of a reason why the familiar would not be able to initiate it. I take the "you" to mean the familiar can't communicate telepathically with anyone else.
So, the spell Grant's the player the ability to communicate telepathically with the Familiar, not with anyone/thing else. This is the "you can communicate...." part. Same thing applies to the invocation allowing these abilities, as they weren't allowed before. They aren't constraints. (Assuming that telepathy is something that the Warlock couldn't do with anyone/thing else except through the spell/invocation.)
The distance that the communication can happen is pretty clear per Voice of the Chain.
These are good faith questions, as this part gets a little DM ruling dependant:
If the statblock that you're using for the Familiar has telepathy listed as a language, why can't the Familiar initiate communication with telepathy?
If they were to speak out loud, would that be different? Would the Familiar be able to initiate communication vocally?
If a creature has a language listed, I would suggest they have the ability to initiate communication. Even if they cannot speak, they might attempt communicating through other means. (What is it Lassie? Timmy fell down the well?!) I don't see a reason, RAW that the Familar cannot start a conversation. With or without telepathy.
I will never say I am perfect at DMing and I have wonderful players that will take my good and bad calls however we play during the session and talk to me Afterwords.
To answer the first question, the answer isn't the best, its generally how I have always DM'd Find Familiar, the person who owns the familiar must initiate the conversation. Does that make it right, nope? I am welling to learn and grow and just wanted feedback.
In this specific example, some of my justification is the choice in familiar, the player chose a pseudodragon, which can not speak but can only understand common and draconic
Understands Common and Draconic but can't speak them
I'd agree with your player. "Communicate with" as Llethander says, implies two-way conversation. And I can't think of a reason why the familiar would not be able to initiate it. I take the "you" to mean the familiar can't communicate telepathically with anyone else.
As I thought about it more, I did tend to agree with the player, however, looking into the Familiar the player has, it's a Pseudodragon, which understands common and draconic, but can't speak to them. How does this impact the ability for the creature to communicate with the warlock?
Again, I posed good faith questions, as I had assumed the Familar could speak, but wanted to allow you to clarify.
If the Familiar cannot speak, that limits the communication to ideas, feelings, emotions and abstractions that convey a thought.
Per the Familiar variant statblock, the Pseudodragon can initiate communication with limited telepathy.
That said, rule as you will at your table to keep your game fun.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was trying to clarify. As I am not really familiar with Familiars less than a handful of players have ever used them in my campaigns.
I enjoy your perspective because it helps be better understand.
Is simply saying, communicate telepathically mean that languages are ignored completely? Cause that really should be stated. Sometimes I like the vagueness of descriptions, and others they really annoy me. lol
I'd agree with your player. "Communicate with" as Llethander says, implies two-way conversation. And I can't think of a reason why the familiar would not be able to initiate it. I take the "you" to mean the familiar can't communicate telepathically with anyone else.
As I thought about it more, I did tend to agree with the player, however, looking into the Familiar the player has, it's a Pseudodragon, which understands common and draconic, but can't speak to them. How does this impact the ability for the creature to communicate with the warlock?
I’m thinking it can’t speak them because it’s mouth doesn’t work that way. But it can think at the warlock just fine.
Voice of the Chain Master allows the warlock to also speak through their familiar. So besides communicating with their familiar telepathically they can verbally communicate with anyone around their familiar.
And because they can also hear through their familiar, those around the familiar can communicate with the warlock.
While the Warlock is perceiving through the Familiar's senses, absolutely correct.
As I thought about it more, I did tend to agree with the player, however, looking into the Familiar the player has, it's a Pseudodragon, which understands common and draconic, but can't speak to them. How does this impact the ability for the creature to communicate with the warlock?
Pact of the Chain allows the Warlock to speak through the Familiar "even if the familiar is not normally capable of speech".
With regards to the Pseudodragon, Telepathy is a form of communication but is not speech, as "speech" implies verbalizing a language. Bear in mind, that the Pseudodragon states it "understands Common and Draconic but cannot speak them" but also has the Limited Telepathy feature, allowing it to still communicate. The Telepathy from Find Familiar is Telepathy, not Limited Telepathy, but is limited to communication with the Warlock only.
It is also important to note: The Chain Warlock expanded Familiar options are still spirits in the form of whichever option is selected. They use the real creature's stat blocks but are not actually those creatures. Because of this, the Familiar still functions mechanically as the Find Familiar spell dictates unless another rule says otherwise. For example, "Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one Attack of its own with its Reaction" provides a way for the Familiar to attack, overruling the Find Familiar rule that states a familiar cannot attack.
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
This is just a buff of find familiar, extending the range and allowing you to speak through your familiar
While your familiar is within 100 feet of youon the same place of existence as you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has, and you can speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.
It still doesn't clarify what "communicate with it telepathically" means, but simply using the word "communicate" doesn't in any way imply that the conversation goes both ways. Just because you can communicate with it doesn't mean it can communicate with you. Other subclass features spell out more explicitly the nature of its specific form of telepathic communication -- for instance, Aberrant Mind sorcerer's Telepathic Speech -- so I don't think you can make assumptions about what Voice of the Chain Master allows
1st-level Aberrant Mind feature
You can form a telepathic connection between your mind and the mind of another. As a bonus action, choose one creature you can see within 30 feet of you. You and the chosen creature can speak telepathically with each other while the two of you are within a number of miles of each other equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1 mile). To understand each other, you each must speak mentally in a language the other knows.
In the case of the pseudodragon, though, there's also the consideration that its statblock does spell out what kind of telepathic communication it's capable of
Limited Telepathy. The pseudodragon can magically communicate simple ideas, emotions, and images telepathically with any creature within 100 feet of it that can understand a language.
Adding all that up, and I think the pseudodragon would be able to initiate telepathic communication with its warlock, but only to communicate "simple ideas, emotions, and images", not give a detailed report on what it was seeing on a scouting run. "Enemies coming, get ready" would seem to fit the bill, although it might be more like a quick glimpse of enemies advancing accompanied by a sense of danger than actual words
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Adding all that up, and I think the pseudodragon would be able to initiate telepathic communication with its warlock, but only to communicate "simple ideas, emotions, and images", not give a detailed report on what it was seeing on a scouting run. "Enemies coming, get ready" would seem to fit the bill, although it might be more like a quick glimpse of enemies advancing accompanied by a sense of danger than actual words
This is exactly what my player and I agreed to.
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So, the scenario that played out was my players were some distance apart and the Warlocks familiar was with another player that was a roughly 500 feet apart. The player with the familiar said, "I tell ony that the enemies are coming, get ready" However at that point, I ruled that, the communication has to be initiated via the warlock player, as that's roughly how I've always played familiars, the spell caster in control of familiar has to start talking to the familiar telepathically and the creature can respond.
"Communicate with" is another way of saying "converse with" and implies two-way communication. This would mean you can speak to your familiar and your familiar can speak to you.
Simply put, when within 100ft of each other you can speak to your familiar and it can speak to you; when using the Voice of the Chain feature it is the same, except the range is "as long as you are on the same plane of existence".
So, the spell Grant's the player the ability to communicate telepathically with the Familiar, not with anyone/thing else. This is the "you can communicate...." part. Same thing applies to the invocation allowing these abilities, as they weren't allowed before. They aren't constraints. (Assuming that telepathy is something that the Warlock couldn't do with anyone/thing else except through the spell/invocation.)
The distance that the communication can happen is pretty clear per Voice of the Chain.
These are good faith questions, as this part gets a little DM ruling dependant:
If the statblock that you're using for the Familiar has telepathy listed as a language, why can't the Familiar initiate communication with telepathy?
If they were to speak out loud, would that be different? Would the Familiar be able to initiate communication vocally?
If a creature has a language listed, I would suggest they have the ability to initiate communication. Even if they cannot speak, they might attempt communicating through other means. (What is it Lassie? Timmy fell down the well?!) I don't see a reason, RAW that the Familar cannot start a conversation. With or without telepathy.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I'd agree with your player. "Communicate with" as Llethander says, implies two-way conversation. And I can't think of a reason why the familiar would not be able to initiate it. I take the "you" to mean the familiar can't communicate telepathically with anyone else.
I will never say I am perfect at DMing and I have wonderful players that will take my good and bad calls however we play during the session and talk to me Afterwords.
To answer the first question, the answer isn't the best, its generally how I have always DM'd Find Familiar, the person who owns the familiar must initiate the conversation. Does that make it right, nope? I am welling to learn and grow and just wanted feedback.
In this specific example, some of my justification is the choice in familiar, the player chose a pseudodragon, which can not speak but can only understand common and draconic
As I thought about it more, I did tend to agree with the player, however, looking into the Familiar the player has, it's a Pseudodragon, which understands common and draconic, but can't speak to them. How does this impact the ability for the creature to communicate with the warlock?
Again, I posed good faith questions, as I had assumed the Familar could speak, but wanted to allow you to clarify.
If the Familiar cannot speak, that limits the communication to ideas, feelings, emotions and abstractions that convey a thought.
Per the Familiar variant statblock, the Pseudodragon can initiate communication with limited telepathy.
That said, rule as you will at your table to keep your game fun.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was trying to clarify. As I am not really familiar with Familiars less than a handful of players have ever used them in my campaigns.
I enjoy your perspective because it helps be better understand.
Is simply saying, communicate telepathically mean that languages are ignored completely? Cause that really should be stated. Sometimes I like the vagueness of descriptions, and others they really annoy me. lol
I’m thinking it can’t speak them because it’s mouth doesn’t work that way. But it can think at the warlock just fine.
While the Warlock is perceiving through the Familiar's senses, absolutely correct.
Pact of the Chain allows the Warlock to speak through the Familiar "even if the familiar is not normally capable of speech".
With regards to the Pseudodragon, Telepathy is a form of communication but is not speech, as "speech" implies verbalizing a language. Bear in mind, that the Pseudodragon states it "understands Common and Draconic but cannot speak them" but also has the Limited Telepathy feature, allowing it to still communicate. The Telepathy from Find Familiar is Telepathy, not Limited Telepathy, but is limited to communication with the Warlock only.
It is also important to note: The Chain Warlock expanded Familiar options are still spirits in the form of whichever option is selected. They use the real creature's stat blocks but are not actually those creatures. Because of this, the Familiar still functions mechanically as the Find Familiar spell dictates unless another rule says otherwise. For example, "Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one Attack of its own with its Reaction" provides a way for the Familiar to attack, overruling the Find Familiar rule that states a familiar cannot attack.
So, let's wind this back.
Voice of the Chain Master says
This is just a buff of find familiar, extending the range and allowing you to speak through your familiar
It still doesn't clarify what "communicate with it telepathically" means, but simply using the word "communicate" doesn't in any way imply that the conversation goes both ways. Just because you can communicate with it doesn't mean it can communicate with you. Other subclass features spell out more explicitly the nature of its specific form of telepathic communication -- for instance, Aberrant Mind sorcerer's Telepathic Speech -- so I don't think you can make assumptions about what Voice of the Chain Master allows
In the case of the pseudodragon, though, there's also the consideration that its statblock does spell out what kind of telepathic communication it's capable of
Adding all that up, and I think the pseudodragon would be able to initiate telepathic communication with its warlock, but only to communicate "simple ideas, emotions, and images", not give a detailed report on what it was seeing on a scouting run. "Enemies coming, get ready" would seem to fit the bill, although it might be more like a quick glimpse of enemies advancing accompanied by a sense of danger than actual words
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is exactly what my player and I agreed to.