Grim Harvest, the Necromancer's 2nd level ability, heals the necromancer for twice, or three times, the "spell's level" when the necromancer kills creatures with a spell (twice, unless the spell is a Necromancy spell, in which case it's three times).
I've got two questions:
1) which one counts, the level of the spell, or the level of the slot used to cast it? I'm thinking it's the level of the spell, so a Chromatic Orb cast using a level 3 slot would still only heal for 2 hps. I haven't been able to find a Jeremy Crawford tweet clearing that up, and haven't found anything relevant in Sage Advice, so I thought I'd check here.
2) the description says "when you kill..." (emphasis mine). Most abilities of this type say "when you reduce a creature to 0 hitpoints". What happens when the creature has an ability that makes it regain some hitpoints when it's reduced to 0, like Zombies? (I know Grim Harvest doesn't work on Zombies.) I'm guessing it won't trigger, since you didn't kill the creature. But what about Trolls, which regain hitpoints, even from 0, when they start a turn, unless that ability is suppressed? What if a necromancer drops a Troll to 0 hitpoints? Does the necromancer get healed by Grim Harvest right then and there, even if on the Troll's turn, it regenerates and isn't dead? The Troll's description says it only dies if it starts it turn with 0 hitpoints and the ability suppressed. Does the necromancer get healed at the start of the Troll's turn, when it effectively dies? Or does he only get healed if you know the Troll will die from that spell (that is, if, for example, the necromancer reduced it to 0 hitpoints with a fire or acid spell, or reduced it to 0 hitpoints when it had received fire or acid damage earlier in the round)? Or does he get healed whenever it becomes clear the Troll will die, but then only if the necromancer's spell reduced it to 0 hitpoints (e.g. Magic Missile drops the Troll, and later on in the round, but before the Troll's turn, someone dumps a vial of acid on it)? Or can the necromancer never get healed from Grim Harvest off Trolls, since they're not killed by spells, but by "starting the round with 0 hitpoints and the regeneration ability suppressed"? Moreover, "dying" is not the same as being reduced to 0 hitpoints. Technically speaking, when you're reduced to 0 hitpoints, you still need to fail three death saving throws in order to properly die. Would Grim Harvest only work if the necromancer's spell forces the third failed death saving throw? Although, clearly, there are exceptions, since Trolls apparently don't do death saving throws... they die when they start a turn at 0 hitpoints and with regeneration suppressed.
When you cast a spell using a spell slot of a higher level, the spell assumes that higher level (Player's Handbook, page 201, or here). Effectively, the spell becomes the level of the slot you use for it, so if you use a 6th level slot for Vampiric Touch, you get 18 hit points back whenever you kill someone with it (well, once per turn).
The detail about dropping to 0 hit points or dying is one left to the DM. Most creatures die when they reach 0 hit points, but important enemies (and those that can regenerate from it, like the Troll you mentioned) may not. The necromancer's ability mentions "kills" to make that distinction (and to prevent people from dropping someone to 0 hit points with a vampiric touch, giving them a Goodberry or something, and repeating until the Necromancer is fully healed. :p ). If the creature actually dies by your spell, you get the hit points.
Yes, that means you can't really get hit points from a Troll unless you use a Power Word Kill on it or something, since it will only die on the start of its turn if something prevents its regeneration (such as fire damage or Chill Touch), which means it won't be your spell killing it.
Regarding the second point... so the necromancer would get healed at the start of the Troll's next turn, if its regeneration has been suppressed, and not when the necromancer hit and reduced the Troll's hitpoints to 0? Or when an important enemy fails their third death saving throw? In those cases, which "counts" for Grim Harvest: whatever reduced the enemy to 0 hitpoints, or whatever forced the enemy to throw his third failed saving throw? (And I realize "the DM decides" might be the answer to any or all of this, but I'm mostly looking for official answers, and barring that, opinions.)
None of those, unfortunately. Note that Grim Harvest says "...when you kill one or more creatures with a spell...". It doesn't help when the creature dies after your spell deals damage. So, in the case of the Troll, which doesn't die when it drops to 0 hit points, but rather dies on its turn if certain conditions are met, your spell doesn't kill it.
...unless the DM is generous. I'd personally allow that.
The same is true about death saving throws. If a creature drops unconscious, your spell didn't kill it (your spell can still kill it if it causes death by death saving throw failure, as damage while dying does). But what I said about creatures dying on 0 hit points isn't arbitrary - the choice is on the DM, but it's official. The relevant text is in the paragraph "Monsters and Death", Player's Handbook page 198 or here.
Under that rule, you should be able to get hit points out of most creatures that your own spells drop to 0 hit points. And spells that cause instant death (like the aforementioned Power Word Kill) work regardless of damage.
I would definitely encourage challenging any DM ruling that a troll was not "killed" by your spell because it didn't die until the start of its turn and not regenerating - that's basically trying to draw a line between cause and effect so fine as to say someone did not kill someone else if they stabbed them, but they bled to death rather than immediately dying. It's just completely a "jerk DM" move to try and treat the effect of your spell (that being the troll's HP being 0 when its turn started) as a separate cause with an affect of its own that had nothing to do with your casting a spell.
I would definitely encourage challenging any DM ruling that a troll was not "killed" by your spell because it didn't die until the start of its turn and not regenerating - that's basically trying to draw a line between cause and effect so fine as to say someone did not kill someone else if they stabbed them, but they bled to death rather than immediately dying. It's just completely a "jerk DM" move to try and treat the effect of your spell (that being the troll's HP being 0 when its turn started) as a separate cause with an affect of its own that had nothing to do with your casting a spell.
While I agree with you, I was really looking for more "official" (as in RAW or Jeremy Crawford rulings) answers. Which is not to say I don't appreciate your input greatly (I did also ask for opinions!), but Onyx's point still stands: if monsters die when they reach 0hps (which I had forgotten was an actual rule, I was misremembering it as more of a "for ease of play, you might treat monsters as dead when they reach 0hps"-type shortcut), then a Troll is an exception to that (since it explicitly states it doesn't die until the start of its next turn, etc.), and therefore the spell didn't kill it. What killed it was being at 0hps and not being able to regenerate.
On the other hand, regardless of the "obviousness" of it being killed by your spell reducing it to 0hps, mechanically, if your spell caused it to be "at 0hps and with regeneration suppressed" (either because the Troll was at 0hp and your spell suppressed regeneration, or because it was above 0hp but with regeneration suppressed due to another source of fire/acid damage, or because your spell reduced the troll to 0hp with fire/acid damage, or because it reduced it to 0hp and otherwise suppressed regeneration (Chill Touch?)), then it could be argued that your spell, in fact, caused it to die, hence killed it. It didn't die right when your spell hit it, but it did die as a direct result of it. (Ok, so Chill Touch was a bad example, since it being a cantrip it wouldn't trigger Grim Harvest anyway, but still.)
Like an example If I cast a level 3 Fireball on 2 goblins
Would I get 6 hit points back or 12 because it was 2 of them?
"Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell’s level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy."
You can only gain HP once per turn, and the health is decided by the level of the spell not the number of enemies killed. So you could gain 6 hit points back, not 12.
Would the smite spells and/or divine smite trigger grim harvest? For a Paladin(Oathbreaker)/Cleric(Death)/Wizard(Necromancy) multiclass.
Would Eldritch smite be the same?
No to Divine/Eldritch Smite because:
Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.
Divine/Eldritch Smite is not a spell but rather an ability that uses a spell slot. I would however allow the healing if you used a bonus action smite spell eg. Searing Smite, Wrathful Smite etc.
Would the smite spells and/or divine smite trigger grim harvest? For a Paladin(Oathbreaker)/Cleric(Death)/Wizard(Necromancy) multiclass.
Would Eldritch smite be the same?
No to Divine/Eldritch Smite because:
Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.
Divine/Eldritch Smite is not a spell but rather an ability that uses a spell slot. I would however allow the healing if you used a bonus action smite spell eg. Searing Smite, Wrathful Smite etc.
okay I'll change my spells and see if my DM feels the same, thank you
Let's assume: necromancer turn, partymember turn and troll turn.
If you "kill" the troll (reducing to 0 hit points) and his regeneration isn't hindered, you didn't kill it and therefore won't be healed. But what if your mate uses fire or acid or something like chill touch? Suddenly it stays dead and you did kill it o.O
I mean your teammate isn't the killer, he's the prevention.
One could argue that the magic still lingers until the troll really dies and then the heal effect takes place. But it just feels frightening if you needed the heal and maybe a second enemy (possibly 2nd troll) kills you before you could be healed by my solution. Or it still lingers and if your are not outright dead you get then healed.
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Grim Harvest, the Necromancer's 2nd level ability, heals the necromancer for twice, or three times, the "spell's level" when the necromancer kills creatures with a spell (twice, unless the spell is a Necromancy spell, in which case it's three times).
I've got two questions:
1) which one counts, the level of the spell, or the level of the slot used to cast it? I'm thinking it's the level of the spell, so a Chromatic Orb cast using a level 3 slot would still only heal for 2 hps. I haven't been able to find a Jeremy Crawford tweet clearing that up, and haven't found anything relevant in Sage Advice, so I thought I'd check here.
2) the description says "when you kill..." (emphasis mine). Most abilities of this type say "when you reduce a creature to 0 hitpoints". What happens when the creature has an ability that makes it regain some hitpoints when it's reduced to 0, like Zombies? (I know Grim Harvest doesn't work on Zombies.) I'm guessing it won't trigger, since you didn't kill the creature. But what about Trolls, which regain hitpoints, even from 0, when they start a turn, unless that ability is suppressed? What if a necromancer drops a Troll to 0 hitpoints? Does the necromancer get healed by Grim Harvest right then and there, even if on the Troll's turn, it regenerates and isn't dead? The Troll's description says it only dies if it starts it turn with 0 hitpoints and the ability suppressed. Does the necromancer get healed at the start of the Troll's turn, when it effectively dies? Or does he only get healed if you know the Troll will die from that spell (that is, if, for example, the necromancer reduced it to 0 hitpoints with a fire or acid spell, or reduced it to 0 hitpoints when it had received fire or acid damage earlier in the round)? Or does he get healed whenever it becomes clear the Troll will die, but then only if the necromancer's spell reduced it to 0 hitpoints (e.g. Magic Missile drops the Troll, and later on in the round, but before the Troll's turn, someone dumps a vial of acid on it)? Or can the necromancer never get healed from Grim Harvest off Trolls, since they're not killed by spells, but by "starting the round with 0 hitpoints and the regeneration ability suppressed"? Moreover, "dying" is not the same as being reduced to 0 hitpoints. Technically speaking, when you're reduced to 0 hitpoints, you still need to fail three death saving throws in order to properly die. Would Grim Harvest only work if the necromancer's spell forces the third failed death saving throw? Although, clearly, there are exceptions, since Trolls apparently don't do death saving throws... they die when they start a turn at 0 hitpoints and with regeneration suppressed.
When you cast a spell using a spell slot of a higher level, the spell assumes that higher level (Player's Handbook, page 201, or here). Effectively, the spell becomes the level of the slot you use for it, so if you use a 6th level slot for Vampiric Touch, you get 18 hit points back whenever you kill someone with it (well, once per turn).
The detail about dropping to 0 hit points or dying is one left to the DM. Most creatures die when they reach 0 hit points, but important enemies (and those that can regenerate from it, like the Troll you mentioned) may not. The necromancer's ability mentions "kills" to make that distinction (and to prevent people from dropping someone to 0 hit points with a vampiric touch, giving them a Goodberry or something, and repeating until the Necromancer is fully healed. :p ). If the creature actually dies by your spell, you get the hit points.
Yes, that means you can't really get hit points from a Troll unless you use a Power Word Kill on it or something, since it will only die on the start of its turn if something prevents its regeneration (such as fire damage or Chill Touch), which means it won't be your spell killing it.
1 is easy. There's a line buried somewhere in chapter 10 of the PHB that says that a spell's level is equal to that of the slot used to cast it.
2 isn't so easy. My best guess is that it's left up to the DM's common sense.
Edit: I should know better than to get distracted in the middle of writing a post.
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Thanks for that bit in the PHB, I'd missed that!
Regarding the second point... so the necromancer would get healed at the start of the Troll's next turn, if its regeneration has been suppressed, and not when the necromancer hit and reduced the Troll's hitpoints to 0? Or when an important enemy fails their third death saving throw? In those cases, which "counts" for Grim Harvest: whatever reduced the enemy to 0 hitpoints, or whatever forced the enemy to throw his third failed saving throw? (And I realize "the DM decides" might be the answer to any or all of this, but I'm mostly looking for official answers, and barring that, opinions.)
None of those, unfortunately. Note that Grim Harvest says "...when you kill one or more creatures with a spell...". It doesn't help when the creature dies after your spell deals damage. So, in the case of the Troll, which doesn't die when it drops to 0 hit points, but rather dies on its turn if certain conditions are met, your spell doesn't kill it.
...unless the DM is generous. I'd personally allow that.
The same is true about death saving throws. If a creature drops unconscious, your spell didn't kill it (your spell can still kill it if it causes death by death saving throw failure, as damage while dying does). But what I said about creatures dying on 0 hit points isn't arbitrary - the choice is on the DM, but it's official. The relevant text is in the paragraph "Monsters and Death", Player's Handbook page 198 or here.
Under that rule, you should be able to get hit points out of most creatures that your own spells drop to 0 hit points. And spells that cause instant death (like the aforementioned Power Word Kill) work regardless of damage.
I would definitely encourage challenging any DM ruling that a troll was not "killed" by your spell because it didn't die until the start of its turn and not regenerating - that's basically trying to draw a line between cause and effect so fine as to say someone did not kill someone else if they stabbed them, but they bled to death rather than immediately dying. It's just completely a "jerk DM" move to try and treat the effect of your spell (that being the troll's HP being 0 when its turn started) as a separate cause with an affect of its own that had nothing to do with your casting a spell.
I have a question about Grim Harvest?
Like an example If I cast a level 3 Fireball on 2 goblins
Would I get 6 hit points back or 12 because it was 2 of them?
"Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell’s level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy."
You can only gain HP once per turn, and the health is decided by the level of the spell not the number of enemies killed. So you could gain 6 hit points back, not 12.
thank you
Grim Harvest and Smite?
Would the smite spells and/or divine smite trigger grim harvest? For a Paladin(Oathbreaker)/Cleric(Death)/Wizard(Necromancy) multiclass.
Would Eldritch smite be the same?
No to Divine/Eldritch Smite because:
Grim Harvest
At 2nd level, you gain the ability to reap life energy from creatures you kill with your spells. Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy. You don't gain this benefit for killing constructs or undead.
Divine/Eldritch Smite is not a spell but rather an ability that uses a spell slot. I would however allow the healing if you used a bonus action smite spell eg. Searing Smite, Wrathful Smite etc.
okay I'll change my spells and see if my DM feels the same, thank you
I do think its more tricky with the troll.
Let's assume: necromancer turn, partymember turn and troll turn.
If you "kill" the troll (reducing to 0 hit points) and his regeneration isn't hindered, you didn't kill it and therefore won't be healed. But what if your mate uses fire or acid or something like chill touch? Suddenly it stays dead and you did kill it o.O
I mean your teammate isn't the killer, he's the prevention.
One could argue that the magic still lingers until the troll really dies and then the heal effect takes place. But it just feels frightening if you needed the heal and maybe a second enemy (possibly 2nd troll) kills you before you could be healed by my solution. Or it still lingers and if your are not outright dead you get then healed.