The Warlock enters a dilapidated tavern looking for some thieves who have been robbing homes in an upscale neighborhood. At the time of his visit, only four halflings are sitting in the back at a beat-up table throwing knives at the ceiling trying to see if they can get them to stick. The warlock feels that these halflings are up to no good and might be the thieves he has been looking for. After exchanging some small talk with the bartender the Warlock leaves the tavern and hides waiting for the halfling to leave the tavern so he can follow them to their hideout.
Yes, the Warlock is correct these are the thieves he has been looking for but what he does not know is they are wererat. (Seems cliche I know, but well...back to the story.) The Warlock cautiously follows the Halfling through the city.
I started off by having the Warlock make a Stealth check to determine how 'cautiously' he was able to keep to the shadows or behind large groups or objects while following the Halflings.
Question:
Wererats have 'Keen Smell'
Keen Smell. The wererat has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
1) In Humanoid form would the Halfling/Wererats have access to their hybrid abilities like the 'Keen Smell'?
2) If the answer to the question above is yes, would the Halfling/Wererats be able to use 'Keen Smell' as a part of their Passive Perception to get an advantage to use to detect if they are being followed?
1) In Humanoid form would the Halfling/Wererats have access to their hybrid abilities like the 'Keen Smell'?
2) If the answer to the question above is yes, would the Halfling/Wererats be able to use 'Keen Smell' as a part of their Passive Perception to get an advantage to use to detect if they are being followed?
1)No, but keen smell is not a hybrid form ability, it has it in all forms.
2)There are no set rules regarding different senses, so it entirely up to DM. Yes, probably, but I can't can't quote you a rule about it.
I don’t know about the RAW on it, but I wonder if the halflings would have gotten a good enough whiff of the warlock in the tavern to be able to recognize the scent again. Cities are crowded places with lots of smells. It would be tough to pick it out of the background smells, I’d think.
If the warlock doesn't know the halfling is a wererat, would their usual actions to take stealth even involve smell? As a ruling, I would probably apply the keen smell bonus to the passive perception of the wererat because the warlock likely didn't think about/know about smell being an issue, if I didn't make some more drastic ruling on that. But like DxJxC said, I'm not pointing to a rule to say that, and like Farling said, I might use other factors too, like direction of travel, weather conditions etc.
2) If the answer to the question above is yes, would the Halfling/Wererats be able to use 'Keen Smell' as a part of their Passive Perception to get an advantage to use to detect if they are being followed?
For me, it would depend on how long the pursuit lasts. Picking up the scent of the same humanoid over and over would definitely create some alarm, in the same way that seeing the same car in your rear view mirror over and over would... the question is how you choose to define "over and over"
Advantage is generally thought to be the rough equivalent of +5, so if/once you do decide Keen Smell kicks in, the easy thing to do would be to boost their Passive PER by 5. If you're having the warlock make a series of Stealth checks, I'd Rule of Three it -- first two Stealth checks are against normal Passive PER, everything afterward gets the bonus since picking up that scent is now a definite pattern. If you only have them make one check, I guess you'd have to apply it right from the top, and just narrate that the wererats don't notice until later in the pursuit if that +5 is the thing that makes the difference
Note that magic like pass without trace would also negate the advantage from Keen Smell, since the spell explicitly says creatures under it leave no trace of their passage
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is the correct assumption the Warlock only believes these Halflings are just plain variety Halflings so he is not aware of any 'special' abilities they may have.
As for how long the Warlock is following the Halfling? He would be following the Halflings for at least five large city blocks to where they come to a sewer grate and climb down. This is obviously where the Warlock can choose to follow them into the sewers or go get others to help him explore the sewers to try and track down the Halfling.
The Warlock enters a dilapidated tavern looking for some thieves who have been robbing homes in an upscale neighborhood. At the time of his visit, only four halflings are sitting in the back at a beat-up table throwing knives at the ceiling trying to see if they can get them to stick. The warlock feels that these halflings are up to no good and might be the thieves he has been looking for. After exchanging some small talk with the bartender the Warlock leaves the tavern and hides waiting for the halfling to leave the tavern so he can follow them to their hideout.
Yes, the Warlock is correct these are the thieves he has been looking for but what he does not know is they are wererat. (Seems cliche I know, but well...back to the story.) The Warlock cautiously follows the Halfling through the city.
I started off by having the Warlock make a Stealth check to determine how 'cautiously' he was able to keep to the shadows or behind large groups or objects while following the Halflings.
Question:
Wererats have 'Keen Smell'
Keen Smell. The wererat has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on smell.
1) In Humanoid form would the Halfling/Wererats have access to their hybrid abilities like the 'Keen Smell'?
2) If the answer to the question above is yes, would the Halfling/Wererats be able to use 'Keen Smell' as a part of their Passive Perception to get an advantage to use to detect if they are being followed?
2) Yes, assuming the DM agrees (as one would think) that a Perception check to notice being followed partially relies on Smell and agrees that the mechanic to notice being followed is the follower needing to beat the followee's Passive Perception.
While most of the sensory rules are missing in 5E, the rules for stealth emphasize sight and hearing. It would be wholly consistent with the RAW we have for Keen Smell to work on Stealth vs. PP but if the ability is necessary to beat Stealth (adjudicated the same way as the variant rule for hitting intervening cover), the smeller only notices that something is present, without determining location, much less defeating Hidden status.
I would see more Wisdom (Perception) check relying on smell be used to detect odor ahead of you that you follow, rather than behind you when being followed, unless its particularly odorous, close by or if the wind is blowing persuer's sent toward you.
As above I would think wererats would use their superior sense of smell to sense things, looking up if rats have good vision it says no they have poor vision, so I would use the perception vision vs sheath rules replacing the word vision with smell and when in halfling form provide a bonus if their normal sight would provide a bonus. ie if I remember correctly halfling do not have eyes in the back of their heads so they cannot see behind them.
The various environmental conditions lists above can be hard for a lot of GM's to calculate on the fly so I often have just used a home made chart based on strong and unusual smells as mods (if I want or need to get that complex or if the system can support that complexity.)
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Setup:
The Warlock enters a dilapidated tavern looking for some thieves who have been robbing homes in an upscale neighborhood. At the time of his visit, only four halflings are sitting in the back at a beat-up table throwing knives at the ceiling trying to see if they can get them to stick. The warlock feels that these halflings are up to no good and might be the thieves he has been looking for. After exchanging some small talk with the bartender the Warlock leaves the tavern and hides waiting for the halfling to leave the tavern so he can follow them to their hideout.
Yes, the Warlock is correct these are the thieves he has been looking for but what he does not know is they are wererat. (Seems cliche I know, but well...back to the story.) The Warlock cautiously follows the Halfling through the city.
I started off by having the Warlock make a Stealth check to determine how 'cautiously' he was able to keep to the shadows or behind large groups or objects while following the Halflings.
Question:
Wererats have 'Keen Smell'
1) In Humanoid form would the Halfling/Wererats have access to their hybrid abilities like the 'Keen Smell'?
2) If the answer to the question above is yes, would the Halfling/Wererats be able to use 'Keen Smell' as a part of their Passive Perception to get an advantage to use to detect if they are being followed?
1)No, but keen smell is not a hybrid form ability, it has it in all forms.
2)There are no set rules regarding different senses, so it entirely up to DM. Yes, probably, but I can't can't quote you a rule about it.
I don’t know about the RAW on it, but I wonder if the halflings would have gotten a good enough whiff of the warlock in the tavern to be able to recognize the scent again. Cities are crowded places with lots of smells. It would be tough to pick it out of the background smells, I’d think.
Also, if you think of animals in the wild, Keen Smell would only detect some following you if you are downwind of the follower.
If the warlock doesn't know the halfling is a wererat, would their usual actions to take stealth even involve smell? As a ruling, I would probably apply the keen smell bonus to the passive perception of the wererat because the warlock likely didn't think about/know about smell being an issue, if I didn't make some more drastic ruling on that. But like DxJxC said, I'm not pointing to a rule to say that, and like Farling said, I might use other factors too, like direction of travel, weather conditions etc.
For me, it would depend on how long the pursuit lasts. Picking up the scent of the same humanoid over and over would definitely create some alarm, in the same way that seeing the same car in your rear view mirror over and over would... the question is how you choose to define "over and over"
Advantage is generally thought to be the rough equivalent of +5, so if/once you do decide Keen Smell kicks in, the easy thing to do would be to boost their Passive PER by 5. If you're having the warlock make a series of Stealth checks, I'd Rule of Three it -- first two Stealth checks are against normal Passive PER, everything afterward gets the bonus since picking up that scent is now a definite pattern. If you only have them make one check, I guess you'd have to apply it right from the top, and just narrate that the wererats don't notice until later in the pursuit if that +5 is the thing that makes the difference
Note that magic like pass without trace would also negate the advantage from Keen Smell, since the spell explicitly says creatures under it leave no trace of their passage
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is the correct assumption the Warlock only believes these Halflings are just plain variety Halflings so he is not aware of any 'special' abilities they may have.
As for how long the Warlock is following the Halfling? He would be following the Halflings for at least five large city blocks to where they come to a sewer grate and climb down. This is obviously where the Warlock can choose to follow them into the sewers or go get others to help him explore the sewers to try and track down the Halfling.
2) Yes, assuming the DM agrees (as one would think) that a Perception check to notice being followed partially relies on Smell and agrees that the mechanic to notice being followed is the follower needing to beat the followee's Passive Perception.
While most of the sensory rules are missing in 5E, the rules for stealth emphasize sight and hearing. It would be wholly consistent with the RAW we have for Keen Smell to work on Stealth vs. PP but if the ability is necessary to beat Stealth (adjudicated the same way as the variant rule for hitting intervening cover), the smeller only notices that something is present, without determining location, much less defeating Hidden status.
I would see more Wisdom (Perception) check relying on smell be used to detect odor ahead of you that you follow, rather than behind you when being followed, unless its particularly odorous, close by or if the wind is blowing persuer's sent toward you.
As above I would think wererats would use their superior sense of smell to sense things, looking up if rats have good vision it says no they have poor vision, so I would use the perception vision vs sheath rules replacing the word vision with smell and when in halfling form provide a bonus if their normal sight would provide a bonus. ie if I remember correctly halfling do not have eyes in the back of their heads so they cannot see behind them.
The various environmental conditions lists above can be hard for a lot of GM's to calculate on the fly so I often have just used a home made chart based on strong and unusual smells as mods (if I want or need to get that complex or if the system can support that complexity.)