Level 1 sorc/level 4 wizard. They found a another wizards spell book that has fireball in it. They say they can cast it because "its already in the book and i have 3rd level spell slots".
Rules as written if you can't prepare a spell you can't cast it no matter what. So can they cast fireball as a level 4 wizard level 1 sorc?
Your class level determines the highest level of spell you can cast: a level 4 wizard can't cast 3rd level spells, so all they can do with their 3rd level slots is upcast a 1st or 2nd level spell.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Level 1 sorc/level 4 wizard. They found a another wizards spell book that has fireball in it. They say they can cast it because "its already in the book and i have 3rd level spell slots".
It may in **a** spellbook, but it's not in the **character's** spellbook.
The rules are clear. To prepare a spell, a wizard may choose from among the spells in their own spellbook. There are rules for learning spells from others' spellbooks, but, as was pointed out above, that's limited by your CLASS. If none of your classes (individually) say you can learn 3rd level spells, you cannot copy it into your spellbook.
For example, here's the wording for wizards: "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table." Key phrase is wizard level. Their wizard level is 4. (ie: not total character level)
Spell slots are simply calculated differently because they're multiclassed.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Thank you all for clearing that up for me. I was told I was wrong so many times with a "nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, NOPE, NOPE, NOPE!" So just hearing this come from the community is really refreshing to know I'm not wrong.
A way to think about this: a character could take 1 level of wizard and then multiclass to any other full-caster class and not lose any wizard spell progression provided you could find spells to scribe into your spellbook: a Wizard 1/Cleric 19 would be able to cast 9th level wizard spells if it worked that way. They might only be able to prepare 1+Int wizard spells per day, but it would still be incredibly broken for a class that's already a very good one.
The only time that your character level gets used rather than your class level when it comes to casting a spell is determining the power of a cantrip.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
I mean... can you point to what you're referring to? I feel like we've all pointed to the rules preventing a lvl 1 wizard with a 3rd lvl spell slot from learning a 3rd lvl spell.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
A level 1 wizard doesn't have 3rd level spell slots, so that argument is a nonstarter.
The RAW is written just fine for this rule. You prepare spells as if you were single classed. Single class characters do not have multiclass spell slots. This will never not be the case.
It is one thing when a new player doesn't know about the rule, it is another thing when someone knows about the rule but tries to deny the rule's existence. Please stop.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
A level 1 wizard doesn't have 3rd level spell slots, so that argument is a nonstarter.
There is no rule preventing this. It is not a nonstarter.
Imagine for a moment a Feat that grants a character a single level 3 spell slot. Now, your Level 1 Variant Human Wizard takes this feat. He is a single classed wizard, and has a 3rd level spell slot. Can he or can he not Learn, Prepare, and Cast Fireball? Yes. Yes he can.
The RAW is written just fine for this rule.
No it isn't. The RAI is just fine for this rule. The examples make it clear how it is supposed to work, they tell us the Intent, thus the rules as Intended are perfectly clear. No issues there.
RAW though? It has holes. If they didn't add those examples it'd be a nightmare.
You prepare spells as if you were single classed. Single class characters do not have multiclass spell slots. This will never not be the case.
What's interesting, though, is spells known and spell slots are 2 different rules.
Let that sink in.
RAW, preparing as if you are single classed has zero effect on your spell slots. They are, again, 2 different rules.
So preparing as if you are single classed cannot be said to change how many slots you have by RAW alone. We need the Examples to help us here, to tell us that what the devs meant to say. Not what they did say. But what they meant to say. Ie. RAI.
It is one thing when a new player doesn't know about the rule, it is another thing when someone knows about the rule but tries to deny the rule's existence. Please stop.
It has been true since their first printing of the 5e PHB and it remains true now. They've never errata'd it. Until they do, the rules, as written, say what they say.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
[REDACTED]
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
When you read your Multiclassing rules on Spellcasting, you'll notice it is broken into two distinct parts. Each is applied at the same time, but independently. Those sections are:
Spells Known and Prepared.
Spell Slots.
So when something in the Spells Known and Prepared section tells you you can prepare spells as if you are a single classed wizard, you then look at your single class wizard features and apply them. But it doesn't change your multiclass Spell Slots rule, since that is a different rule.
So, what does our single class Wizard rule say?
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
The spells must be a level for which you have spell slots.
Well, funny thing about that, we do have higher level spell slots, don't we? Yes. Yes we do. Objectively true.
Now. Is that what the devs intended? No of course not. But it is what they wrote. So: RAI is absolutely and abundantly clear that you cannot do this. RAW though? What they 'wrote'? Has some holes.
There ain't anything wrong is acknowledging a flaw in how something is written in the PHB. There is plenty of stuff that could use a tune-up.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
When you read your Multiclassing rules on Spellcasting, you'll notice it is broken into two distinct parts. Each is applied at the same time, but independently. Those sections are:
Spells Known and Prepared.
Spell Slots.
So when something in the Spells Known and Prepared section tells you you can prepare spells as if you are a single classed wizard, you then look at your single class wizard features and apply them. But it doesn't change your multiclass Spell Slots rule, since that is a different rule.
So, what does our single class Wizard rule say?
You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast. To do so, choose a number of wizard spells from your spellbook equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.
The spells must be a level for which you have spell slots.
Well, funny thing about that, we do have higher level spell slots, don't we? Yes. Yes we do. Objectively true.
When the multiclassing section says that you prepare spells as if you only had levels in a single class, spell slots that you gain because of other classes shouldn't have any bearing on what spells you can prepare. If you take spell slots from other classes into account, then you're not following the rule of pretending you're a single-classed character when preparing spells. It may be objectively true that you have higher level spell slots, but it is not objectively true that they should be counted when preparing spells, due to the rule that says to ignore your other classes, and therefore also ignore the spell slots that come with them.
Sure, if you had a feat that gave you a 3rd level spell slot, then you could prepare 3rd level spells as a first level Wizard. The multiclassing rules wouldn't even apply. Of course, no such feat does or will ever exist.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
When the multiclassing section says that you prepare spells as if you only had levels in a single class, spell slots that you gain because of other classes shouldn't have any bearing on what spells you can prepare.
Well I agree. They "shouldn't" have any bearing on what you can prepare. Unfortunately for both of us, that was how they decided to write it.
If you take spell slots from other classes into account, then you're not following the rule of pretending you're a single-classed character when preparing spells.
Yeah you are. Because the spell slots come from a different part of the multiclass rules. So you don't pretend anything with slots. Not RAW.
It may be objectively true that you have higher level spell slots, but it is not objectively true that they should be counted when preparing spells, due to the rule that says to ignore your other classes, and therefore also ignore the spell slots that come with them.
Again, that rule doesn't say it affects your multiclass slots. it is from a seperate part of the mutliclass rules. There are, again, two rules here. Prepared, and Slots.
Pretending you're single classes for the Prepared has exactly zero effect on the Slots.
it "should" have been written to pretend for both. And the example makes it perfectly clear that's how they Intended it it to work. You understanding is how the Devs want it to work. it is how everyone, including myself plays it. But, just facing reality here, it isn't how they wrote it.
Sure, if you had a feat that gave you a 3rd level spell slot, then you could prepare 3rd level spells as a first level Wizard. The multiclassing rules wouldn't even apply.
Ah, and here we have the rub. If a 1st level wizard can have a 3rd level slot because some different rule says so, and it counts, then that's how the multiclass rule for slots would also be applied, since it is a different separate rule from the multiclass prepared spells rule.
I don't really know why people argue this with me. I'm not arguing anyone should play that way. We all know what the RAI is, everyone nearly universally agrees how it should be played and plays it that way. I do. You do. Neraly everyone does. Me acknowledging a quirk in the way the PHB is written shouldn't be cause for this type of response.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
A level 1 wizard doesn't have 3rd level spell slots, so that argument is a nonstarter.
There is no rule preventing this. It is not a nonstarter.
Imagine for a moment a Feat that grants a character a single level 3 spell slot. Now, your Level 1 Variant Human Wizard takes this feat. He is a single classed wizard, and has a 3rd level spell slot. Can he or can he not Learn, Prepare, and Cast Fireball? Yes. Yes he can.
You're right. There aren't rules about things not part of the game. If you hypothetically make a homebrew specifically to do something not possible in the official rules, then you can discuss that all you want in a different subforum, because this one is for official rules.
The multiclassing rules do not apply to your hypothetical homebrew, so this is irrelevant anyway.
The RAW is written just fine for this rule.
No it isn't. The RAI is just fine for this rule. The examples make it clear how it is supposed to work, they tell us the Intent, thus the rules as Intended are perfectly clear. No issues there.
RAW though? It has holes. If they didn't add those examples it'd be a nightmare.
The example written in the rules makes it clear? So we agree the written rules are clear? Let me guess, you are going to say examples in the rules arent part of the rules they are written in?
No matter, because the non-example parts are still written just fine as pointed out in my next sentence:
You prepare spells as if you were single classed. Single class characters do not have multiclass spell slots. This will never not be the case.
What's interesting, though, is spells known and spell slots are 2 different rules.
Let that sink in.
RAW, preparing as if you are single classed has zero effect on your spell slots. They are, again, 2 different rules.
So preparing as if you are single classed cannot be said to change how many slots you have by RAW alone. We need the Examples to help us here, to tell us that what the devs meant to say. Not what they did say. But what they meant to say. Ie. RAI.
Not really. They are as much separate rules as adding your ability modifier to attack rolls and adding proficiency bonus to attack rolls are separate rules (the are both part of the 'modifiers to the [attack] roll' rules).
But that is irrelevant, because rules can specifically over rule other rules. Let that sink in (it is incredibly common and important to play this game). The rule for learning/preparing spells as a multiclassed spellcaster says to ignore other classes' features and multiclass rules for this one task (just written more concisely, but concisely).
The section of the multiclass spellcasting rule about learning/preparing spells as a multiclass spellcaster only exists to prevent exactly what you are arguing and serves no other purpose.
It is one thing when a new player doesn't know about the rule, it is another thing when someone knows about the rule but tries to deny the rule's existence. Please stop.
It has been true since their first printing of the 5e PHB and it remains true now. They've never errata'd it. Until they do, the rules, as written, say what they say.
Why would they errata a clear rule with an even clearer example? There isn't anything to change or arb and nothing has been added to the game that requires this rule to be changed. Saying there is no errata for a rule that says something you say it doesn't isn't even an argument (which makes 2.5 out of 4 of the points in this rant irrelevant to the argument). Please stop.
Ah, and here we have the rub. If a 1st level wizard can have a 3rd level slot because some different rule says so, and it counts, then that's how the multiclass rule for slots would also be applied, since it is a different separate rule from the multiclass prepared spells rule.
Except there's no such rule that gives a 1st level wizard the ability to learn 3rd level spells, even if you had some sort of cheesy homebrew feat that let you learn Fireball, that would be caused by the feat and not your wizard level.
Here's what the relevant rules say:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Ah, and here we have the rub. If a 1st level wizard can have a 3rd level slot because some different rule says so, and it counts, then that's how the multiclass rule for slots would also be applied, since it is a different separate rule from the multiclass prepared spells rule.
Except there's no such rule that gives a 1st level wizard the ability to learn 3rd level spells, even if you had some sort of cheesy homebrew feat that let you learn Fireball, that would be caused by the feat and not your wizard level.
Exactly! Now you get it. You'd have a 3rd level spell slot due to a feat, and not from your wizard levels. But you'd still be able to learn and prepare and cast a 3rd level spell because your wizard rules don't care how you got the spell slot, only that you have the spell slot.
Exactly the same as how a multiclass character has spellslots. They no longer even have wizard spell slots. They only have multclass slots. And their wizard class rules for preparing spells references the slots they have.
Here's what the relevant rules say:
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells. If a lower-level spell that you cast, like burning hands, has an enhanced effect when cast using a higher-level slot, you can use the enhanced effect, even though you don’t have any spells of that higher level.
For example, if you are the aforementioned ranger 4/wizard 3, you count as a 5th-level character when determining your spell slots: you have four 1st-level slots, three 2nd-level slots, and two 3rd-level slots. However, you don’t know any 3rd-level spells, nor do you know any 2nd-level ranger spells. You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know — and potentially enhance their effects.
Orange: Might. Might give you. Doesn't say it will.
Red: This is an Example. Examples help us to understand the Intent of the rules. Thus are illustrative of RAI. This example does a perfectly good job of demonstrating that Intent, and I have not and never have contested the Intent of the rule. The Intent is very clear, as demonstrated by this example and the others in the book. The RAW? Less clear. Thankfully, this example was included to clear it up for us all.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When the multiclassing section says that you prepare spells as if you only had levels in a single class, spell slots that you gain because of other classes shouldn't have any bearing on what spells you can prepare.
Well I agree. They "shouldn't" have any bearing on what you can prepare. Unfortunately for both of us, that was how they decided to write it.
If you take spell slots from other classes into account, then you're not following the rule of pretending you're a single-classed character when preparing spells.
Yeah you are. Because the spell slots come from a different part of the multiclass rules. So you don't pretend anything with slots. Not RAW.
It may be objectively true that you have higher level spell slots, but it is not objectively true that they should be counted when preparing spells, due to the rule that says to ignore your other classes, and therefore also ignore the spell slots that come with them.
Again, that rule doesn't say it affects your multiclass slots. it is from a seperate part of the mutliclass rules. There are, again, two rules here. Prepared, and Slots.
Pretending you're single classes for the Prepared has exactly zero effect on the Slots.
it "should" have been written to pretend for both. And the example makes it perfectly clear that's how they Intended it it to work. You understanding is how the Devs want it to work. it is how everyone, including myself plays it. But, just facing reality here, it isn't how they wrote it.
Sure, if you had a feat that gave you a 3rd level spell slot, then you could prepare 3rd level spells as a first level Wizard. The multiclassing rules wouldn't even apply.
Ah, and here we have the rub. If a 1st level wizard can have a 3rd level slot because some different rule says so, and it counts, then that's how the multiclass rule for slots would also be applied, since it is a different separate rule from the multiclass prepared spells rule.
I don't really know why people argue this with me. I'm not arguing anyone should play that way. We all know what the RAI is, everyone nearly universally agrees how it should be played and plays it that way. I do. You do. Neraly everyone does. Me acknowledging a quirk in the way the PHB is written shouldn't be cause for this type of response.
Oh, dear lord. It's already been done. If Ravnodaus does not learn from history, we are all doomed to repeat it.
Anyways. Picture, if you will, a Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion. The multiclass rules say to prepare your spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class." So, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, this Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion is effectively just a Cleric 1. This is the most literal interpretation of RAW, and I am making absolutely zero leaps in logic or assumptions here (although I'm sure you'll say that I am anyways). Of course, a Cleric 1 does not have the spell slots of a Wizard a Billion. This is pure fact still. Since the rules say to treat this situation as if I were a Cleric 1, the rules for spell slots when multiclassing (and the spell slots gained as a result of said rules) do not apply here, since I am effectively not multiclassing. Only the rules for cleric spell slots do. If I were attuned to an item only attunable by Wizards that gave me a 3rd level spell slot, then it would also not apply for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, since I would not be able to attune to it as a Cleric 1. If, on my fourth Wizard level, I took your nebulous and largely irrelevant feat giving me a 3rd level spell slot, it would also not apply, since I would effectively never have gotten the Ability Score Improvement feature from being a fourth level Wizard. Since the rules direct to prepare cleric spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class," I would only have the normal 2 1st-level spell slots that a Cleric 1 would have for the purposes of preparing cleric spells. The Preparing and Casting Spells section of Cleric directs as follows:
You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have a spell slot.
Since, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, the only spells that I have a spell slot for are 1st-level, I could prepare a number of 1st-level cleric spells equal to my Wisdom modifier + my cleric level (minimum of one spell). I could not prepare any cleric spells of a higher level, since I do not effectively have any 2nd-level or higher spell slots for the purposes of preparing cleric spells.
Maybe all of your claims on the rules wouldn't be so argued against if people ever believed that they were right. Alas.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Anyways. Picture, if you will, a Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion.
I'll take this as the hypothetical it is. My only objection is you need to flip the levels. Wizard 1/Cleric a Billion. I'll be responding as if that was what you meant. Since we are talking about wizard spells known and fireball etc.
The multiclass rules say to prepare your spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class." So, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, this Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion is effectively just a Cleric 1. This is the most literal interpretation of RAW, and I am making absolutely zero leaps in logic or assumptions here (although I'm sure you'll say that I am anyways).
RAW: You prepare them as a single classed member. I'm with you on this hypothetical still. You follow the rules for preparing as if you had that feature as a level 1 wizard.
We do need to point out here that we still have our Billion+1th level spell Slots though. Since spell slots are not calculated in the prepare rules.
Derive slots as multiclass
Prepare spells as single class
Single class prepare says can prepare any level we have slots for
Check. Check. Check. I'm right there with you so far. Just a level 1 wizard with billions of spell slots.
Of course, a Cleric 1 does not have the spell slots of a Wizard a Billion. This is pure fact still.
Annnnd you lost me. By RAW you do: You're a level 1 wizard with billions of slots.
Since the rules say to treat this situation as if I were a Cleric 1, the rules for spell slots when multiclassing (and the spell slots gained as a result of said rules) do not apply here, since I am effectively not multiclassing.
That'd be true if the spell slot rules was a subsection of the prepared spell rule. It isn't. It is a separate rule. You prepare your spells as a single class while having the spell slots of a multiclass. RAW anyway. Because they are 2 different simultaneous rules. The preparation rules do not change anything about the slot rules.
--Switching from RAW to RAI--
RAI: Of course that's how it is supposed to work.
If, on my fourth Wizard level, I took your nebulous and largely irrelevant feat giving me a 3rd level spell slot, it would also not apply, since I would effectively never have gotten the Ability Score Improvement feature from being a fourth level Wizard. Since the rules direct to prepare cleric spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class," I would only have the normal 2 1st-level spell slots that a Cleric 1 would have for the purposes of preparing cleric spells.
The Preparing and Casting Spells section of Cleric directs as follows:
You prepare the list of cleric spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the cleric spell list. When you do so, choose a number of cleric spells equal to your Wisdom modifier + your cleric level (minimum of one spell). The spells must be of a level for which you have a spell slot.
Since, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, the only spells that I have a spell slot for are 1st-level, I could prepare a number of 1st-level cleric spells equal to my Wisdom modifier + my cleric level (minimum of one spell). I could not prepare any cleric spells of a higher level, since I do not effectively have any 2nd-level or higher spell slots for the purposes of preparing cleric spells.
It was intended that it works exactly like what you're saying. You have zero dispute from me there, I fully understand the RAI. We have an accord. This is the way you should play the game. 100%.
Maybe all of your claims on the rules wouldn't be so argued against if people ever believed that they were right. Alas.
I honestly have no idea what the issue is here. We all agree how you're supposed to play. The RAI is exceedingly clear. I agree with you and everyone exactly how the RAI works. The authors want you to make believe that you are only a level 1 wizard and any features you gained from anything other than your levels of wizard should be ignored, up to and including retroactively removing all your multiclass spell slots, ignoring the written multiclass rules for calculating those spell slots, and then granting you new slots from the class table but then immediately undoing all that again after you finished preparing spells. We agree. That's the intent. I openly agree. I can't agree harder if you try convincing me more. Because I'm already fully 100% there, total agreement.
It just, ain't the RAW. What is written, in the rules, doesn't fully sync up with what they intended. The examples clear it up though.
There is literally zero reason to try to convince me what the RAI is or how you're supposed to play these rules. I agree with you there. The only thing we disagree on seems to be the definition of what RAW is. I think it means: rules as written. To be RAW means to be a rule. And to be written in the rulebook and interpreted as it is written (ie without outside context). If that's what you have an issue with I'd encourage a second topic be opened where we discuss that. Otherwise my point here stands. RAW, the multiclass rules for prepared spells have some holes in them. And RAI is perfectly clear how it should work, a ruling we all are in agreement on and needn't rehash.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Real simple question.
Level 1 sorc/level 4 wizard. They found a another wizards spell book that has fireball in it. They say they can cast it because "its already in the book and i have 3rd level spell slots".
Rules as written if you can't prepare a spell you can't cast it no matter what. So can they cast fireball as a level 4 wizard level 1 sorc?
Simple answers please, hes a simple guy.
I think you would have to transcribe their spell from their spell book into your spell book and follow the rules for that first.
Your class level determines the highest level of spell you can cast: a level 4 wizard can't cast 3rd level spells, so all they can do with their 3rd level slots is upcast a 1st or 2nd level spell.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It may in **a** spellbook, but it's not in the **character's** spellbook.
The rules are clear. To prepare a spell, a wizard may choose from among the spells in their own spellbook. There are rules for learning spells from others' spellbooks, but, as was pointed out above, that's limited by your CLASS. If none of your classes (individually) say you can learn 3rd level spells, you cannot copy it into your spellbook.
For example, here's the wording for wizards: "Each time you gain a wizard level, you can add two wizard spells of your choice to your spellbook for free. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots, as shown on the Wizard table." Key phrase is wizard level. Their wizard level is 4. (ie: not total character level)
Spell slots are simply calculated differently because they're multiclassed.
A level 4 wizard can not learn/prepare a level 3 spell. A level 1 sorcerer can not learn a level 3 spell. So no, the PC cannot learn or prepare fireball to cast with their spellcasting feature.
Thank you all for clearing that up for me. I was told I was wrong so many times with a "nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, NOPE, NOPE, NOPE!" So just hearing this come from the community is really refreshing to know I'm not wrong.
A way to think about this: a character could take 1 level of wizard and then multiclass to any other full-caster class and not lose any wizard spell progression provided you could find spells to scribe into your spellbook: a Wizard 1/Cleric 19 would be able to cast 9th level wizard spells if it worked that way. They might only be able to prepare 1+Int wizard spells per day, but it would still be incredibly broken for a class that's already a very good one.
The only time that your character level gets used rather than your class level when it comes to casting a spell is determining the power of a cantrip.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Strictly speaking, a level 1 Wizard who has a 3rd level spell slot could indeed learn and then cast Fireball.
RAW: The multi-class rules aren't written great. Strict RAW allows this sort of shenanigans. Thankfully, the RAI is abundantly clear it isn't supposed to work that way. The examples provide sufficient instruction on how it is supposed to work, even if the RAW itself is lacking.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I mean... can you point to what you're referring to? I feel like we've all pointed to the rules preventing a lvl 1 wizard with a 3rd lvl spell slot from learning a 3rd lvl spell.
A level 1 wizard doesn't have 3rd level spell slots, so that argument is a nonstarter.
The RAW is written just fine for this rule. You prepare spells as if you were single classed. Single class characters do not have multiclass spell slots. This will never not be the case.
It is one thing when a new player doesn't know about the rule, it is another thing when someone knows about the rule but tries to deny the rule's existence. Please stop.
There is no rule preventing this. It is not a nonstarter.
Imagine for a moment a Feat that grants a character a single level 3 spell slot. Now, your Level 1 Variant Human Wizard takes this feat. He is a single classed wizard, and has a 3rd level spell slot. Can he or can he not Learn, Prepare, and Cast Fireball? Yes. Yes he can.
No it isn't. The RAI is just fine for this rule. The examples make it clear how it is supposed to work, they tell us the Intent, thus the rules as Intended are perfectly clear. No issues there.
RAW though? It has holes. If they didn't add those examples it'd be a nightmare.
What's interesting, though, is spells known and spell slots are 2 different rules.
Let that sink in.
RAW, preparing as if you are single classed has zero effect on your spell slots. They are, again, 2 different rules.
So preparing as if you are single classed cannot be said to change how many slots you have by RAW alone. We need the Examples to help us here, to tell us that what the devs meant to say. Not what they did say. But what they meant to say. Ie. RAI.
It has been true since their first printing of the 5e PHB and it remains true now. They've never errata'd it. Until they do, the rules, as written, say what they say.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
[REDACTED]
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
Where is the confusion?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
When you read your Multiclassing rules on Spellcasting, you'll notice it is broken into two distinct parts. Each is applied at the same time, but independently. Those sections are:
So when something in the Spells Known and Prepared section tells you you can prepare spells as if you are a single classed wizard, you then look at your single class wizard features and apply them. But it doesn't change your multiclass Spell Slots rule, since that is a different rule.
So, what does our single class Wizard rule say?
The spells must be a level for which you have spell slots.
Well, funny thing about that, we do have higher level spell slots, don't we? Yes. Yes we do. Objectively true.
Now. Is that what the devs intended? No of course not. But it is what they wrote. So: RAI is absolutely and abundantly clear that you cannot do this. RAW though? What they 'wrote'? Has some holes.
There ain't anything wrong is acknowledging a flaw in how something is written in the PHB. There is plenty of stuff that could use a tune-up.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When the multiclassing section says that you prepare spells as if you only had levels in a single class, spell slots that you gain because of other classes shouldn't have any bearing on what spells you can prepare. If you take spell slots from other classes into account, then you're not following the rule of pretending you're a single-classed character when preparing spells. It may be objectively true that you have higher level spell slots, but it is not objectively true that they should be counted when preparing spells, due to the rule that says to ignore your other classes, and therefore also ignore the spell slots that come with them.
Sure, if you had a feat that gave you a 3rd level spell slot, then you could prepare 3rd level spells as a first level Wizard. The multiclassing rules wouldn't even apply. Of course, no such feat does or will ever exist.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well I agree. They "shouldn't" have any bearing on what you can prepare. Unfortunately for both of us, that was how they decided to write it.
Yeah you are. Because the spell slots come from a different part of the multiclass rules. So you don't pretend anything with slots. Not RAW.
Again, that rule doesn't say it affects your multiclass slots. it is from a seperate part of the mutliclass rules. There are, again, two rules here. Prepared, and Slots.
Pretending you're single classes for the Prepared has exactly zero effect on the Slots.
it "should" have been written to pretend for both. And the example makes it perfectly clear that's how they Intended it it to work. You understanding is how the Devs want it to work. it is how everyone, including myself plays it. But, just facing reality here, it isn't how they wrote it.
Ah, and here we have the rub. If a 1st level wizard can have a 3rd level slot because some different rule says so, and it counts, then that's how the multiclass rule for slots would also be applied, since it is a different separate rule from the multiclass prepared spells rule.
I don't really know why people argue this with me. I'm not arguing anyone should play that way. We all know what the RAI is, everyone nearly universally agrees how it should be played and plays it that way. I do. You do. Neraly everyone does. Me acknowledging a quirk in the way the PHB is written shouldn't be cause for this type of response.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You're right. There aren't rules about things not part of the game. If you hypothetically make a homebrew specifically to do something not possible in the official rules, then you can discuss that all you want in a different subforum, because this one is for official rules.
The multiclassing rules do not apply to your hypothetical homebrew, so this is irrelevant anyway.
The example written in the rules makes it clear? So we agree the written rules are clear? Let me guess, you are going to say examples in the rules arent part of the rules they are written in?
No matter, because the non-example parts are still written just fine as pointed out in my next sentence:
Not really. They are as much separate rules as adding your ability modifier to attack rolls and adding proficiency bonus to attack rolls are separate rules (the are both part of the 'modifiers to the [attack] roll' rules).
But that is irrelevant, because rules can specifically over rule other rules. Let that sink in (it is incredibly common and important to play this game). The rule for learning/preparing spells as a multiclassed spellcaster says to ignore other classes' features and multiclass rules for this one task (just written more concisely, but concisely).
The section of the multiclass spellcasting rule about learning/preparing spells as a multiclass spellcaster only exists to prevent exactly what you are arguing and serves no other purpose.
Why would they errata a clear rule with an even clearer example? There isn't anything to change or arb and nothing has been added to the game that requires this rule to be changed. Saying there is no errata for a rule that says something you say it doesn't isn't even an argument (which makes 2.5 out of 4 of the points in this rant irrelevant to the argument). Please stop.
Except there's no such rule that gives a 1st level wizard the ability to learn 3rd level spells, even if you had some sort of cheesy homebrew feat that let you learn Fireball, that would be caused by the feat and not your wizard level.
Here's what the relevant rules say:
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Exactly! Now you get it. You'd have a 3rd level spell slot due to a feat, and not from your wizard levels. But you'd still be able to learn and prepare and cast a 3rd level spell because your wizard rules don't care how you got the spell slot, only that you have the spell slot.
Exactly the same as how a multiclass character has spellslots. They no longer even have wizard spell slots. They only have multclass slots. And their wizard class rules for preparing spells references the slots they have.
Orange: Might. Might give you. Doesn't say it will.
Red: This is an Example. Examples help us to understand the Intent of the rules. Thus are illustrative of RAI. This example does a perfectly good job of demonstrating that Intent, and I have not and never have contested the Intent of the rule. The Intent is very clear, as demonstrated by this example and the others in the book. The RAW? Less clear. Thankfully, this example was included to clear it up for us all.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Oh, dear lord. It's already been done. If Ravnodaus does not learn from history, we are all doomed to repeat it.
Anyways. Picture, if you will, a Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion. The multiclass rules say to prepare your spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class." So, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, this Cleric 1/Wizard a Billion is effectively just a Cleric 1. This is the most literal interpretation of RAW, and I am making absolutely zero leaps in logic or assumptions here (although I'm sure you'll say that I am anyways). Of course, a Cleric 1 does not have the spell slots of a Wizard a Billion. This is pure fact still. Since the rules say to treat this situation as if I were a Cleric 1, the rules for spell slots when multiclassing (and the spell slots gained as a result of said rules) do not apply here, since I am effectively not multiclassing. Only the rules for cleric spell slots do. If I were attuned to an item only attunable by Wizards that gave me a 3rd level spell slot, then it would also not apply for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, since I would not be able to attune to it as a Cleric 1. If, on my fourth Wizard level, I took your nebulous and largely irrelevant feat giving me a 3rd level spell slot, it would also not apply, since I would effectively never have gotten the Ability Score Improvement feature from being a fourth level Wizard. Since the rules direct to prepare cleric spells "as if you were a single-classed member of that class," I would only have the normal 2 1st-level spell slots that a Cleric 1 would have for the purposes of preparing cleric spells. The Preparing and Casting Spells section of Cleric directs as follows:
Since, for the purposes of preparing cleric spells, the only spells that I have a spell slot for are 1st-level, I could prepare a number of 1st-level cleric spells equal to my Wisdom modifier + my cleric level (minimum of one spell). I could not prepare any cleric spells of a higher level, since I do not effectively have any 2nd-level or higher spell slots for the purposes of preparing cleric spells.
Maybe all of your claims on the rules wouldn't be so argued against if people ever believed that they were right. Alas.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Check. Check. Check. I'm right there with you so far. Just a level 1 wizard with billions of spell slots.
--Switching from RAW to RAI--
It was intended that it works exactly like what you're saying. You have zero dispute from me there, I fully understand the RAI. We have an accord. This is the way you should play the game. 100%.
I honestly have no idea what the issue is here. We all agree how you're supposed to play. The RAI is exceedingly clear. I agree with you and everyone exactly how the RAI works. The authors want you to make believe that you are only a level 1 wizard and any features you gained from anything other than your levels of wizard should be ignored, up to and including retroactively removing all your multiclass spell slots, ignoring the written multiclass rules for calculating those spell slots, and then granting you new slots from the class table but then immediately undoing all that again after you finished preparing spells. We agree. That's the intent. I openly agree. I can't agree harder if you try convincing me more. Because I'm already fully 100% there, total agreement.
It just, ain't the RAW. What is written, in the rules, doesn't fully sync up with what they intended. The examples clear it up though.
There is literally zero reason to try to convince me what the RAI is or how you're supposed to play these rules. I agree with you there. The only thing we disagree on seems to be the definition of what RAW is. I think it means: rules as written. To be RAW means to be a rule. And to be written in the rulebook and interpreted as it is written (ie without outside context). If that's what you have an issue with I'd encourage a second topic be opened where we discuss that. Otherwise my point here stands. RAW, the multiclass rules for prepared spells have some holes in them. And RAI is perfectly clear how it should work, a ruling we all are in agreement on and needn't rehash.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.