Hi I'm looking for guidance on an Artillerist using the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion + Arcane Firearm Feature ... can the benefits/bonuses of such an AF be used when casting spells from a spell scroll? It's my understanding that no material components are required to cast a spell scroll since they are provided in the creation of the scroll (DMG). But since all artificers require M to cast a spell (TCoE), I am wondering if this is a case of specific rules (artificer spell casting rules) overruling the general rule (casting spells from scrolls). Please advise, and thanks!
Hi I'm looking for guidance on an Artillerist using the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion + Arcane Firearm Feature ... can the benefits/bonuses of such an AF be used when casting spells from a spell scroll?
Yes, certainly.
It's my understanding that no material components are required to cast a spell scroll since they are provided in the creation of the scroll (DMG). But since all artificers require M to cast a spell (TCoE), I am wondering if this is a case of specific rules (artificer spell casting rules) overruling the general rule (casting spells from scrolls). Please advise, and thanks!
Outside of a house rule from your DM, AF has no interaction with M components other than that your AF can be used as a spellcasting focus. While it's undefined in the rules (and hence up to your DM) what it means to "cast an artificer spell through the firearm", certainly there are no rules on spell scrolls preventing you from doing so.
quindraco is incorrect. What it means to cast a spell through your arcane firearm is to use it as a spellcasting focus for that spell. When you cast a spell from a spell scroll, you provide no material components, so spellcasting foci do not interact with that casting.
quindraco is incorrect. What it means to cast a spell through your arcane firearm is to use it as a spellcasting focus for that spell. When you cast a spell from a spell scroll, you provide no material components, so spellcasting foci do not interact with that casting.
Thanks! That's how I originally interpreted the rules by what's written in the DMG regarding spell scrolls. But I wasn't sure, because the Artificer class is singular in that M is required (through tools, enhanced AF and/or Arcane firearm) for the casting of Artificer spells. So I thought this might be a case of specific beats general in terms of rules. The language used around the arcane firearm and the enhanced arcane focus suggests that it could be interpreted as quindraco has. The Arcane Firearm feature says "when you cast an artificer spell through the firearm," so that made me wonder about any spell that's on the Artificer list cast using a spell slot or otherwise. Also, the enhanced Arcane Focus infusion says "when holding this item, a creature gains a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls" without specifying that it's in tandem with using a spell slot, so it could be interpreted to mean any spell cast while holding the AF.
quindraco is incorrect. What it means to cast a spell through your arcane firearm is to use it as a spellcasting focus for that spell. When you cast a spell from a spell scroll, you provide no material components, so spellcasting foci do not interact with that casting.
Yea I have to agree. While the sentence uses the word "can" that is clearly a reference to the fact that you can cast without using the Firearm, no that you can use the Firearm in any other way.
You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
This section is the only part with rules for using the Firearm, the rest is how you create it (and the look of it and the longevity and such). The Firearm is a Foci and thus is used as a Foci normally would be.
quindraco is incorrect. What it means to cast a spell through your arcane firearm is to use it as a spellcasting focus for that spell. When you cast a spell from a spell scroll, you provide no material components, so spellcasting foci do not interact with that casting.
Yea I have to agree. While the sentence uses the word "can" that is clearly a reference to the fact that you can cast without using the Firearm, no that you can use the Firearm in any other way.
You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
This section is the only part with rules for using the Firearm, the rest is how you create it (and the look of it and the longevity and such). The Firearm is a Foci and thus is used as a Foci normally would be.
I get this reading. What about the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion, though? It reads that the creature "holding it" can take +1 bonus to spell attack rolls and ignore 1/2 cover. Do you think this benefit applies only to spells cast using a spell slot or to any spell attack roll made while the AF is in hand?
quindraco is incorrect. What it means to cast a spell through your arcane firearm is to use it as a spellcasting focus for that spell. When you cast a spell from a spell scroll, you provide no material components, so spellcasting foci do not interact with that casting.
Yes and no. I agree that scrolls don't work with the Arcane Firearm because I don't think it makes sense to cast from a scroll through your arcane firearm.
However, it is possible to make a magic wand/rod/staff into an Arcane Firearm (hence why it still works with Enhanced Arcane Focus) and something like the Wand of Fireballs explicitly lets you cast spells from the magic item. RAW that spell does not require material components when it's cast from a magic item which based on your logic would disqualify it from benefiting from the boost granted by Arcane Firearm even if that wand itself were made into the Artillerist's Arcane Firearm.
The way I'd look at it is where does the spell come from?
If the spell comes from the Artificer using the firearm as a focus it is cast through the firearm. If the spell comes from the firearm itself then it is cast through the firearm. If the spell comes from a different source and the firearm is not used as a focus then it is not cast through the firearm.
However, it is possible to make a magic wand/rod/staff into an Arcane Firearm (hence why it still works with Enhanced Arcane Focus) and something like the Wand of Fireballs explicitly lets you cast spells from the magic item. RAW that spell does not require material components when it's cast from a magic item which based on your logic would disqualify it from benefiting from the boost granted by Arcane Firearm even if that wand itself were made into the Artillerist's Arcane Firearm.
Yeah, casting a spell from a wand that happens to be your arcane firearm is not casting a spell through it. "Through" definitionally requires that the source be external to the thing. I'm extremely comfortable saying that the fireball spell you cast from that wand of fireballs doesn't get the additional d8.
I added some bold and italics styling for emphasis.
Spellcasting
1st-level artificer feature
You’ve studied the workings of magic and how to cast spells, channeling the magic through objects. To observers, you don’t appear to be casting spells in a conventional way; you appear to produce wonders from mundane items and outlandish inventions.
Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way.
<snip>
Arcane Firearm
5th-level Artillerist feature
You know how to turn a wand, staff, or rod into an arcane firearm, a conduit for your destructive spells. When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver’s tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm. The sigils disappear from the object if you later carve them on a different item. The sigils otherwise last indefinitely.
You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
To draw it out explicitly, it's saying that you cast "through" your spellcasting foci, that this looks different from normal spellcasting, and (later) that you use an arcane firearm as such a focus.
BTW, I'd say it's clear that casting from a scroll doesn't benefit from the firearm. Given that most wands (the type with charges used to for an actual spell) refer to using as using a charge to "cast the spell," and the firearm say anything about it needing to be from your artificer spell slots, I'd say it's reasonable for a DM to rule that it works with the firearm bonus damage, provided it's an artificer spell (including the artillerist-specific ones like Fireball). But I also wouldn't fault a DM for ruling otherwise. EDIT: the other, possibly more clear ruling is that activating a Wand of Fireballs is using the "Use Magic Item" action, not a spellcasting action, so doesn't count as actually casting, but that stuff is historically ambiguous.
From a logical standpoint the magic has to come from somewhere, flow through something, and then it is brought to life. To me this is the fundamental use of magic being spelled out.
When you have a spell scroll it is a written instruction of casting a spell. Just because you can read it doesn't suddenly make you an expert on how it works. If you do something wrong or misinterpret something I would assume things won't work, or might be a magical disaster. In theory, if you are a moderate student of an art lets call it (Nuclear Science) if you read someone's theory of how to create nuclear fusion you could reasonably follow the described steps and would have a much greater success rate of figuring it out. *However, if you have no background in Nuclear Science, you success rate and chance of mistake should be much higher.
To go into the spell focus. Realize this is just your conduit of magic. In the case of the artificer you need to focus your magic through a device in order to make it even work properly. As your expertise increases you have figured out how to tweak that focus in order to make it more efficient or increased. In order to use a spell scroll, the scroll itself is the focus. It does not require additional focus to make it work.
However, this is a missed opportunity for the character after careful experimentation to figure out how to enhance the spell scroll, or to make it more efficient. This leaves room for the story teller to establish concepts and/or ideas that could enhance the story or flesh out the characters by adding this into their story/game. Just my 2 cents.
Edit add: If you think about the basic mechanics of most games how many times does a character have multiple wands or scroll with unlimited charges to experiment and tweak a spell. Most players will find scroll, use scroll. Find scroll, use scroll. But without observing and recording using that scroll with different ideas they never really get a chance to tweak it to better use. However, you could try to experiment on the spot with your story teller and see how they would want to handle the outcome of said experiment.
I added some bold and italics styling for emphasis.
Spellcasting
1st-level artificer feature
You’ve studied the workings of magic and how to cast spells, channeling the magic through objects. To observers, you don’t appear to be casting spells in a conventional way; you appear to produce wonders from mundane items and outlandish inventions.
Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an “M” component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way.
<snip>
Arcane Firearm
5th-level Artillerist feature
You know how to turn a wand, staff, or rod into an arcane firearm, a conduit for your destructive spells. When you finish a long rest, you can use woodcarver’s tools to carve special sigils into a wand, staff, or rod and thereby turn it into your arcane firearm. The sigils disappear from the object if you later carve them on a different item. The sigils otherwise last indefinitely.
You can use your arcane firearm as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. When you cast an artificer spell through the firearm, roll a d8, and you gain a bonus to one of the spell’s damage rolls equal to the number rolled.
To draw it out explicitly, it's saying that you cast "through" your spellcasting foci, that this looks different from normal spellcasting, and (later) that you use an arcane firearm as such a focus.
It does not.As you said, it says you:
Channel through objects, not cast through foci.
Produce spell effects through tools, not cast through foci.
Neither of these establish in any way that "casting" through your AF means using it as a focus, and there is no other rule you quoted saying that you cast through your spellcasting foci. Neither channeling nor producing spell effects is casting (the latter not being casting is absolutely crucial to a variety of other game rules, including but not limited to an Artificer's SSI).
While I am always open to being wrong, I am extremely confident, after quite a lot of investigating, that casting through an object isn't defined anywhere in any rulebook. There are exactly 2 rulebooks I know of that even use the phrase, although there might be more I don't know about: Tasha's and Van Richten's. Neither one defines the concept.
Note the Van Richten's relevance: whatever it means to cast through an object, Spirits Bards can do it, so it's fallacious to claim that any rule unique to Artificers is relevant to figuring out what it means.
Produce spell effects through tools, not cast through foci.
Neither of these establish in any way that "casting" through your AF means using it as a focus, and there is no other rule you quoted saying that you cast through your spellcasting foci.
Incorrect. The second sentence under "tools required" is "[y]ou must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature..." The whole "Spellcasting" section is describing how you cast spells, and uses some new-ish non-technical language (fundamentally basic english) to describe it. This includes the "through an object" phrasing. It's not even a particularly unique way of phrasing spellcasting (see your note about Van Richten's).
From a logical standpoint the magic has to come from somewhere, flow through something, and then it is brought to life. To me this is the fundamental use of magic being spelled out.
When you have a spell scroll it is a written instruction of casting a spell. Just because you can read it doesn't suddenly make you an expert on how it works. If you do something wrong or misinterpret something I would assume things won't work, or might be a magical disaster. In theory, if you are a moderate student of an art lets call it (Nuclear Science) if you read someone's theory of how to create nuclear fusion you could reasonably follow the described steps and would have a much greater success rate of figuring it out. *However, if you have no background in Nuclear Science, you success rate and chance of mistake should be much higher.
To go into the spell focus. Realize this is just your conduit of magic. In the case of the artificer you need to focus your magic through a device in order to make it even work properly. As your expertise increases you have figured out how to tweak that focus in order to make it more efficient or increased. In order to use a spell scroll, the scroll itself is the focus. It does not require additional focus to make it work.
However, this is a missed opportunity for the character after careful experimentation to figure out how to enhance the spell scroll, or to make it more efficient. This leaves room for the story teller to establish concepts and/or ideas that could enhance the story or flesh out the characters by adding this into their story/game. Just my 2 cents.
Edit add: If you think about the basic mechanics of most games how many times does a character have multiple wands or scroll with unlimited charges to experiment and tweak a spell. Most players will find scroll, use scroll. Find scroll, use scroll. But without observing and recording using that scroll with different ideas they never really get a chance to tweak it to better use. However, you could try to experiment on the spot with your story teller and see how they would want to handle the outcome of said experiment.
I like this idea, especially in relation to how the Artificer class casts spells through tinkering and gadgets and manipulating mundane objects -- it's implied by the description of how the spellcasting works in TCoE, but also in these apparently open-ended descriptions of the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion and the Arcane Firearm feature which do not tie casting spells using those objects to the expending of a spell slot (as noted by more than one commenter). So if a player can put an argument forward by way of role-playing/storytelling how the character uses their features/gear (again this seems implied by the Artificer descriptions), it certainly could be up to the DM. Though I would love to hear from any at WotC who wrote the Artificer class to get a handle on what the spirit of the rules are with these particular descriptions the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion and Arcane Firearm feature in relation to Artificer spellcasting.
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Hi I'm looking for guidance on an Artillerist using the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion + Arcane Firearm Feature ... can the benefits/bonuses of such an AF be used when casting spells from a spell scroll? It's my understanding that no material components are required to cast a spell scroll since they are provided in the creation of the scroll (DMG). But since all artificers require M to cast a spell (TCoE), I am wondering if this is a case of specific rules (artificer spell casting rules) overruling the general rule (casting spells from scrolls). Please advise, and thanks!
Yes, certainly.
Outside of a house rule from your DM, AF has no interaction with M components other than that your AF can be used as a spellcasting focus. While it's undefined in the rules (and hence up to your DM) what it means to "cast an artificer spell through the firearm", certainly there are no rules on spell scrolls preventing you from doing so.
Cool -- thanks for replying -- makes sense!
quindraco is incorrect. What it means to cast a spell through your arcane firearm is to use it as a spellcasting focus for that spell. When you cast a spell from a spell scroll, you provide no material components, so spellcasting foci do not interact with that casting.
Thanks! That's how I originally interpreted the rules by what's written in the DMG regarding spell scrolls. But I wasn't sure, because the Artificer class is singular in that M is required (through tools, enhanced AF and/or Arcane firearm) for the casting of Artificer spells. So I thought this might be a case of specific beats general in terms of rules. The language used around the arcane firearm and the enhanced arcane focus suggests that it could be interpreted as quindraco has. The Arcane Firearm feature says "when you cast an artificer spell through the firearm," so that made me wonder about any spell that's on the Artificer list cast using a spell slot or otherwise. Also, the enhanced Arcane Focus infusion says "when holding this item, a creature gains a +1 bonus to spell attack rolls" without specifying that it's in tandem with using a spell slot, so it could be interpreted to mean any spell cast while holding the AF.
Yea I have to agree. While the sentence uses the word "can" that is clearly a reference to the fact that you can cast without using the Firearm, no that you can use the Firearm in any other way.
This section is the only part with rules for using the Firearm, the rest is how you create it (and the look of it and the longevity and such). The Firearm is a Foci and thus is used as a Foci normally would be.
I get this reading. What about the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion, though? It reads that the creature "holding it" can take +1 bonus to spell attack rolls and ignore 1/2 cover. Do you think this benefit applies only to spells cast using a spell slot or to any spell attack roll made while the AF is in hand?
Yes and no.
I agree that scrolls don't work with the Arcane Firearm because I don't think it makes sense to cast from a scroll through your arcane firearm.
However, it is possible to make a magic wand/rod/staff into an Arcane Firearm (hence why it still works with Enhanced Arcane Focus) and something like the Wand of Fireballs explicitly lets you cast spells from the magic item. RAW that spell does not require material components when it's cast from a magic item which based on your logic would disqualify it from benefiting from the boost granted by Arcane Firearm even if that wand itself were made into the Artillerist's Arcane Firearm.
The way I'd look at it is where does the spell come from?
If the spell comes from the Artificer using the firearm as a focus it is cast through the firearm.
If the spell comes from the firearm itself then it is cast through the firearm.
If the spell comes from a different source and the firearm is not used as a focus then it is not cast through the firearm.
Yeah, casting a spell from a wand that happens to be your arcane firearm is not casting a spell through it. "Through" definitionally requires that the source be external to the thing. I'm extremely comfortable saying that the fireball spell you cast from that wand of fireballs doesn't get the additional d8.
Through is a nuanced word with multiple meanings.
By definintion 1 ("into at one side or point and out at another") you are correct.
But I'm thinking of it as definition 2, "by means of."
In that sense it still works when the spell comes from inside the wand.
Citation, please. I'll wait.
I added some bold and italics styling for emphasis.
To draw it out explicitly, it's saying that you cast "through" your spellcasting foci, that this looks different from normal spellcasting, and (later) that you use an arcane firearm as such a focus.
BTW, I'd say it's clear that casting from a scroll doesn't benefit from the firearm. Given that most wands (the type with charges used to for an actual spell) refer to using as using a charge to "cast the spell," and the firearm say anything about it needing to be from your artificer spell slots, I'd say it's reasonable for a DM to rule that it works with the firearm bonus damage, provided it's an artificer spell (including the artillerist-specific ones like Fireball). But I also wouldn't fault a DM for ruling otherwise. EDIT: the other, possibly more clear ruling is that activating a Wand of Fireballs is using the "Use Magic Item" action, not a spellcasting action, so doesn't count as actually casting, but that stuff is historically ambiguous.
From a logical standpoint the magic has to come from somewhere, flow through something, and then it is brought to life. To me this is the fundamental use of magic being spelled out.
When you have a spell scroll it is a written instruction of casting a spell. Just because you can read it doesn't suddenly make you an expert on how it works. If you do something wrong or misinterpret something I would assume things won't work, or might be a magical disaster. In theory, if you are a moderate student of an art lets call it (Nuclear Science) if you read someone's theory of how to create nuclear fusion you could reasonably follow the described steps and would have a much greater success rate of figuring it out. *However, if you have no background in Nuclear Science, you success rate and chance of mistake should be much higher.
To go into the spell focus. Realize this is just your conduit of magic. In the case of the artificer you need to focus your magic through a device in order to make it even work properly. As your expertise increases you have figured out how to tweak that focus in order to make it more efficient or increased. In order to use a spell scroll, the scroll itself is the focus. It does not require additional focus to make it work.
However, this is a missed opportunity for the character after careful experimentation to figure out how to enhance the spell scroll, or to make it more efficient. This leaves room for the story teller to establish concepts and/or ideas that could enhance the story or flesh out the characters by adding this into their story/game. Just my 2 cents.
Edit add: If you think about the basic mechanics of most games how many times does a character have multiple wands or scroll with unlimited charges to experiment and tweak a spell. Most players will find scroll, use scroll. Find scroll, use scroll. But without observing and recording using that scroll with different ideas they never really get a chance to tweak it to better use. However, you could try to experiment on the spot with your story teller and see how they would want to handle the outcome of said experiment.
I am not sure what my Spirit Animal is. But whatever that thing is, I am pretty sure it has rabies!
It does not. As you said, it says you:
Neither of these establish in any way that "casting" through your AF means using it as a focus, and there is no other rule you quoted saying that you cast through your spellcasting foci. Neither channeling nor producing spell effects is casting (the latter not being casting is absolutely crucial to a variety of other game rules, including but not limited to an Artificer's SSI).
While I am always open to being wrong, I am extremely confident, after quite a lot of investigating, that casting through an object isn't defined anywhere in any rulebook. There are exactly 2 rulebooks I know of that even use the phrase, although there might be more I don't know about: Tasha's and Van Richten's. Neither one defines the concept.
Note the Van Richten's relevance: whatever it means to cast through an object, Spirits Bards can do it, so it's fallacious to claim that any rule unique to Artificers is relevant to figuring out what it means.
Incorrect. The second sentence under "tools required" is "[y]ou must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature..." The whole "Spellcasting" section is describing how you cast spells, and uses some new-ish non-technical language (fundamentally basic english) to describe it. This includes the "through an object" phrasing. It's not even a particularly unique way of phrasing spellcasting (see your note about Van Richten's).
I like this idea, especially in relation to how the Artificer class casts spells through tinkering and gadgets and manipulating mundane objects -- it's implied by the description of how the spellcasting works in TCoE, but also in these apparently open-ended descriptions of the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion and the Arcane Firearm feature which do not tie casting spells using those objects to the expending of a spell slot (as noted by more than one commenter). So if a player can put an argument forward by way of role-playing/storytelling how the character uses their features/gear (again this seems implied by the Artificer descriptions), it certainly could be up to the DM. Though I would love to hear from any at WotC who wrote the Artificer class to get a handle on what the spirit of the rules are with these particular descriptions the Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion and Arcane Firearm feature in relation to Artificer spellcasting.