My wizard is working the backline and is wanting to cast mold earth to pick up the earth, the minions run in and drop the earth on top of them, burying them...doable?
Not very practical. Most creatures are unlikely to jump in a ditch on purpose and any dirt you move will move along the ground so you can't dump it on someone either.
It's possible, but it has to be something that you set up ahead of time and plan for. Mold Earth is great if you get some time to arrange things, but it's really hard to use offensively in the midst of battle.
My wizard is working the backline and is wanting to cast mold earth to pick up the earth, the minions run in and drop the earth on top of them, burying them...doable?
Barely doable, not practical. You would have to get the enemies to stop in the ditch.
So, to go into further detail, my wizard is hiding (with a nat 20) on top of a parapet and has a held action - as soon as he sees the enemy he will cast mold earth underneath them, causing them to fall, and dropping the earth on top of them. I was looking for a new way to use the cantrip.
I don't think that would work in a single turn. Mold Earth states that you can move the extracted earth up to 5 feet away with a single casting. You would need to move the full 5 feet of earth fully out of a space to have a creature fall into it, lowering them 5 feet into the ground. However, you wouldn't be able to move that same earth back into that space in the same round to bury them... by the time your next turn comes around, they would have been able to easily extract themselves from the hole, and at best you spent 5 feet of their movement..
The only way that could work was if you were playing as a sorcerer with the Quickened Spell metamagic, allowing you to cast Mold Earth twice in one turn (or have a second spell caster also use their turn to cast Mold Earth). It's then up to the DM on how that would play out... I'd imagine the target would have to make an athletics check of some kind to dig themselves out. Shorter creatures would also essentially be drowning during that time as well.
So yes, your plan could work, but not for a solitary wizard.
The spell description is clear that the movement itself hasn’t enough force to cause damage, so there’d be no damage from dropping the dirt on top of the enemy.
As for burying them, the closest mentioned effect is turning it into difficult terrain (which is a good benchmark for how useful the cantrip should be balance-wise). I might go a bit further because it’s clever and rule the enemy prone, forcing them to spend half their movement to climb out. But I’d never allow a cantrip to bury someone alive and suffocate them to death.
Honestly, that's fair. This is one of those cantrips that really depends on DM interpretation. My theorizing was based on the idea that it's essentially just dropping a cube of loose earth onto a person in a 5 foot deep hole. There are some things that would logically happen in that scenario if you focus on simulating real life physics, but for the purposes of a game it can unbalance things in a weird way.
Yeah, the thing you're asking about would require a lot more advance planning to be truly effective. As a side note, burying spears pointed up in a ravine that you dig with Mold Earth and then hide with MIllusion or Silent Image would be a much more reliable trap.
RAW it states that the effect is instantaneous, that means if you dug out the ground under their feet they would instantly fall because, also RAW, as stated in the rules for falling, any creature who would fall because of the ground disappearing does so instantly, this is considered forced movement. As for the dirt not having enough force to cause damage, that still works. As the dirt moves instantly to the spot on the ground that you pick up to 5 feet away, this would also cause forced movement, like enlarge or any othe spell that might cause two things to occupy the same space, it would shunt anything out of that space, the dm would have to decide whether the 5 ft fall calls for a check or saving throw to decide if they "trip" and fall prone. If you put the dirt directly in front of the hole they would need to make a check to climb as per movement rules, either out to the side or over the now 10 ft wall. And in your situation, with a surprise round, you could do this, and depending on rolls, you could possibly succeed in two turns. A sorcerer with quickening could possibly do it in one turn. As this all follows RAW and would be super cool, I would totally allow this, however, if you wanted to restrain them I'd say it's a strength check against your spell dc and counts as concentration, or even as your action every round, if you wish to hold them there, otherwise an action and strength check of like 10 to just get out. This is a cool way of magically grappling someone, and personally, I would treat it as such. It is no more or less broken than a grappler build.
Because Mold Earth is instanteneous, targeting 5-foot cube of loose earth to instantaneously excavate it and deposit it where it was would not cause the creature above it to fall and be entombed as the earth would be deposited before it start falling into the excavation.
If you want to bury a creature in an existing hole, depositing such ammount of loose earth on it, while certainly quite heavy, still wouldn't do damage. DM would have to adjucate what it takes to dig itself out of it, ex. taking extra 5 feet from difficult terrain, half or full movement, action etc,
So, to go into further detail, my wizard is hiding (with a nat 20) on top of a parapet and has a held action - as soon as he sees the enemy he will cast mold earth underneath them, causing them to fall, and dropping the earth on top of them. I was looking for a new way to use the cantrip.
Read the spell again. It says very clearly what it can do. I'm guessing that you tried this in a game and the DM said no
So, to go into further detail, my wizard is hiding (with a nat 20) on top of a parapet and has a held action - as soon as he sees the enemy he will cast mold earth underneath them, causing them to fall, and dropping the earth on top of them. I was looking for a new way to use the cantrip.
Read the spell again. It says very clearly what it can do. I'm guessing that you tried this in a game and the DM said no
You can do all of these things. You just can't do them all at once.
You can excavate a hole 5ft deep. Action. That's not deep enough to actually bury anyone standing up, so you could even excavate it 5ft deeper. Another action. We're 10ft deep now so anyone standing in this pit will get actually buried if we refill it. So you could refill it halfway now. Action #3. Then fill it back all the way. Action 4.
But getting an enemy to walk into a 10ft pit after patiently waiting 2 turns, and then just standing there as they get slowly buried over another 2 turns isn't going to be a super common occurrence.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Where it states that the effect is instantaneous, it's also down to the DM to decide just what that means. Does it teleport the earth, or does it move the earth out of the way? If you play it that it's literally instantaneous, then the effect is teleportation. That's not really how I see Mold Earth working.
Consider that fireball is Instantaneous, but states: A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.
The spell happens instantly, and the effect takes a small enough time to occur that it does not move into another turn, but there has to be some DM interpretation because even if it takes milliseconds for the bright streak to travel to the point you choose, and for the the fire to blossom - implying visible movement - there is a period of time in which things happen.
Mold Earth doesn't say it teleport the earth so its done rapidly i guess since it says the excavated earth move it along the ground before being deposited. I could envision cartoon like rapid excavation loll
Instantaneous duration has no precise timing other than existing only for an instant. Sage Advice clarify The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes.
If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
So okay, you instantly create a hole 5 ft deep under someone and then deposit the earth back within 5 ft gently enough to do no damage. Your turn over. Their turn - they jump out again and move away, shooting you with a spell or ranged weapon as you have broken stealth by casting a spell.
or - for some reason they stay still, you try to excavate another 5ft hole under them - but you can only move the earth 5ft, and it has to be along the ground so you can't levitate it up above them and drop it back down, so your spell fails,
So okay, you instantly create a hole 5 ft deep under someone and then deposit the earth back within 5 ft gently enough to do no damage. Your turn over. Their turn - they jump out again and move away, shooting you with a spell or ranged weapon as you have broken stealth by casting a spell.
An argument could be made that if you're moving the 5ft cube of earth someone is standing on, that they could go with it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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My wizard is working the backline and is wanting to cast mold earth to pick up the earth, the minions run in and drop the earth on top of them, burying them...doable?
Not very practical. Most creatures are unlikely to jump in a ditch on purpose and any dirt you move will move along the ground so you can't dump it on someone either.
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It's possible, but it has to be something that you set up ahead of time and plan for. Mold Earth is great if you get some time to arrange things, but it's really hard to use offensively in the midst of battle.
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Burying who? Maybe provide a few more details of what you are imagining would happen.
Barely doable, not practical. You would have to get the enemies to stop in the ditch.
So, to go into further detail, my wizard is hiding (with a nat 20) on top of a parapet and has a held action - as soon as he sees the enemy he will cast mold earth underneath them, causing them to fall, and dropping the earth on top of them. I was looking for a new way to use the cantrip.
I don't think that would work in a single turn. Mold Earth states that you can move the extracted earth up to 5 feet away with a single casting. You would need to move the full 5 feet of earth fully out of a space to have a creature fall into it, lowering them 5 feet into the ground. However, you wouldn't be able to move that same earth back into that space in the same round to bury them... by the time your next turn comes around, they would have been able to easily extract themselves from the hole, and at best you spent 5 feet of their movement..
The only way that could work was if you were playing as a sorcerer with the Quickened Spell metamagic, allowing you to cast Mold Earth twice in one turn (or have a second spell caster also use their turn to cast Mold Earth). It's then up to the DM on how that would play out... I'd imagine the target would have to make an athletics check of some kind to dig themselves out. Shorter creatures would also essentially be drowning during that time as well.
So yes, your plan could work, but not for a solitary wizard.
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The spell description is clear that the movement itself hasn’t enough force to cause damage, so there’d be no damage from dropping the dirt on top of the enemy.
As for burying them, the closest mentioned effect is turning it into difficult terrain (which is a good benchmark for how useful the cantrip should be balance-wise). I might go a bit further because it’s clever and rule the enemy prone, forcing them to spend half their movement to climb out. But I’d never allow a cantrip to bury someone alive and suffocate them to death.
Honestly, that's fair. This is one of those cantrips that really depends on DM interpretation. My theorizing was based on the idea that it's essentially just dropping a cube of loose earth onto a person in a 5 foot deep hole. There are some things that would logically happen in that scenario if you focus on simulating real life physics, but for the purposes of a game it can unbalance things in a weird way.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! It is greatly appreciated.
Yeah, the thing you're asking about would require a lot more advance planning to be truly effective. As a side note, burying spears pointed up in a ravine that you dig with Mold Earth and then hide with MIllusion or Silent Image would be a much more reliable trap.
RAW it states that the effect is instantaneous, that means if you dug out the ground under their feet they would instantly fall because, also RAW, as stated in the rules for falling, any creature who would fall because of the ground disappearing does so instantly, this is considered forced movement. As for the dirt not having enough force to cause damage, that still works. As the dirt moves instantly to the spot on the ground that you pick up to 5 feet away, this would also cause forced movement, like enlarge or any othe spell that might cause two things to occupy the same space, it would shunt anything out of that space, the dm would have to decide whether the 5 ft fall calls for a check or saving throw to decide if they "trip" and fall prone. If you put the dirt directly in front of the hole they would need to make a check to climb as per movement rules, either out to the side or over the now 10 ft wall. And in your situation, with a surprise round, you could do this, and depending on rolls, you could possibly succeed in two turns. A sorcerer with quickening could possibly do it in one turn. As this all follows RAW and would be super cool, I would totally allow this, however, if you wanted to restrain them I'd say it's a strength check against your spell dc and counts as concentration, or even as your action every round, if you wish to hold them there, otherwise an action and strength check of like 10 to just get out. This is a cool way of magically grappling someone, and personally, I would treat it as such. It is no more or less broken than a grappler build.
Because Mold Earth is instanteneous, targeting 5-foot cube of loose earth to instantaneously excavate it and deposit it where it was would not cause the creature above it to fall and be entombed as the earth would be deposited before it start falling into the excavation.
If you want to bury a creature in an existing hole, depositing such ammount of loose earth on it, while certainly quite heavy, still wouldn't do damage. DM would have to adjucate what it takes to dig itself out of it, ex. taking extra 5 feet from difficult terrain, half or full movement, action etc,
Read the spell again. It says very clearly what it can do. I'm guessing that you tried this in a game and the DM said no
You can do all of these things. You just can't do them all at once.
You can excavate a hole 5ft deep. Action. That's not deep enough to actually bury anyone standing up, so you could even excavate it 5ft deeper. Another action. We're 10ft deep now so anyone standing in this pit will get actually buried if we refill it. So you could refill it halfway now. Action #3. Then fill it back all the way. Action 4.
But getting an enemy to walk into a 10ft pit after patiently waiting 2 turns, and then just standing there as they get slowly buried over another 2 turns isn't going to be a super common occurrence.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Where it states that the effect is instantaneous, it's also down to the DM to decide just what that means. Does it teleport the earth, or does it move the earth out of the way? If you play it that it's literally instantaneous, then the effect is teleportation. That's not really how I see Mold Earth working.
Consider that fireball is Instantaneous, but states: A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.
The spell happens instantly, and the effect takes a small enough time to occur that it does not move into another turn, but there has to be some DM interpretation because even if it takes milliseconds for the bright streak to travel to the point you choose, and for the the fire to blossom - implying visible movement - there is a period of time in which things happen.
Mold Earth doesn't say it teleport the earth so its done rapidly i guess since it says the excavated earth move it along the ground before being deposited. I could envision cartoon like rapid excavation loll
Instantaneous duration has no precise timing other than existing only for an instant. Sage Advice clarify The magic flares for a split second and then vanishes.
Look at the language in the spell effect
If you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
So okay, you instantly create a hole 5 ft deep under someone and then deposit the earth back within 5 ft gently enough to do no damage. Your turn over. Their turn - they jump out again and move away, shooting you with a spell or ranged weapon as you have broken stealth by casting a spell.
or - for some reason they stay still, you try to excavate another 5ft hole under them - but you can only move the earth 5ft, and it has to be along the ground so you can't levitate it up above them and drop it back down, so your spell fails,
An argument could be made that if you're moving the 5ft cube of earth someone is standing on, that they could go with it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.