Ok I was looking for spells to add to my wizard when I can across Phantom Steed. The spell summons a Horse-like creature that uses the Riding Horse (Which is a Beast) stat block except for the fact that it has an 100ft. walking speed. So because it is technically a Riding Horse can my Druid Wild Shape into a Phantom Steed and become a speedy boy?
Ok I was looking for spells to add to my wizard when I can across Phantom Steed. The spell summons a Horse-like creature that uses the Riding Horse (Which is a Beast) stat block except for the fact that it has an 100ft. walking speed. So because it is technically a Riding Horse can my Druid Wild Shape into a Phantom Steed and become a speedy boy?
It's not a riding horse, but because it uses the statistics of one, which means it has the Beast type, this is the same "ask your DM" situation as trying to Wild Shape into a swarm (where no rule in the book prevents it but it's fairly obvious you should ask your DM). The primary argument in your favor is that Wild Shape is primarily restricted by CR and walking speed is irrelevant to CR, so a 100' speed horse is well within Wild Shape's limits.
The spell Phantom Steed explicitly describes the phantom steed as a creature and, additionally, it says to use the Riding Horse statblock but doesn't modify the creature type (normally when spells modify the creature type, it explicitly mentions it, see Find Familiar), implying that the phantom steed has the same creature type as a Riding Horse, IE large beast.
RAW, I'm not sure there is anything stopping you. I'm reasonably sure that this isn't RAI, though. I'd certainly object (if I were in the design discussions on these spells and abilities, I'm not the kind to get aggravated over this in a game) if my Druid could be become a phantom steed but not an Owlbear. I think it's just an oversight that they didn't change the creature type to illusion.
My way out, as a DM, would be that it says it's a quasi-real, which implies that it's not real. Nothing RAW says it has to be real though, but I'd argue that it's axiomatic. It ultimately comes down to DM fiat.
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Interestingly, this is starting to parallel other questions, like can Druid A wildshape into, say, a deer, in front of Druid B, who has never seen a deer, and thus teach them how to be a deer? In both cases, a Druid is seeing something that really isn't that thing. Is merely seeing what a thing looks like enough for them to obtain the ability to become it? Or is there something else going on that requires a "true form" to be present?
I've not heard of an answer to that and so as far as I know, that's a table ruling. However, I think that's the fundamental question being asked here. Someone fancy asking JC about these? I'd have thought that it would have been asked by now, but a quick search (learning wildshapes from another Druid) turns up a lot of opinions, but no references to JC.
Note: this post is a discussion of RAI and how we should rule at the table, not RAW, which I think is subject to omission on this point and doesn't follow this kind of logic anyhow).
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You can argue otherwise, but it's pretty clear that the intent is no. Phantom steed creates a magically exceptional riding horse, but when a druid wild shapes, they turn into an average (monster manual) example.
If a druid were to ask the DM if they could transform into a phantom steed, the answer should be "sure, use the stat block of a riding horse as is."
Phantom Steed says it creates a "quasi-real, horselike creature" (emphasis mine). It does not say it creates a Beast (which is required for Wildshape) and it uses the "statistics of a Riding Horse" NOT the stat block. This seems minor, but I think it has the implication that it does not get the types, just the statistics.
So, I would argue that the PS is not a beast at all, making it invalid for Wildshape.
Statistics and stat block are synonyms, and creature type is a statistic.
You can argue otherwise, but it's pretty clear that the intent is no. Phantom steed creates a magically exceptional riding horse, but when a druid wild shapes, they turn into an average (monster manual) example.
If a druid were to ask the DM if they could transform into a phantom steed, the answer should be "sure, use the stat block of a riding horse as is."
I came here to say exactly this but couldn't find it in the text of Wild Shape (or Polymorph for that matter) so I wasn't sure if I was remembering something from previous editions.
You can argue otherwise, but it's pretty clear that the intent is no. Phantom steed creates a magically exceptional riding horse, but when a druid wild shapes, they turn into an average (monster manual) example.
If a druid were to ask the DM if they could transform into a phantom steed, the answer should be "sure, use the stat block of a riding horse as is."
I came here to say exactly this but couldn't find it in the text of Wild Shape (or Polymorph for that matter) so I wasn't sure if I was remembering something from previous editions.
It's actually from shapechange, but I too thought that exact terminology was in all of these types of effect. Anyway, I stand by what I think the intention is on this.
Taking the position "I can wild shape into any stat block that has the beast type" has some problematic implications. Some monsters like onyx, and the new summoned beast stat block, or even swarms for that matter, really aren't designed to be valid choices for Wild Shape.
Taking the position "I can wild shape into any stat block that has the beast type" has some problematic implications. Some monsters like onyx, and the new summoned beast stat block, or even swarms for that matter, really aren't designed to be valid choices for Wild Shape.
With Onyx, I think you have to remember that the "statblock" for the creature is a creation of D&D Beyond, not the actual printed material (which is what the rules are based on). wild shaping into Onyx would result into the PC turning into a regular cat as the boosts to stats are listed in the printed material as conditions of the specific combat encounter (the PCs are shrunk, so the normal cat seems huge, fast, and powerful but actually isn't). Likewise with the summoned beast, a lot of statistics are based in part on the level of the spell cast...if you wildshape into the summon, you would have a spell level of null (or 0), so any stat boosted by the spell level would not gain any boost at all (this also eliminates the creatures multiattack)...is it allowable? possibly...is it optimal? definitely not. Swarms can be dealt with by saying that the statblock doesn't say "beast" it says "swarm of (size) beasts". wild shape does not allow transformation into plural creatures, only singular...its rules lawyer-y, but valid.
With Phantom steed, you could say they turn into the steed, but either they take all of the stat changes of the creature or none. If none, they are a simple riding horse. If all, they get the movement bonus, but also have the time limits and 1 Hitpoint as any damage causes the steed to vanish.
I don't understand your argument if it is that "onyx is a regular cat with some specific circumstantial modifications, but a phantom steed somehow isn't a riding horse with some specific circumstantial modifications."
I don't understand your argument if it is that "onyx is a regular cat with some specific circumstantial modifications, but a phantom steed somehow isn't a riding horse with some specific circumstantial modifications."
Onyx in from Aquisitions Incorporated. The "circumstantial modification" is everything grows in size relative to the players, the players do not know (and the book does not reveal) whether they have got smaller or everything else has got bigger. If the former Onyx is a regular cat, if the later then it is a cat that has been magically enlarged to huge.
Even if you say Oynx is huge it is only huge because of magic, you can no more wild shape into that than into a huge horse because you have seen a horse that a wizard cast enlarge on.
I don't understand your argument if it is that "onyx is a regular cat with some specific circumstantial modifications, but a phantom steed somehow isn't a riding horse with some specific circumstantial modifications."
Because a phantom steed isn't a riding horse with modifications. It's its own creature, that happens to have the same intelligence, dexterity, etc as a Riding Horse but a different speed and health. As a result, rather than replicating the statblock with a few minor changes, they just tell you to use that statblock. It's an editorial decision to save space in your book.
Onyx is explicitly a "regular cat with special traits" that "[w]ithout the special circumstances from that encounter, Onyx can be considered a standard cat".
I'll repeat my position - I don't think you are intended to be able to become a phantom steed, but it was an oversight that they didn't exclude the possibility. As a result, RAW, yes you can, but RAI you can't.
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While I maintain my view that Oynx is either a regular cat or one that has been magically enlarged and therefore not eligible for wildshape (other than wildshape into a regular cat) remember you can only wildshape into a creature you have seen. Even if there exists a huge cat of which Oynx is a example you can only wildshape into it if you have seen it.
Regards Phantom Steed it does not say that it is a beast it is describes as a " quasi-real, horselike creature" while the rules don't specify whether beasts can be quasi real of not I think it is logical to work on the assumption that all beasts are real. At best RAW is unclear whether you can turn into a phantom steed (up to the DM) but I would tend to go on RAW you can not turn into a phantom steed
I don't understand your argument if it is that "onyx is a regular cat with some specific circumstantial modifications, but a phantom steed somehow isn't a riding horse with some specific circumstantial modifications."
Onyx in from Aquisitions Incorporated. The "circumstantial modification" is everything grows in size relative to the players, the players do not know (and the book does not reveal) whether they have got smaller or everything else has got bigger. If the former Onyx is a regular cat, if the later then it is a cat that has been magically enlarged to huge.
Even if you say Oynx is huge it is only huge because of magic, you can no more wild shape into that than into a huge horse because you have seen a horse that a wizard cast enlarge on.
Or a horse that was produced by magic, say a spell, maybe?
Regards Phantom Steed it does not say that it is a beast it is describes as a " quasi-real, horselike creature" while the rules don't specify whether beasts can be quasi real of not I think it is logical to work on the assumption that all beasts are real. At best RAW is unclear whether you can turn into a phantom steed (up to the DM) but I would tend to go on RAW you can not turn into a phantom steed
Yes, it does. It says to use the Riding Horse statblock with some changes, none of which are to the creature type, which is part of the statblock. If a spell etc wants you to change the creature type, it says to do so, as in Find Familiar. Since it doesn't tell you to change it, according to RAW, you keep it the same. Therefore, according to what the rules as written, the phantom steed's creature type is the same as that of a Riding Horse.
So, RAW, what is the phantom steed's creature type? Well, it is, by RAW, a beast. The fluff is irrelevant, it is, as per RAW, a beast. What are the conditions for wildshaping?
- you have to have seen it, which is part of the premise of the question.
- it has to be a beast, which we've established is the case.
- it has to be at most a CR1/4 (for a L2 Druid), which it is because we're told so via its statblock.
There are no other RAW qualifications beyond having the ability to wildshape, which is taken as granted. RAW you can do it. Now, you are free to rule otherwise in your game, I know I would, but that's not RAW.
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Regards Phantom Steed it does not say that it is a beast it is describes as a " quasi-real, horselike creature" while the rules don't specify whether beasts can be quasi real of not I think it is logical to work on the assumption that all beasts are real. At best RAW is unclear whether you can turn into a phantom steed (up to the DM) but I would tend to go on RAW you can not turn into a phantom steed
Yes, it does. It says to use the Riding Horse statblock with some changes, none of which are to the creature type, which is part of the statblock. If a spell etc wants you to change the creature type, it says to do so, as in Find Familiar. Since it doesn't tell you to change it, according to RAW, you keep it the same. Therefore, according to what the rules as written, the phantom steed's creature type is the same as that of a Riding Horse.
So, RAW, what is the phantom steed's creature type? Well, it is, by RAW, a beast. The fluff is irrelevant, it is, as per RAW, a beast. What are the conditions for wildshaping?
- you have to have seen it, which is part of the premise of the question.
- it has to be a beast, which we've established is the case.
- it has to be at most a CR1/4 (for a L2 Druid), which it is because we're told so via its statblock.
There are no other RAW qualifications beyond having the ability to wildshape, which is taken as granted. RAW you can do it. Now, you are free to rule otherwise in your game, I know I would, but that's not RAW.
Then by this exact logic, you are able to Wildshape into an Enlarged Bear if you have seen one before, because it is still a beast, still has the same CR, but not does extra damage and is extra strong. I think that anything created/modified by a spell should not be something to be Wildshaped into.
That's not the same logic. You can wildshape into the bear, because there is a statblock for a bear, not for an enlarged bear. There is no statblock for an enlarged bear because it is not a distinct creature from a bear. A phantom steed has a statblock, and is a distinct creature from a riding horse.
If you really must allow it, then if the Druid takes any damage or stays in this shape for an hour, then they would fade out of existence and cease to be. Because if they get the speed of the Phantom Steed, they should get every other feature too.
Yes, the Druid in wildshape as a phantom steed would have 1HP, it's part of its statblock. No, they woudn't fade out of existence, since that's not what even the spell says, let alone what actually matters, the statblock. The disappearance is an effect of the spell, not the creature.
Also, you need to pay attention to details. I was explicit over multiple posts including the one you quoted that I wouldn't allow it.
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Phantom steed uses the statistics of a riding horse. It is not a riding horse with modified statistics. Read the text.
An enlarged bear is still a bear, but with modified statistics. It's still the same bear, just larger and stronger.
Phantom Steed is not a riding horse with a spell modifying it. It is it's own creature that the editors have said to use the statistics
The two are not comparable in this way.
It doesn't say it fades from existence, read the text. It says it disappears, which is the same language used in Conjure Elemental, by the way. Disappear doesn't mean that it no longer exists. That is an interpretation that you're bring to the table, and therefore isn't RAW. You're welcome to practice it at your table and say that's what happens, but it isn't RAW.
It disappears because of the effect of the spell, not the nature of the beast itself. Elementals don't generally disappear after 1 hour if they're present by virtue of some mechanic other than Conjure Elemental because their appearance and disappearance is due to the spell, not due to some inherent nature of the creature. The same with phantom steed.
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Ok I was looking for spells to add to my wizard when I can across Phantom Steed. The spell summons a Horse-like creature that uses the Riding Horse (Which is a Beast) stat block except for the fact that it has an 100ft. walking speed. So because it is technically a Riding Horse can my Druid Wild Shape into a Phantom Steed and become a speedy boy?
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I would say not. The phantom steed uses the same stat block, but it's not a riding horse; it's a magical creation.
It's not a riding horse, but because it uses the statistics of one, which means it has the Beast type, this is the same "ask your DM" situation as trying to Wild Shape into a swarm (where no rule in the book prevents it but it's fairly obvious you should ask your DM). The primary argument in your favor is that Wild Shape is primarily restricted by CR and walking speed is irrelevant to CR, so a 100' speed horse is well within Wild Shape's limits.
The Phantom Steed is an illusion, not a creature, so it shouldn't be a valid Wild Shape form any more than a Silent Image of a wolf would be.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The spell Phantom Steed explicitly describes the phantom steed as a creature and, additionally, it says to use the Riding Horse statblock but doesn't modify the creature type (normally when spells modify the creature type, it explicitly mentions it, see Find Familiar), implying that the phantom steed has the same creature type as a Riding Horse, IE large beast.
RAW, I'm not sure there is anything stopping you. I'm reasonably sure that this isn't RAI, though. I'd certainly object (if I were in the design discussions on these spells and abilities, I'm not the kind to get aggravated over this in a game) if my Druid could be become a phantom steed but not an Owlbear. I think it's just an oversight that they didn't change the creature type to illusion.
My way out, as a DM, would be that it says it's a quasi-real, which implies that it's not real. Nothing RAW says it has to be real though, but I'd argue that it's axiomatic. It ultimately comes down to DM fiat.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Interestingly, this is starting to parallel other questions, like can Druid A wildshape into, say, a deer, in front of Druid B, who has never seen a deer, and thus teach them how to be a deer? In both cases, a Druid is seeing something that really isn't that thing. Is merely seeing what a thing looks like enough for them to obtain the ability to become it? Or is there something else going on that requires a "true form" to be present?
I've not heard of an answer to that and so as far as I know, that's a table ruling. However, I think that's the fundamental question being asked here. Someone fancy asking JC about these? I'd have thought that it would have been asked by now, but a quick search (learning wildshapes from another Druid) turns up a lot of opinions, but no references to JC.
Note: this post is a discussion of RAI and how we should rule at the table, not RAW, which I think is subject to omission on this point and doesn't follow this kind of logic anyhow).
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You can argue otherwise, but it's pretty clear that the intent is no. Phantom steed creates a magically exceptional riding horse, but when a druid wild shapes, they turn into an average (monster manual) example.
If a druid were to ask the DM if they could transform into a phantom steed, the answer should be "sure, use the stat block of a riding horse as is."
Statistics and stat block are synonyms, and creature type is a statistic.
I came here to say exactly this but couldn't find it in the text of Wild Shape (or Polymorph for that matter) so I wasn't sure if I was remembering something from previous editions.
It's actually from shapechange, but I too thought that exact terminology was in all of these types of effect. Anyway, I stand by what I think the intention is on this.
Taking the position "I can wild shape into any stat block that has the beast type" has some problematic implications. Some monsters like onyx, and the new summoned beast stat block, or even swarms for that matter, really aren't designed to be valid choices for Wild Shape.
With Onyx, I think you have to remember that the "statblock" for the creature is a creation of D&D Beyond, not the actual printed material (which is what the rules are based on). wild shaping into Onyx would result into the PC turning into a regular cat as the boosts to stats are listed in the printed material as conditions of the specific combat encounter (the PCs are shrunk, so the normal cat seems huge, fast, and powerful but actually isn't). Likewise with the summoned beast, a lot of statistics are based in part on the level of the spell cast...if you wildshape into the summon, you would have a spell level of null (or 0), so any stat boosted by the spell level would not gain any boost at all (this also eliminates the creatures multiattack)...is it allowable? possibly...is it optimal? definitely not. Swarms can be dealt with by saying that the statblock doesn't say "beast" it says "swarm of (size) beasts". wild shape does not allow transformation into plural creatures, only singular...its rules lawyer-y, but valid.
With Phantom steed, you could say they turn into the steed, but either they take all of the stat changes of the creature or none. If none, they are a simple riding horse. If all, they get the movement bonus, but also have the time limits and 1 Hitpoint as any damage causes the steed to vanish.
I don't understand your argument if it is that "onyx is a regular cat with some specific circumstantial modifications, but a phantom steed somehow isn't a riding horse with some specific circumstantial modifications."
Onyx in from Aquisitions Incorporated. The "circumstantial modification" is everything grows in size relative to the players, the players do not know (and the book does not reveal) whether they have got smaller or everything else has got bigger. If the former Onyx is a regular cat, if the later then it is a cat that has been magically enlarged to huge.
Even if you say Oynx is huge it is only huge because of magic, you can no more wild shape into that than into a huge horse because you have seen a horse that a wizard cast enlarge on.
Because a phantom steed isn't a riding horse with modifications. It's its own creature, that happens to have the same intelligence, dexterity, etc as a Riding Horse but a different speed and health. As a result, rather than replicating the statblock with a few minor changes, they just tell you to use that statblock. It's an editorial decision to save space in your book.
Onyx is explicitly a "regular cat with special traits" that "[w]ithout the special circumstances from that encounter, Onyx can be considered a standard cat".
I'll repeat my position - I don't think you are intended to be able to become a phantom steed, but it was an oversight that they didn't exclude the possibility. As a result, RAW, yes you can, but RAI you can't.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
While I maintain my view that Oynx is either a regular cat or one that has been magically enlarged and therefore not eligible for wildshape (other than wildshape into a regular cat) remember you can only wildshape into a creature you have seen. Even if there exists a huge cat of which Oynx is a example you can only wildshape into it if you have seen it.
Regards Phantom Steed it does not say that it is a beast it is describes as a " quasi-real, horselike creature" while the rules don't specify whether beasts can be quasi real of not I think it is logical to work on the assumption that all beasts are real. At best RAW is unclear whether you can turn into a phantom steed (up to the DM) but I would tend to go on RAW you can not turn into a phantom steed
Or a horse that was produced by magic, say a spell, maybe?
Yes, it does. It says to use the Riding Horse statblock with some changes, none of which are to the creature type, which is part of the statblock. If a spell etc wants you to change the creature type, it says to do so, as in Find Familiar. Since it doesn't tell you to change it, according to RAW, you keep it the same. Therefore, according to what the rules as written, the phantom steed's creature type is the same as that of a Riding Horse.
So, RAW, what is the phantom steed's creature type? Well, it is, by RAW, a beast. The fluff is irrelevant, it is, as per RAW, a beast. What are the conditions for wildshaping?
- you have to have seen it, which is part of the premise of the question.
- it has to be a beast, which we've established is the case.
- it has to be at most a CR1/4 (for a L2 Druid), which it is because we're told so via its statblock.
There are no other RAW qualifications beyond having the ability to wildshape, which is taken as granted. RAW you can do it. Now, you are free to rule otherwise in your game, I know I would, but that's not RAW.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's not the same logic. You can wildshape into the bear, because there is a statblock for a bear, not for an enlarged bear. There is no statblock for an enlarged bear because it is not a distinct creature from a bear. A phantom steed has a statblock, and is a distinct creature from a riding horse.
Yes, the Druid in wildshape as a phantom steed would have 1HP, it's part of its statblock. No, they woudn't fade out of existence, since that's not what even the spell says, let alone what actually matters, the statblock. The disappearance is an effect of the spell, not the creature.
Also, you need to pay attention to details. I was explicit over multiple posts including the one you quoted that I wouldn't allow it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Phantom steed uses the statistics of a riding horse. It is not a riding horse with modified statistics. Read the text.
An enlarged bear is still a bear, but with modified statistics. It's still the same bear, just larger and stronger.
Phantom Steed is not a riding horse with a spell modifying it. It is it's own creature that the editors have said to use the statistics
The two are not comparable in this way.
It doesn't say it fades from existence, read the text. It says it disappears, which is the same language used in Conjure Elemental, by the way. Disappear doesn't mean that it no longer exists. That is an interpretation that you're bring to the table, and therefore isn't RAW. You're welcome to practice it at your table and say that's what happens, but it isn't RAW.
It disappears because of the effect of the spell, not the nature of the beast itself. Elementals don't generally disappear after 1 hour if they're present by virtue of some mechanic other than Conjure Elemental because their appearance and disappearance is due to the spell, not due to some inherent nature of the creature. The same with phantom steed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.