First campaign with new DM. I made a Rogue for the campaign. In first combat I learned that he basically has a "you can't hide during combat rule". FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, I argued with my DM at the table, but basically just saying that's like saying a wizard can't use magic in combat, or a barbarian can't use melee attacks in combat...it's kind of what the class does!
He kept saying "it realistically doesn't make sense". But it does! If I break line of sight by getting full cover, I can't be seen (by definition). So the only way the DM's argument makes any sense is if he's saying that it's not realistic that I can't be heard (since being unseen and unheard is what 'hidden' is in the PHB).
(Aside: I've also read that some DM's allow a stealth role in cover, but the moment you leave the cover to fire, you're seen and and your ranged attack is without sneak attack bonus. Huh? So once achieving a 'hidden' state, by going from full cover to 3 quarter cover (for example) I'm instantly and automatically seen by every enemy?! And you're saying your justification is REALISM?! Not to mention, why is Rogue the only class we apply realism to? Or am I to take it a wizard (?) polymorphing a dragon (?) into a whale is realistic?
Obviously since then, reading the rules on this one. I realize the problem: PHB has almost NO rules about stealth, and what rules they have are more confusing than helpful.
I can summarize the rules right here:
-can't hide on an enemy the CAN (present tense) see you
-can't hide in the open
-"hidden" means unseen and unheard (it does NOT mean completely unaware of you)
-when heavily obscured, you can't be seen.
-with skulker feat, you can hide when lightly obscured.
(note that the above taken together, we needn't worry about hiding unless you have the skulker feat as: in the open, you can't hide, if heavily obscured you don't need to hide, and in light obscurity you need skulker feat to hide)
-when you're able to hide is always DM's discretion (isn't the whole game DM's discretion? show me a DM that doesn't use ANY table rules. Like I said, I don't think we'd say "DM's discretion if my DM was using that discretion to say wizards can't use magic in combat. And honestly, I don't see the difference. Sneak is what a rogue does, magic is what a wizard does)
How do any of you play rogue? I don't think I'm going to touch the class until it gets some rules. Like actual rules, not "DM's discretion".
Your biggest evidence for getting your DM to let you do rogue things is that hide is specifically listed as an action you can do in the combat chapter of the rules.
Are there any other combat actions the DM bans? Dodge? Disengage? Attack?!?
Your biggest evidence for getting your DM to let you do rogue things is that hide is specifically listed as an action you can do in the combat chapter of the rules.
Not even just in the combat chapter, but literally in the section titled "Actions in Combat."
You can always show your DM these references in the Sage Advice Compendium official ruling document;
P9: In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
P10: Without a special ability, hiding in combat requires the Hide action.
You can always show your DM these references in the Sage Advice Compendium official ruling document;
P9: In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
P10: Without a special ability, hiding in combat requires the Hide action.
Yes! thanks for reminding me. I think in general the Sage Advice Compendium is an under-utilized resource.
Keep in mind that they added the Steady Aim bonus action in Tasha's to specifically allow a rogue to obtain advantage on one attack (coincidentally enabling sneak attack even if an enemy of the target is not adjacent to them) at the cost of the rogue's movement. Bonus action hide (behind total cover) and shoot is just another way to do the same thing while retaining a bit of extra movement.
However, most DMs will rule that you are no longer hidden if you have to move any more that just popping out of cover to make the attack. I don't know anyone who allows a bonus action hide followed by moving in to make a melee attack for example unless the character is invisible and succeeded on the hide check. The rules explicitly state that creature's are constantly looking around them so if you have to move any significant distance to make the attack you won't be hidden. (This is also the basis for DMs ruling that as soon as you are seen you aren't hidden).
If you happen to be an arcane trickster rogue then using an owl familiar to give you a fly by help action is another way to obtain advantage on your attack roll.
I'd encourage a frank discussion with the GM around how to take advantage of hiding. I am sympathetic to the interpretation that hiding has prerequisites like being obscured that aren't always available in combat. However, the rogue's cunning action is a feature designed to take advantage of being able to hide. You're right that without access to it, rogues are less effective full stop. Either there's a middle ground to be found, or you should switch classes if you want to remain part of this adventure...
Swashbuckler Rogue doesn't need to hide, I've been playing one from level 2-15 in a campaign and have only hidden in combat... once? I think. While yes, hiding is an important feature of rogue it is not strictly required - in fact thinking about it, most rogue subclasses give an option to get sneak attacks without hiding.
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First campaign with new DM. I made a Rogue for the campaign. In first combat I learned that he basically has a "you can't hide during combat rule". FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, I argued with my DM at the table, but basically just saying that's like saying a wizard can't use magic in combat, or a barbarian can't use melee attacks in combat...it's kind of what the class does!
He kept saying "it realistically doesn't make sense". But it does! If I break line of sight by getting full cover, I can't be seen (by definition). So the only way the DM's argument makes any sense is if he's saying that it's not realistic that I can't be heard (since being unseen and unheard is what 'hidden' is in the PHB).
(Aside: I've also read that some DM's allow a stealth role in cover, but the moment you leave the cover to fire, you're seen and and your ranged attack is without sneak attack bonus. Huh? So once achieving a 'hidden' state, by going from full cover to 3 quarter cover (for example) I'm instantly and automatically seen by every enemy?! And you're saying your justification is REALISM?! Not to mention, why is Rogue the only class we apply realism to? Or am I to take it a wizard (?) polymorphing a dragon (?) into a whale is realistic?
Obviously since then, reading the rules on this one. I realize the problem: PHB has almost NO rules about stealth, and what rules they have are more confusing than helpful.
I can summarize the rules right here:
-can't hide on an enemy the CAN (present tense) see you
-can't hide in the open
-"hidden" means unseen and unheard (it does NOT mean completely unaware of you)
-when heavily obscured, you can't be seen.
-with skulker feat, you can hide when lightly obscured.
(note that the above taken together, we needn't worry about hiding unless you have the skulker feat as: in the open, you can't hide, if heavily obscured you don't need to hide, and in light obscurity you need skulker feat to hide)
-when you're able to hide is always DM's discretion (isn't the whole game DM's discretion? show me a DM that doesn't use ANY table rules. Like I said, I don't think we'd say "DM's discretion if my DM was using that discretion to say wizards can't use magic in combat. And honestly, I don't see the difference. Sneak is what a rogue does, magic is what a wizard does)
How do any of you play rogue? I don't think I'm going to touch the class until it gets some rules. Like actual rules, not "DM's discretion".
Your biggest evidence for getting your DM to let you do rogue things is that hide is specifically listed as an action you can do in the combat chapter of the rules.
Are there any other combat actions the DM bans? Dodge? Disengage? Attack?!?
Not even just in the combat chapter, but literally in the section titled "Actions in Combat."
Lol, didn't even think of that! Thanks.
At this point it's not about right or wrong with my DM. It's not his fault the PHB has totally inadequate rules, right?
thanks again though.
The details for when it is appropriate to hide are completely missing true, but whatever those details are we know that combat isn't a factor.
You can always show your DM these references in the Sage Advice Compendium official ruling document;
Yes! thanks for reminding me. I think in general the Sage Advice Compendium is an under-utilized resource.
Keep in mind that they added the Steady Aim bonus action in Tasha's to specifically allow a rogue to obtain advantage on one attack (coincidentally enabling sneak attack even if an enemy of the target is not adjacent to them) at the cost of the rogue's movement. Bonus action hide (behind total cover) and shoot is just another way to do the same thing while retaining a bit of extra movement.
However, most DMs will rule that you are no longer hidden if you have to move any more that just popping out of cover to make the attack. I don't know anyone who allows a bonus action hide followed by moving in to make a melee attack for example unless the character is invisible and succeeded on the hide check. The rules explicitly state that creature's are constantly looking around them so if you have to move any significant distance to make the attack you won't be hidden. (This is also the basis for DMs ruling that as soon as you are seen you aren't hidden).
If you happen to be an arcane trickster rogue then using an owl familiar to give you a fly by help action is another way to obtain advantage on your attack roll.
Just take skulker, make yourself lightly obscured, and bonus action hide with cunning action. DM can't argue with that.
DMing:
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle
Playing:
None sadly.
Optimization Guides:
Literally Too Angry to Die - A Guide to Optimizing a Barbarian
I'd encourage a frank discussion with the GM around how to take advantage of hiding. I am sympathetic to the interpretation that hiding has prerequisites like being obscured that aren't always available in combat. However, the rogue's cunning action is a feature designed to take advantage of being able to hide. You're right that without access to it, rogues are less effective full stop. Either there's a middle ground to be found, or you should switch classes if you want to remain part of this adventure...
Swashbuckler Rogue doesn't need to hide, I've been playing one from level 2-15 in a campaign and have only hidden in combat... once? I think. While yes, hiding is an important feature of rogue it is not strictly required - in fact thinking about it, most rogue subclasses give an option to get sneak attacks without hiding.