Alright, I already know what the book says "advantage on all checks made to produce forgeries or duplicates of existing objects", the problem is what limitations does this have coming from a player perspective?
If I see a sword can I make a replica of the sword, or do I need to spend gold to make it and have smith's tools or smith tool proficiency
What about a magic ring? Would I just make a ring that looks like the magic ring but not have magic? Or does duplicating an existing magic ring mean this ring must have magic as well and if so then where does the magic come from?
If another race wanted to created a bow for example but didn't have woodcarver's kit or proficiency could they still make one? Does the tool proficiency simply add proficiency bonus to making the item to succeed on say an intelligence check to craft a bow? If a DM decided that making a bow was a DC of let's say 14 intelligence check and someone made a roll resulting in a 20 would that mean they made a bow or would it only work if they spent say 25 gp (half the cost of a longbow).
Going back to Kenku how indistinguishable would the copy object be from the real one? If a Kenku replicated a dagger with a hidden compartment in the hilt for example would the fake dagger also have this compartment as well or would it not have it thus the fake could easily be detected. Would passive investigation checks allow others to immediately tell the fake from the original?
Does a Kenku need to watch someone make an item to duplicate that item, or can they simply replicate an item they find?
If a Kenku is able to duplicate a creature's craftwork does that mean a Kenku could draw an insignia on a shield with pen and ink onto a sheet of paper or is that not duplicating the craftwork? Is specifically making another shield the craft work and if a Kenku doesn't have the gold, tools or profiency to make the item does that render the Expert Forgery ability useless?
What would be a fair and balanced compromise between the player and DM for how Expert Forgery functions? I know I shouldn't say what I am looking for if I want honest answers but still to me a balance would be allowing the player plenty of oppurtunities to use this ability without breaking the world economy e.g. making a bunch of high price items and selling them to the point where that item basically becomes worthless or have it where instead of the party buying anything the Kenku just makes a copy of the thing in shop anyway.
It doesn’t let you do anything anyone else couldn’t do. You still have to follow the normal procedure for making the item. You just have advantage on the check to do so. Whether or not the relevant tool proficiencies are strictly required is entirely up to your DM. I personally wouldn’t require proficiency to make an attempt at crafting (for anyone, not just kenku), though obviously the crafter wouldn’t have as substantial a bonus.
Basically, nothing about the kenku feature changes how crafting works. The actual process of making things is the same for everyone, and the official rules are extremely vague on the topic. It’s mostly up to the DM to establish the process. But the kenku ability does not CHANGE that process; it just confers advantage when the kenku is making a copy of something they already have.
What Saga said. You don't copy magic, and you still have to follow the laws of cause and effect (you can't forge an item's characteristic you don't know about like a hidden compartment, but if you do know about it...).
So you can only copy an item if you already have it which means spending gold before on getting the item you want to copy then half gold to make it, then if you do copy the item you copy just the appearance from what I am getting because you don't duplicate hidden features the item has so it just looks like the item but the fake could have things missing.
If a Kenku wanted to duplicate a metal shield with a symbol of a sun on it but only had access to wood, would this mean they cannot copy the item or would it mean they craft a wooden shield with the sun symbol etched into the grain or painted on?
If a Kenku tried to copy a magic item such as a ring would they just make an ordinary ring? Would they not be able to craft the item at all because either they copy ALL the item or CANNOT copy at all? Then since magic can't be copied it would mean the item cannot be crafted, period.
Think of it less like a Kenku is capable of recreating objects completely, but rather that, similar to their vocal ability to copy voices near-perfectly, they can copy the purely visual aspects of objects they see.
Think of it a bit like... mimicking someone who speaks a language that the Kenku doesn't actually understand. If a Kenku hears a phrase in Dwarvish but doesn't actually speak the language... they can repeat that one specific phrase, but they have no idea what any of the words mean or even distinguish between individual words, but they can copy it.
That said, the Kenku is still limited to any skill set they already possess. For example, creating a replica of a sword... assuming that the Kenku is proficient with smithing tools and has access to a forge, they would have advantage if attempting to replicate the look, feel, etc. of the sword. It's no ta guarantee, however... they would still have to roll, but they simply roll with advantage.
I would think this would also mean that a Kenku who's proficient with woodworking tools but not smithing tools could attempt to carve a wooden replica... which, to be fair... any race is capable of at least attempting such a thing. Kenkus just have advantage when doing so.
So you can only copy an item if you already have it which means spending gold before on getting the item you want to copy then half gold to make it, then if you do copy the item you copy just the appearance from what I am getting because you don't duplicate hidden features the item has so it just looks like the item but the fake could have things missing.
If a Kenku wanted to duplicate a metal shield with a symbol of a sun on it but only had access to wood, would this mean they cannot copy the item or would it mean they craft a wooden shield with the sun symbol etched into the grain or painted on?
If a Kenku tried to copy a magic item such as a ring would they just make an ordinary ring? Would they not be able to craft the item at all because either they copy ALL the item or CANNOT copy at all? Then since magic can't be copied it would mean the item cannot be crafted, period.
You don't necessarily need to have the item with you to copy it, you just need to know what it looks like etc. Forging follows all the normal rules of crafting an item with an additional tool check to see how accurate of a forgery it is. That is all.
You can copy hidden features of items IF you know about them.
You can possibly make wood look like metal from a distance, but it will definitely be figured out if handled. That is just common sense.
If the DM allows crafting magic items, then you can follow the magic item crafting rules to make a magic item with the same properties as the original item. Then forgery check to see how accurate the appearance is.
The purpose of forgery is to copy appearance, everything else is just normal crafting rules. Copying the magic effect is not a requirement to copy the appearance.
You are treating the trait like it supernaturally produces a copy of an item and therefore has strict rules it needs to follow, but it isn't. Making a copy is a normal thing anyone can do, and kenku just have advantage on the check.
I ask about it because I read something a person said that if you taught a Kenku how to make blue shirts that's all they would know how to do, so if you ran out of blue fabric the Kenku wouldn't know how to make shirts because they only saw how to make a blue shirt and not one that is red or green or black or any other color.
Advantage on likeness of an object vs duplicating the object with tools isn't quite the same. If going by the rules of duplication only then some items just wouldn't be duplicated at all, it would be like only knowing how to make blue shirts but being out of blue and never deciding to just make the shirts red from then on because it's not a "true copy". Then, likeness of an object could be where if a Kenku was proficient in painting he could make a painting of a weapon copying it's likeness. Of course any one could tell it's just a painting and not the weapon but the details would still be maintained. This case it's not exactly the same as the original, a painting is just painting, a sword made of wood would be treated as a club or quarterstaff at best with the outlook of the original, and even the best forged replica could be found as a fake by someone who investigates the blade (the copy looks fresh and new while the original has been beaten and worn from years of battle).
The only thing that seems to make sense with how their race is they cannot craft their own items, like the features and likeness would be borrowed from other races ergo a Kenku can't just decide to make a sword they would need to see a sword and decide to copy how that sword looks, they can't imagine their own sword with their mind's eye. After that the spark of creativity gets confusing.
They're definitely a complicated race, since the "lack of creativity" is such a hard concept to wrap your head around. I think it helps to break it up into parts... rather than say a Kenku only knows how to make blue shirts, they know how to sew. They know the pattern of fabric necessary for a shirt. I'm sure there are some particularly uncreative types who just shut down once they run out of blue fabric, but they're not robots. They're still living creatures with some intuition.
How long would it take to replicate a book? do they have to spend the same amount of time scribing like other scriber's hand writing a copy of a book? or would it be expedited like how that robot from i-robot drew its picture?
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Alright, I already know what the book says "advantage on all checks made to produce forgeries or duplicates of existing objects", the problem is what limitations does this have coming from a player perspective?
If I see a sword can I make a replica of the sword, or do I need to spend gold to make it and have smith's tools or smith tool proficiency
What about a magic ring? Would I just make a ring that looks like the magic ring but not have magic? Or does duplicating an existing magic ring mean this ring must have magic as well and if so then where does the magic come from?
If another race wanted to created a bow for example but didn't have woodcarver's kit or proficiency could they still make one? Does the tool proficiency simply add proficiency bonus to making the item to succeed on say an intelligence check to craft a bow? If a DM decided that making a bow was a DC of let's say 14 intelligence check and someone made a roll resulting in a 20 would that mean they made a bow or would it only work if they spent say 25 gp (half the cost of a longbow).
Going back to Kenku how indistinguishable would the copy object be from the real one? If a Kenku replicated a dagger with a hidden compartment in the hilt for example would the fake dagger also have this compartment as well or would it not have it thus the fake could easily be detected. Would passive investigation checks allow others to immediately tell the fake from the original?
Does a Kenku need to watch someone make an item to duplicate that item, or can they simply replicate an item they find?
If a Kenku is able to duplicate a creature's craftwork does that mean a Kenku could draw an insignia on a shield with pen and ink onto a sheet of paper or is that not duplicating the craftwork? Is specifically making another shield the craft work and if a Kenku doesn't have the gold, tools or profiency to make the item does that render the Expert Forgery ability useless?
What would be a fair and balanced compromise between the player and DM for how Expert Forgery functions? I know I shouldn't say what I am looking for if I want honest answers but still to me a balance would be allowing the player plenty of oppurtunities to use this ability without breaking the world economy e.g. making a bunch of high price items and selling them to the point where that item basically becomes worthless or have it where instead of the party buying anything the Kenku just makes a copy of the thing in shop anyway.
It doesn’t let you do anything anyone else couldn’t do. You still have to follow the normal procedure for making the item. You just have advantage on the check to do so. Whether or not the relevant tool proficiencies are strictly required is entirely up to your DM. I personally wouldn’t require proficiency to make an attempt at crafting (for anyone, not just kenku), though obviously the crafter wouldn’t have as substantial a bonus.
Basically, nothing about the kenku feature changes how crafting works. The actual process of making things is the same for everyone, and the official rules are extremely vague on the topic. It’s mostly up to the DM to establish the process. But the kenku ability does not CHANGE that process; it just confers advantage when the kenku is making a copy of something they already have.
What Saga said. You don't copy magic, and you still have to follow the laws of cause and effect (you can't forge an item's characteristic you don't know about like a hidden compartment, but if you do know about it...).
So you can only copy an item if you already have it which means spending gold before on getting the item you want to copy then half gold to make it, then if you do copy the item you copy just the appearance from what I am getting because you don't duplicate hidden features the item has so it just looks like the item but the fake could have things missing.
If a Kenku wanted to duplicate a metal shield with a symbol of a sun on it but only had access to wood, would this mean they cannot copy the item or would it mean they craft a wooden shield with the sun symbol etched into the grain or painted on?
If a Kenku tried to copy a magic item such as a ring would they just make an ordinary ring? Would they not be able to craft the item at all because either they copy ALL the item or CANNOT copy at all? Then since magic can't be copied it would mean the item cannot be crafted, period.
Think of it less like a Kenku is capable of recreating objects completely, but rather that, similar to their vocal ability to copy voices near-perfectly, they can copy the purely visual aspects of objects they see.
Think of it a bit like... mimicking someone who speaks a language that the Kenku doesn't actually understand. If a Kenku hears a phrase in Dwarvish but doesn't actually speak the language... they can repeat that one specific phrase, but they have no idea what any of the words mean or even distinguish between individual words, but they can copy it.
That said, the Kenku is still limited to any skill set they already possess. For example, creating a replica of a sword... assuming that the Kenku is proficient with smithing tools and has access to a forge, they would have advantage if attempting to replicate the look, feel, etc. of the sword. It's no ta guarantee, however... they would still have to roll, but they simply roll with advantage.
I would think this would also mean that a Kenku who's proficient with woodworking tools but not smithing tools could attempt to carve a wooden replica... which, to be fair... any race is capable of at least attempting such a thing. Kenkus just have advantage when doing so.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
You don't necessarily need to have the item with you to copy it, you just need to know what it looks like etc. Forging follows all the normal rules of crafting an item with an additional tool check to see how accurate of a forgery it is. That is all.
You can copy hidden features of items IF you know about them.
You can possibly make wood look like metal from a distance, but it will definitely be figured out if handled. That is just common sense.
If the DM allows crafting magic items, then you can follow the magic item crafting rules to make a magic item with the same properties as the original item. Then forgery check to see how accurate the appearance is.
The purpose of forgery is to copy appearance, everything else is just normal crafting rules. Copying the magic effect is not a requirement to copy the appearance.
You are treating the trait like it supernaturally produces a copy of an item and therefore has strict rules it needs to follow, but it isn't. Making a copy is a normal thing anyone can do, and kenku just have advantage on the check.
I ask about it because I read something a person said that if you taught a Kenku how to make blue shirts that's all they would know how to do, so if you ran out of blue fabric the Kenku wouldn't know how to make shirts because they only saw how to make a blue shirt and not one that is red or green or black or any other color.
Advantage on likeness of an object vs duplicating the object with tools isn't quite the same. If going by the rules of duplication only then some items just wouldn't be duplicated at all, it would be like only knowing how to make blue shirts but being out of blue and never deciding to just make the shirts red from then on because it's not a "true copy". Then, likeness of an object could be where if a Kenku was proficient in painting he could make a painting of a weapon copying it's likeness. Of course any one could tell it's just a painting and not the weapon but the details would still be maintained. This case it's not exactly the same as the original, a painting is just painting, a sword made of wood would be treated as a club or quarterstaff at best with the outlook of the original, and even the best forged replica could be found as a fake by someone who investigates the blade (the copy looks fresh and new while the original has been beaten and worn from years of battle).
The only thing that seems to make sense with how their race is they cannot craft their own items, like the features and likeness would be borrowed from other races ergo a Kenku can't just decide to make a sword they would need to see a sword and decide to copy how that sword looks, they can't imagine their own sword with their mind's eye. After that the spark of creativity gets confusing.
They're definitely a complicated race, since the "lack of creativity" is such a hard concept to wrap your head around. I think it helps to break it up into parts... rather than say a Kenku only knows how to make blue shirts, they know how to sew. They know the pattern of fabric necessary for a shirt. I'm sure there are some particularly uncreative types who just shut down once they run out of blue fabric, but they're not robots. They're still living creatures with some intuition.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
How long would it take to replicate a book? do they have to spend the same amount of time scribing like other scriber's hand writing a copy of a book? or would it be expedited like how that robot from i-robot drew its picture?