With a new game getting ready to start, I'd like to ask about a mechanic that seems to be a bit tough to nail down RAW.
Assuming you have a typical party with a metal-armored character with no Stealth at all and several characters with mediocre or no Stealth but generating less noise (like a Wizard), how far ahead of the party should the sneaky guy be in order to fully utilize their Stealth features? There are tons of rules on light and how much area it covers but noise is a bit more sparse. I'm not thinking about breaking line of sight if possible but a Rogue that can't stealth at all because they're stuck with a noisy party seems...underwhelming.
There is no hard and fast rule on this specific question but there is many rules that can be taken in consideration by a DM in order to determine this. First you must determine if anyone is trying to be stealthy or not, the limit of visions or audible distance etc. The Dungeon Master Screen offers some guidelines on this;
Visibility Outdoors: When traveling outdoors, characters can see about 2 miles in any direction on a clear day, or until the point where trees, hills, or other obstructions block their view. Rain normally cuts maximum visibility down to 1 mile, and fog can cut it down to between 100 and 300 feet. On a clear day, the characters can see 40 miles if they are atop a mountain or a tall hill, or are otherwise able to look down on the area around them from a height.
Audible Distances: Basically, when a character is trying to be quiet, they can typically only be heard 2d6 x 5ft (35ft) away, when they're at a normal noise level it's 2d6 x 10ft (70ft), and being really loud is 2d6 x 50ft (350ft).
The Dungeon Master Guide also offers guidelines on noticing other creatures;
Noticing Other Creatures: While exploring, characters might encounter other creatures. An important question in such a situation is who notices whom. Indoors, whether the sides can see one another usually depends on the configuration of rooms and passageways. Vision might also be limited by light sources. Outdoor visibility can be hampered by terrain, weather, and time of day. Creatures can be more likely to hear one another before they see anything. If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player's Handbook.
Finally the Player's Handbook has many rules on Perception, Surprice;
Hiding: You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position.
When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM com pares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive W isdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter
Noticing Threats: Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature follow ing the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot. W hile traveling at a fast pace, characters take a - 5 penalty to their passive W isdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.
Encountering Creatures: If the DM determines that the adventurers encounter other creatures while they’re traveling, it’s up to both groups to decide what happens next. Either group might decide to attack, initiate a conversation, run away, or wait to see what the other group does. Surprising Foes. If the adventurers encounter a hostile creature or group, the DM determines whether the adventurers or their foes might be surprised when com bat erupts. S ee chapter 9 for m ore about surprise.
Also in Dungeon Master Screen is encounter distances guidelines ;:
Arctic, desert, farmland, or grassland. 6d6 × 10 feet
There's a few options here. The spell Pass Without Trace is good for helping a party with Darkvision move through unlit or dimly lit places while preserving an element of surprise. The wizard can send their familiar ahead with the sneaky guy to help with recon. Really, if you want your sneaky guy to perform to their best, they probably will need to move up out of line of sight so they can do a bit of covert scouting. This will be a bit of a balancing act and learning experience for the whole table, but that's part of the game. Sometimes you have to let one player go off solo for a bit. There's not really a single hard number you can stick with, particularly if the DM prefers to go "theater of the mind" outside of combat rather than spend a lot of time on maps.
40'-60' doesn't seem to be too bad as long as there aren't a ton of twists and turns. I understand that being sneaky ALL the time isn't feasible but in past games, the sneaky party members didn't get any real benefits in dungeons or tight places..****y when we were outside and had more control over the scene of the fight.
40'-60' doesn't seem to be too bad as long as there aren't a ton of twists and turns. I understand that being sneaky ALL the time isn't feasible but in past games, the sneaky party members didn't get any real benefits in dungeons or tight places..****y when we were outside and had more control over the scene of the fight.
I mean, that's just how ambushes go, typically. If you're moving through someone else's turf, you're gonna have a hard time getting the drop on them like that, and it's up to the DM to design terrain that makes it possible at all.
You could just do range just outside the sneaky guys movement range, or twice that. So if they are detected they are more than just one move away from the party so there is some semblance of danger to that character. But not so great that they can easily die or just decide stealth just isn’t worth it to try.
There is no hard and fast rule on this specific question but there is many rules that can be taken in consideration by a DM in order to determine this. First you must determine if anyone is trying to be stealthy or not, the limit of visions or audible distance etc. The Dungeon Master Screen offers some guidelines on this;
Visibility Outdoors: When traveling outdoors, characters can see about 2 miles in any direction on a clear day, or until the point where trees, hills, or other obstructions block their view. Rain normally cuts maximum visibility down to 1 mile, and fog can cut it down to between 100 and 300 feet. On a clear day, the characters can see 40 miles if they are atop a mountain or a tall hill, or are otherwise able to look down on the area around them from a height.
Audible Distances: Basically, when a character is trying to be quiet, they can typically only be heard 2d6 x 5ft (35ft) away, when they're at a normal noise level it's 2d6 x 10ft (70ft), and being really loud is 2d6 x 50ft (350ft).
The Dungeon Master Guide also offers guidelines on noticing other creatures;
Noticing Other Creatures: While exploring, characters might encounter other creatures. An important question in such a situation is who notices whom. Indoors, whether the sides can see one another usually depends on the configuration of rooms and passageways. Vision might also be limited by light sources. Outdoor visibility can be hampered by terrain, weather, and time of day. Creatures can be more likely to hear one another before they see anything. If neither side is being stealthy, creatures automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. Otherwise, compare the Dexterity (Stealth) check results of the creatures in the group that is hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the other group, as explained in the Player's Handbook.
Finally the Player's Handbook has many rules on Perception, Surprice;
Hiding: You can’t hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position.
When you hide, there’s a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score
Surprise: If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM com pares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive W isdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter
Noticing Threats: Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank. For example, as the characters are exploring a maze of tunnels, the DM might decide that only those characters in the back rank have a chance to hear or spot a stealthy creature follow ing the group, while characters in the front and middle ranks cannot. W hile traveling at a fast pace, characters take a - 5 penalty to their passive W isdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.
Encountering Creatures: If the DM determines that the adventurers encounter other creatures while they’re traveling, it’s up to both groups to decide what happens next. Either group might decide to attack, initiate a conversation, run away, or wait to see what the other group does. Surprising Foes. If the adventurers encounter a hostile creature or group, the DM determines whether the adventurers or their foes might be surprised when com bat erupts. S ee chapter 9 for m ore about surprise.
Also in Dungeon Master Screen is encounter distances guidelines ;:
Arctic, desert, farmland, or grassland. 6d6 × 10 feet
Forest, swamp, or woodland. 2d8 × 10 feet
Hills or wastelands. 2d10 × 10 feet
Jungle. 2d6 × 10 feet
Mountains. 4d10 × 10 feet
That was probably the single best response I’ve ever seen regarding 5Es somewhat non user friendly system. Incredibly relevant and concise.
at the risk of ruining the response I’m going to add a couple more references that might help. I’ve used the underwater table in areas that have especially dense foliage in jungles to include maximum vision distance.
STRONG WIND A strong wind imposes disadvantage on ranged weapon attack rolls and Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing. A strong wind also extinguishes open flames, disperses fog, and makes flying by nonmagical means nearly impossible. A flying creature in a strong wind must land at the end of its turn or fall. A strong wind in a desert can create a sandstorm that imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
HEAVY PRECIPITATION Everything within an area of heavy rain or heavy snowfall is lightly obscured, and creatures in the area have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. Heavy rain also extinguishes open flames and imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing.
UNDERWATER VISIBILITY visibility underwater depends on water clarity and the available light. Unless the characters have light sources, use the Underwater Encounter Distance table to determine the distance at which characters underwater become aware of a possible encounter.
Underwater encounter distance Clear water, bright light 60ft. Clear water, dim light 30ft. Murky water or no light 10ft
Several hundred feet. depending on the surface being walked, echo of location, and any back ground noise.
When I have been in the woods bow hunting in the fall you can hear a squirrel moving along the ground a hundred feet or more away. You can hear a deer coming through the same terrain a lot less but at 20 feet you can certainly hear them. Then an adult black bear can be only feet away from your tree and you don't know it is there until you see it.
You have party a member wearing heavy armor they are going to be making a good amount of noise. They will be heard a lot further away in an enclosed space.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
With a new game getting ready to start, I'd like to ask about a mechanic that seems to be a bit tough to nail down RAW.
Assuming you have a typical party with a metal-armored character with no Stealth at all and several characters with mediocre or no Stealth but generating less noise (like a Wizard), how far ahead of the party should the sneaky guy be in order to fully utilize their Stealth features? There are tons of rules on light and how much area it covers but noise is a bit more sparse. I'm not thinking about breaking line of sight if possible but a Rogue that can't stealth at all because they're stuck with a noisy party seems...underwhelming.
Thanks in advance.
There is no hard and fast rule on this specific question but there is many rules that can be taken in consideration by a DM in order to determine this. First you must determine if anyone is trying to be stealthy or not, the limit of visions or audible distance etc. The Dungeon Master Screen offers some guidelines on this;
The Dungeon Master Guide also offers guidelines on noticing other creatures;
Finally the Player's Handbook has many rules on Perception, Surprice;
Also in Dungeon Master Screen is encounter distances guidelines ;:
40'-60' doesn't seem to be too bad as long as there aren't a ton of twists and turns. I understand that being sneaky ALL the time isn't feasible but in past games, the sneaky party members didn't get any real benefits in dungeons or tight places..****y when we were outside and had more control over the scene of the fight.
I mean, that's just how ambushes go, typically. If you're moving through someone else's turf, you're gonna have a hard time getting the drop on them like that, and it's up to the DM to design terrain that makes it possible at all.
That’s why Pass Without Trace is one of the best spells in the game.
You could just do range just outside the sneaky guys movement range, or twice that. So if they are detected they are more than just one move away from the party so there is some semblance of danger to that character. But not so great that they can easily die or just decide stealth just isn’t worth it to try.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That was probably the single best response I’ve ever seen regarding 5Es somewhat non user friendly system. Incredibly relevant and concise.
at the risk of ruining the response I’m going to add a couple more references that might help. I’ve used the underwater table in areas that have especially dense foliage in jungles to include maximum vision distance.
STRONG WIND
A strong wind imposes disadvantage on ranged weapon attack rolls and Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing. A strong wind also extinguishes open flames, disperses fog, and makes flying by nonmagical means nearly impossible. A flying creature in a strong wind must land at the end of its turn or fall.
A strong wind in a desert can create a sandstorm that imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
HEAVY PRECIPITATION
Everything within an area of heavy rain or heavy snowfall is lightly obscured, and creatures in the area have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. Heavy rain also extinguishes open flames and imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing.
UNDERWATER VISIBILITY
visibility underwater depends on water clarity and the available light. Unless the characters have light sources, use the Underwater Encounter Distance table to determine the distance at which characters underwater become aware of a possible encounter.
Underwater encounter distance
Clear water, bright light 60ft.
Clear water, dim light 30ft.
Murky water or no light 10ft
Several hundred feet. depending on the surface being walked, echo of location, and any back ground noise.
When I have been in the woods bow hunting in the fall you can hear a squirrel moving along the ground a hundred feet or more away. You can hear a deer coming through the same terrain a lot less but at 20 feet you can certainly hear them. Then an adult black bear can be only feet away from your tree and you don't know it is there until you see it.
You have party a member wearing heavy armor they are going to be making a good amount of noise. They will be heard a lot further away in an enclosed space.