We had an interesting situation in last night's session which gave me a bunch of questions about how Dominate Person actually works.
Quick synopsis of the situation: our party has been tracking a BBEG lieutenant for a while, finally we catch up to her. Three players (Party A consisting of Wizard + 2 others) had hatched a plan to fight for the Lieutenant and PVP ambush the other six players (Party B consisting of Paladin, Sorcerer + 4 others). Party A gets a full round of combat actions due to Surprise, and starts off by having the Wizard cast Dominate Person on the Paladin. Sorcerer of Party B upcast subtle spell counterspelled it, Party B slaughtered them 6v3, and everything worked out great. Those details aren't super important but I have a bunch of questions about how Dominate Person would have worked if the Wizard had actually gotten the spell off and think it's easier to contextualize with a real-life example
1. Dominate Person says that the target gets advantage on saving throw if fighting against the caster. Would Paladin get advantage on initial saving throw since it initiated hostile fighting? Or no advantage since it was the first surprise attack and there was no fighting yet at the time of the spell cast?
2. (assuming answer #1 is no advantage) If Paladin failed initial saving throw but later takes damage to get a new saving throw, is this one now at advantage since there is clearly combat ongoing? Or no advantage since the initial charm happened without combat?
3. Assume Wizard uses their free action to give Paladin a general command. When is the first time the Paladin has to act? Does he act during the Surprise Round since he is now on Party A? Or not until Round 1 on his natural turn in the initiative order?
4. Assume Wizard gives the Paladin a general command to flee away from combat and the Paladin's turn comes up so he runs away. Does the spell break once Paladin runs >60 feet away? Or is that only the range for initial casting?
5. Assume Wizard gives the Paladin a general command to attack the Sorcerer. How specific can the Wizard's directions be on this? Could the Paladin do a weak attack like punching/grappling or have to use main weapon? Does he have to use extra attacks? Does he have to Divine Smite?
I'd say it's a straight roll. But "when does the fighting start" feels more like a question for a DM (you) than the rules.
The save when you take damage is separate from the save at the start of the spell, so the "advantage if fighting" rule isn't applicable. It's a straight roll.
The Paladin does not act during the "surprise round." That's not even really a thing in 5e, it's just those who are surprised and those who are not, which is determined at the rolling of initiative.
Ranges are only for initial castings, unless otherwise stated.
The dominated person "does its best to obey" the command. With that in mind, I'd say that a command to attack would be easily satisfied by a punch, whereas a command to kill would force the dominated person to use everything at their disposal in order to defeat the target. Also worth keeping in mind that the commands of dominate person are not perpetual; they only have an effect on the dominated person until they are completed. Therefore, if the Paladin were commanded to attack the Sorcerer, I imagine it going something like
Paladin says "your wish is my command," goes up and punches the Sorcerer once
Paladin stops doing anything
Wizard uses free action during Paladin's turn to be more specific, saying "now attack with your sword and divine smite"
Paladin complies, using extra attack to attack the Sorcerer again with sword and divine smite
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Also worth keeping in mind that the commands of dominate person are not perpetual; they only have an effect on the dominated person until they are completed.
Ooh that's a good point, a better example would probably be if Wizard had said "kill the Sorcerer", that seems like a smarter command to give. I'd still have the same confusion though about how hard the Paladin has to min/max their character's single-turn damage output
Is the Wizard allowed to dictate something as specific as "attack with your sword and divine smite" with the free action? That does not feel like "simple and general course of action", feels much more like the "total and precise control" that requires the Wizard to use his action. I suppose this one is probably a completely gray area that's just up to the DM. For what it's worth I wasn't the DM in this situation, I was in Party B
Also worth keeping in mind that the commands of dominate person are not perpetual; they only have an effect on the dominated person until they are completed.
Ooh that's a good point, a better example would probably be if Wizard had said "kill the Sorcerer", that seems like a smarter command to give. I'd still have the same confusion though about how hard the Paladin has to min/max their character's single-turn damage output
Is the Wizard allowed to dictate something as specific as "attack with your sword and divine smite" with the free action? That does not feel like "simple and general course of action", feels much more like the "total and precise control" that requires the Wizard to use his action. I suppose this one is probably a completely gray area that's just up to the DM. For what it's worth I wasn't the DM in this situation, I was in Party B
Well, if the Paladin were commanded to "kill the Sorcerer," then according to the spell they would have to do their best to obey, so I'd say that they'd try to kill the Sorcerer just as effectively as the Paladin would try to kill anything else.
"Simple and general course of action" is definitely the kind of thing where the DM always says what works and what doesn't. I suppose "attack with your sword and divine smite" would probably be too specific, on account of it more or less dictating the whole action, but I'd say "attack to hurt" or "kill" are both general enough to work.
By the way, sorry for assuming you were the DM.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Honestly, given that "attack that creature" is listed as an example command, I would say "with lethal force" should fall under the "to the best of its ability" portion of the effect. This isn't a spell like Geas that leaves a lot of room for independent agency/interpretation. The fact that you have a psychic link also suggests to me that they can't really play the "I thought you meant game". Plus, purely in general terms, playing word semantics seems like a good way to just turn the whole matter adversarial.
This isn't a spell like Geas that leaves a lot of room for independent agency/interpretation. The fact that you have a psychic link also suggests to me that they can't really play the "I thought you meant game". Plus, purely in general terms, playing word semantics seems like a good way to just turn the whole matter adversarial.
Even without playing word semantics or meta-gaming, there's massive amounts of room for interpretation about which abilities you choose to use in combat even when you AREN'T mind controlled and actually do want to kill the target you're facing. With multiple powerful once per short/long rest abilities and spell slots, there are many potential routes that one would consider choosing.
Really helpful discussion here though, I think I know the correct answer now, it's just turn over your character to the DM and let them decide.
Well, if the Paladin were commanded to "kill the Sorcerer," then according to the spell they would have to do their best to obey, so I'd say that they'd try to kill the Sorcerer just as effectively as the Paladin would try to kill anything else.
Well for example in this situation when the Paladin did get his turn to attack, he used Haste, only one attack, and did not divine smite. Not the highest Turn 1 damage but a more effective strategy for a drawn out battle (that never materialized but he didn't know this at the time). So I'd argue that "doing your best to obey" or fighting "just as effectively" are nearly useless definitions that don't help whatsoever, other than ruling out cheesy tactics like punching or something like that. If it comes up again I'd just rely on the DM to decide - answers above to numbers 1-4 were super helpful though, thanks!
I just wanted to chime in a bit on the mechanics of your example scenario that actually happened in your game. In particular, the 5e rules for Surprise.
Your scenario starts off when 3 players "PVP ambush the other six players". The typical scenario that is detailed in the rules involves the creatures who set up the ambush rolling stealth checks (could be a single check, a group check, or individual checks as requested by the DM). These stealth checks are individually contested by the Passive Perception of all members Party B -- it's common for some members of Party B to be surprised while other members of Party B are not surprised. There is some wiggle room with this however and maybe the DM just situationally decided that everyone in Party B was surprised or maybe Party A's stealth was just that good. So, we'll assume that everyone in Party B was surprised.
Next, everyone is supposed to roll for initiative that this point. There is no such thing as a "Surprise Round" in 5e. During the first round of combat, players who were surprised do not move or act and they are unable to use a Reaction until after their Turn in Round 1 has passed. This detail becomes extremely important in your scenario when a member of Party B attempts to cast Counterspell -- where was that Sorcerer in the initiative order? This wasn't specified in your example and it's quite possible that this was run incorrectly in your game in terms of RAW.
There are a few statements in your OP that kind of seem like red flags: "Party A gets a full round of combat actions due to Surprise", "since it was the first surprise attack and there was no fighting yet at the time of the spell cast?", "since there is clearly combat ongoing? Or no advantage since the initial charm happened without combat?", "Does he act during the Surprise Round since he is now on Party A? Or not until Round 1 on his natural turn in the initiative order?" All of these statements strongly indicate to me that your DM and your game is probably not correctly following the 5e rules for Surprise. That's probably the first thing to get cleaned up (or at least all get on the same page if homebrewing) before worrying about the specifics of Dominate Person.
1. Based on what was discussed above, it's important to note that the way it's supposed to work is that Dominate Person was actually cast during combat. Further, there is nothing in the rules for Surprise that would affect a creature's saving throws. A saving throw is like a reflex -- it just happens when the situation calls for it. If there is some circumstance that provides that a creature should get advantage on a saving throw, there is no reason why this would change when that creature is surprised.
2. Again, the initial charm should be happening in combat -- just review the rules for Surprise.
3. First, just because a creature is charmed doesn't mean that "he is now on Party A". I do remember playing some old school crpg video games where this was the effect of being hit by a Charm Person spell, but in 5e the "charmed" condition has specific consequences for that creature:
Charmed
A charmed creature can't attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.
The Dominate Person spell specifies some additional restrictions to the Charmed creature. But none of this necessarily means that allegiance has changed -- perhaps the creature is simply compelled to do certain specific things while charmed that he is mentally fighting against.
Anyways, as far as I can tell there is nothing about being Charmed that would eliminate the fact that the creature is currently Surprised. The rules for Surprise would play out as normal -- the creature cannot act or move during the first round of combat but its Reaction becomes available after their first Turn has passed.
4. As already answered by others, the Range of the spell is only for the initial casting unless otherwise specified. If not, a lot of commonly used spells such as Bless would be a lot worse than they are. Keep in mind that this is a concentration spell so there are additional ways that the spell could end early other than the target taking damage and making a save.
5. Question 5 is a great question and I think that this will just be up to the DM to adjudicate what constitutes a "simple and general" command and which commands require an action. He will also have to adjudicate what satisfies "does its best to obey". It seems to be written in a mildly open ended manner to encourage a bit of fun and creativity.
The way that I envision this playing out at a table is that the Player in control of the caster makes a general command. Then, the DM (NOT the player for the target creature) decides which actions are taken by the target creature as if they were a monster or NPC. If instead the caster's Player uses an action to take total control then that Player decides which actions are taken by the target creature as if it was their own PC.
I just wanted to chime in a bit on the mechanics of your example scenario that actually happened in your game. In particular, the 5e rules for Surprise.
<longer quote clipped off>
Ok yeah that's interesting, it does sound like we weren't doing Surprise following Rules As Written. When you describe the first round being normal initiative order and surprised players aren't able to do anything, that's just what I was calling "surprise round". Our DM did change a couple things from RAW though, he allowed Party A to choose the order of their attacks and allowed Party B to use reactions. I would bet the DM knew the proper rules but was just allowing modifications on the fly to fit the narrative better since Party A wasn't actually stealthed, everyone was walking together and they just coordinated a codeword to ambush Party B. I'd say those mods fit the situation better but this is super helpful for me trying to learn the actual rules. The sorcerer actually did roll higher initiative than the wizard so I think that means her counterspell should've gone off either way
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We had an interesting situation in last night's session which gave me a bunch of questions about how Dominate Person actually works.
Quick synopsis of the situation: our party has been tracking a BBEG lieutenant for a while, finally we catch up to her. Three players (Party A consisting of Wizard + 2 others) had hatched a plan to fight for the Lieutenant and PVP ambush the other six players (Party B consisting of Paladin, Sorcerer + 4 others). Party A gets a full round of combat actions due to Surprise, and starts off by having the Wizard cast Dominate Person on the Paladin. Sorcerer of Party B upcast subtle spell counterspelled it, Party B slaughtered them 6v3, and everything worked out great. Those details aren't super important but I have a bunch of questions about how Dominate Person would have worked if the Wizard had actually gotten the spell off and think it's easier to contextualize with a real-life example
1. Dominate Person says that the target gets advantage on saving throw if fighting against the caster. Would Paladin get advantage on initial saving throw since it initiated hostile fighting? Or no advantage since it was the first surprise attack and there was no fighting yet at the time of the spell cast?
2. (assuming answer #1 is no advantage) If Paladin failed initial saving throw but later takes damage to get a new saving throw, is this one now at advantage since there is clearly combat ongoing? Or no advantage since the initial charm happened without combat?
3. Assume Wizard uses their free action to give Paladin a general command. When is the first time the Paladin has to act? Does he act during the Surprise Round since he is now on Party A? Or not until Round 1 on his natural turn in the initiative order?
4. Assume Wizard gives the Paladin a general command to flee away from combat and the Paladin's turn comes up so he runs away. Does the spell break once Paladin runs >60 feet away? Or is that only the range for initial casting?
5. Assume Wizard gives the Paladin a general command to attack the Sorcerer. How specific can the Wizard's directions be on this? Could the Paladin do a weak attack like punching/grappling or have to use main weapon? Does he have to use extra attacks? Does he have to Divine Smite?
Tooltip for reference.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Ooh that's a good point, a better example would probably be if Wizard had said "kill the Sorcerer", that seems like a smarter command to give. I'd still have the same confusion though about how hard the Paladin has to min/max their character's single-turn damage output
Is the Wizard allowed to dictate something as specific as "attack with your sword and divine smite" with the free action? That does not feel like "simple and general course of action", feels much more like the "total and precise control" that requires the Wizard to use his action. I suppose this one is probably a completely gray area that's just up to the DM. For what it's worth I wasn't the DM in this situation, I was in Party B
Well, if the Paladin were commanded to "kill the Sorcerer," then according to the spell they would have to do their best to obey, so I'd say that they'd try to kill the Sorcerer just as effectively as the Paladin would try to kill anything else.
"Simple and general course of action" is definitely the kind of thing where the DM always says what works and what doesn't. I suppose "attack with your sword and divine smite" would probably be too specific, on account of it more or less dictating the whole action, but I'd say "attack to hurt" or "kill" are both general enough to work.
By the way, sorry for assuming you were the DM.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Honestly, given that "attack that creature" is listed as an example command, I would say "with lethal force" should fall under the "to the best of its ability" portion of the effect. This isn't a spell like Geas that leaves a lot of room for independent agency/interpretation. The fact that you have a psychic link also suggests to me that they can't really play the "I thought you meant game". Plus, purely in general terms, playing word semantics seems like a good way to just turn the whole matter adversarial.
Even without playing word semantics or meta-gaming, there's massive amounts of room for interpretation about which abilities you choose to use in combat even when you AREN'T mind controlled and actually do want to kill the target you're facing. With multiple powerful once per short/long rest abilities and spell slots, there are many potential routes that one would consider choosing.
Really helpful discussion here though, I think I know the correct answer now, it's just turn over your character to the DM and let them decide.
Well for example in this situation when the Paladin did get his turn to attack, he used Haste, only one attack, and did not divine smite. Not the highest Turn 1 damage but a more effective strategy for a drawn out battle (that never materialized but he didn't know this at the time). So I'd argue that "doing your best to obey" or fighting "just as effectively" are nearly useless definitions that don't help whatsoever, other than ruling out cheesy tactics like punching or something like that. If it comes up again I'd just rely on the DM to decide - answers above to numbers 1-4 were super helpful though, thanks!
I just wanted to chime in a bit on the mechanics of your example scenario that actually happened in your game. In particular, the 5e rules for Surprise.
Your scenario starts off when 3 players "PVP ambush the other six players". The typical scenario that is detailed in the rules involves the creatures who set up the ambush rolling stealth checks (could be a single check, a group check, or individual checks as requested by the DM). These stealth checks are individually contested by the Passive Perception of all members Party B -- it's common for some members of Party B to be surprised while other members of Party B are not surprised. There is some wiggle room with this however and maybe the DM just situationally decided that everyone in Party B was surprised or maybe Party A's stealth was just that good. So, we'll assume that everyone in Party B was surprised.
Next, everyone is supposed to roll for initiative that this point. There is no such thing as a "Surprise Round" in 5e. During the first round of combat, players who were surprised do not move or act and they are unable to use a Reaction until after their Turn in Round 1 has passed. This detail becomes extremely important in your scenario when a member of Party B attempts to cast Counterspell -- where was that Sorcerer in the initiative order? This wasn't specified in your example and it's quite possible that this was run incorrectly in your game in terms of RAW.
There are a few statements in your OP that kind of seem like red flags: "Party A gets a full round of combat actions due to Surprise", "since it was the first surprise attack and there was no fighting yet at the time of the spell cast?", "since there is clearly combat ongoing? Or no advantage since the initial charm happened without combat?", "Does he act during the Surprise Round since he is now on Party A? Or not until Round 1 on his natural turn in the initiative order?" All of these statements strongly indicate to me that your DM and your game is probably not correctly following the 5e rules for Surprise. That's probably the first thing to get cleaned up (or at least all get on the same page if homebrewing) before worrying about the specifics of Dominate Person.
1. Based on what was discussed above, it's important to note that the way it's supposed to work is that Dominate Person was actually cast during combat. Further, there is nothing in the rules for Surprise that would affect a creature's saving throws. A saving throw is like a reflex -- it just happens when the situation calls for it. If there is some circumstance that provides that a creature should get advantage on a saving throw, there is no reason why this would change when that creature is surprised.
2. Again, the initial charm should be happening in combat -- just review the rules for Surprise.
3. First, just because a creature is charmed doesn't mean that "he is now on Party A". I do remember playing some old school crpg video games where this was the effect of being hit by a Charm Person spell, but in 5e the "charmed" condition has specific consequences for that creature:
The Dominate Person spell specifies some additional restrictions to the Charmed creature. But none of this necessarily means that allegiance has changed -- perhaps the creature is simply compelled to do certain specific things while charmed that he is mentally fighting against.
Anyways, as far as I can tell there is nothing about being Charmed that would eliminate the fact that the creature is currently Surprised. The rules for Surprise would play out as normal -- the creature cannot act or move during the first round of combat but its Reaction becomes available after their first Turn has passed.
4. As already answered by others, the Range of the spell is only for the initial casting unless otherwise specified. If not, a lot of commonly used spells such as Bless would be a lot worse than they are. Keep in mind that this is a concentration spell so there are additional ways that the spell could end early other than the target taking damage and making a save.
5. Question 5 is a great question and I think that this will just be up to the DM to adjudicate what constitutes a "simple and general" command and which commands require an action. He will also have to adjudicate what satisfies "does its best to obey". It seems to be written in a mildly open ended manner to encourage a bit of fun and creativity.
The way that I envision this playing out at a table is that the Player in control of the caster makes a general command. Then, the DM (NOT the player for the target creature) decides which actions are taken by the target creature as if they were a monster or NPC. If instead the caster's Player uses an action to take total control then that Player decides which actions are taken by the target creature as if it was their own PC.
Ok yeah that's interesting, it does sound like we weren't doing Surprise following Rules As Written. When you describe the first round being normal initiative order and surprised players aren't able to do anything, that's just what I was calling "surprise round". Our DM did change a couple things from RAW though, he allowed Party A to choose the order of their attacks and allowed Party B to use reactions. I would bet the DM knew the proper rules but was just allowing modifications on the fly to fit the narrative better since Party A wasn't actually stealthed, everyone was walking together and they just coordinated a codeword to ambush Party B. I'd say those mods fit the situation better but this is super helpful for me trying to learn the actual rules. The sorcerer actually did roll higher initiative than the wizard so I think that means her counterspell should've gone off either way