So, this is a thread about developing out Mounted and Flying mechanics for combat. I thought I would post because my group has hit a bit of an impasse, and I figure it can't hurt to get additional thoughts and ideas. The standard 5e stuff doesn't work for us -- we have some players that want to have car chases and fight mounted battles with a bit more crunch to them.

 However, when it comes to Mounted and Flying, the creature's Dex sorta takes over right now (and we are arguing about the handler's Dex or AH skill versus the mount's Dex, but we all agree that Dex is the flying score, and we are aware that the default rules don't actually specify). Our issue is the DC for the maneuvers, and what the maneuvers should be. We are well aware that we are expanding the three options of mounted combat (dash, disengage, and dodge), and that isn't "rules as written" -- we aren't trying to keep that part, but we are continuing to use the rest of the existing mounted rules.

For Mounts, we have determined the following Maneuvers:

• Walk -- Normal Speed of Mount (which can be anything from giant birds to wolves, to horses to dinosaurs)
• Trot - Medium Speed
• Canter - Quick Speed. Invokes fatigue at 4 hours.
• Gallop - Full out speed. Invokes fatigue at 2 hours in our system.
• Dash -- as normal
• Disengage -- as normal
• Dodge -- as normal
• Shift -- Change speed up one or down one
• Stop - Stop mount
• Turn - Turn mount
• Spin - Spin Mount
• Jump -- Jump over something
• Collide -- run mount into/over something
• Close - Get close to a target (such as a person, other mount, or vehicle, in prep for something)

For Flying (which will include swimming and burrowing), we only have these:

• Turn
• Spin
• Surface
• Dive
• Hover

While we do have some basic outlines for attacks, those aren't our issues. We resolve them pretty much as normal. Our thing is the movement of the mounts and people and what our reference point will be for the difficulty check of doing these actions (the rolls add chance, variable outcomes, and drama -- again, the chase concept, weaving in and out of spaces for flyers while being pursued, or the equivalent of car chases or mounted fights).

 So what I am looking for are your thoughts (constructive, please),  on what we could use for the DC relating to the maneuvers (moves), if there are any movements we sora forgot in our focus blindness, and anything you would like to see in relation to a set of rules for mounted combat.

Just a quick thought on this -- you might want to factor in proficiencies for skills and tools such as Animal Handling or Vehicle proficiency.

Quote from up2ng >>

Just a quick thought on this -- you might want to factor in proficiencies for skills and tools such as Animal Handling or Vehicle proficiency.

 
yes, we are very big on proficiencies, lol. I myself wrote several guides when they were new, lol, so I can promise that.

honestly, the DC is the thing that is most frustrating. I have been holding out for a base — essentially, a DC 10 that maneuvers add on to based on speed of travel and difficulty of m Euler (so not very high, really) but the hard cases, lol, they want to tie it to a more concrete factor of some sort, or to an encounter rating (CR) which to me is kinda weird.

For flight, I seem to remember 3e having pretty detailed rules including turning radius, and a bit more depth. Of course the DCs would be based on 3e math, so not really port over. 

Are we just talking about in combat/doing something extraordinary here? Or are you looking for DCs to just hop on a horse and ride across town? And do you want people not proficient in animal handling to still have a reasonable chance to pull these off, or do you want everyone to be able to do it?

And I’d base all the checks on animal handling. I think the default there is wis, which makes sense to me, as it’s more about anticipating how the mount would react, and then adjusting. I could actually see cha working, showing an ability to get other creatures to do what you want. I guess dex can make sense, but honestly, dex is strong enough, why give it something more?

Can I ask, what, if anything, are you doing to make mounts less fragile? That’s my biggest problem is them just dying so easily. 

Quote from Xalthu >>

For flight, I seem to remember 3e having pretty detailed rules including turning radius, and a bit more depth. Of course the DCs would be based on 3e math, so not really port over. 

Are we just talking about in combat/doing something extraordinary here? Or are you looking for DCs to just hop on a horse and ride across town? And do you want people not proficient in animal handling to still have a reasonable chance to pull these off, or do you want everyone to be able to do it?

And I’d base all the checks on animal handling. I think the default there is wis, which makes sense to me, as it’s more about anticipating how the mount would react, and then adjusting. I could actually see cha working, showing an ability to get other creatures to do what you want. I guess dex can make sense, but honestly, dex is strong enough, why give it something more?

Can I ask, what, if anything, are you doing to make mounts less fragile? That’s my biggest problem is them just dying so easily. 

 
For the most part, this will only apply in situations where there is risk -- riding across town wouldn't, but riding across town while being chased by The Black Carriage would.

You raise an outstanding point about Dex, lol. Imma use that for certain.

On fragility, Horses, Ponies, Donkeys, Mules, War Lynx, Camels, Oxen, Giant Cassowary, and the other assorted Mounts are buffed a bit overall (like all the critters) but that's also part of why this matters. I tret them as subject to the same rules as the PCs around rests and long rests, so the long term stuff is good, and like a lot of folks my baddies don't normally target the animal (some do, but it is specific to them)

I don't know if it is enough (our playtesting has been promising, but I don't think the scenarios were meant to look into that). I don't think I will have a weekly Artax, at least -- but I might have a monthly one.

That said I do think the designers seriously underestimated Horses. Also, pigs. 

This helps.  THank you.

Can you clarify how these maneuvers will be defined in the game.  Are they actions, reactions, or just part of the player's move? 

I want to make sure I am understanding, cause in my mind I am thinking with the game format you are proposing these maneuvers might be taken as a reaction to avoid being attacked or chased; for example when the monster gets close to a player or attempts a ranged attack the the player can opt to dive, roll, or spin in an attempt to avoid.  Another example would be if they moving and the DM announced there is a trap or obstacle in which the player then attempts to steer the mount to avoid.  

How these maneuvers will be used during play would impact how the ability checks and associated DCs may be applied. 

Quote from petepan3 >>

Can you clarify how these maneuvers will be defined in the game.  Are they actions, reactions, or just part of the player's move? 

I want to make sure I am understanding, cause in my mind I am thinking with the game format you are proposing these maneuvers might be taken as a reaction to avoid being attacked or chased; for example when the monster gets close to a player or attempts a ranged attack the the player can opt to dive, roll, or spin in an attempt to avoid.  Another example would be if they moving and the DM announced there is a trap or obstacle in which the player then attempts to steer the mount to avoid.  

How these maneuvers will be used during play would impact how the ability checks and associated DCs may be applied. 

 
They are movement choices. Reactions, opportunity, bonus, and regular actions can all be taken in addition to them.

Your take is right, but for "routine" stuff (such as navigating round a seen trap), they normally wouldn't be applied.Most of this is for situation like your initial take -- being chased by a dragon or a squad of guards on horseback, or a group of thugs in a self driving carriage armed with crossbows, or a ship to ship battle at sea.

Two riders meeting in joust, or two people fighting in mid air while flying.

The combat stuff is fairly basic and simple, as are other actions like investigate and such. The trick here is purely around movement, and we are using the standard Speed stat as our basis (a speed of 30 is 30 feet per turn). 

Flying creatures have a minimum and a maximum speed.
Except for insects very few flying creatures have a hover capability.

As for creatures being squishy. Well they are not measured like characters  They are squishy. If possible add armor but they will never be as tough as a character. But you can switch things up and make a character a mount.

I would first classify the maneuvers into two groups.   

The first group would be a form of Acrobatics (though you can come up with another term) that is applied to the mount's DEX. This will apply to situations like moving through an opening, transversing an obstacle, and avoiding getting hit by a missile.  

The second group is based on Tactics and would apply to the riders skill (Animal Handling or DEX) to execute.  This is more about timing and gauging the response of an opponent.  

If you go down this approach, that means you might create similar maneuvers that fall under each category.  Like a Hard Roll (Mount DEX) is used to avoid a missile and the Barrel Roll (Rider's Score) is used to move so the chaser soars by it.  I might have articulated it well, but the point is make specified moves that define to one classification. 

One more thing, did you consider instead of traditional DC checks use a move budget system?  Say a maneuver has a cost of 25.  That means the executing this maneuver leaves you with only 5 movement. But now, roll a DEX or AH, and subtract that total value from the initial cost. So on a good roll, the player could save their entire movement; and on a bad roll they may be limited to only 5 or 10 and that still leaves them in danger of the enemy.  Playing with this might make for more "dog fighting" type scenarios as the amount of (or lack of) moment can apply to the characters ability to create the escape space between each other.  

Quote from petepan3 >>

I would first classify the maneuvers into two groups.   

The first group would be a form of Acrobatics (though you can come up with another term) that is applied to the mount's DEX. This will apply to situations like moving through an opening, transversing an obstacle, and avoiding getting hit by a missile.  

The second group is based on Tactics and would apply to the riders skill (Animal Handling or DEX) to execute.  This is more about timing and gauging the response of an opponent.  

If you go down this approach, that means you might create similar maneuvers that fall under each category.  Like a Hard Roll (Mount DEX) is used to avoid a missile and the Barrel Roll (Rider's Score) is used to move so the chaser soars by it.  I might have articulated it well, but the point is make specified moves that define to one classification. 

One more thing, did you consider instead of traditional DC checks use a move budget system?  Say a maneuver has a cost of 25.  That means the executing this maneuver leaves you with only 5 movement. But now, roll a DEX or AH, and subtract that total value from the initial cost. So on a good roll, the player could save their entire movement; and on a bad roll they may be limited to only 5 or 10 and that still leaves them in danger of the enemy.  Playing with this might make for more "dog fighting" type scenarios as the amount of (or lack of) moment can apply to the characters ability to create the escape space between each other.  

 
We did consider it. Even tested it a bit, but it wasn't as enjoyable because there wasn't a factor of chance involved, which is a thing we all like (and four of the six games have gods that are essentially the dice).

Will pass this on to the DM group :)